William’s Comments (group member since Mar 04, 2018)

William’s comments from the Written Gems group.

Interesting as always Chris. ERB wanted to explore long-lived characters, but never went to the well we all know about today- Elves!

OTOH, I love Gil's idea of post-construction by others. It's a great sign of respect that fans would come along to justify the wrinkles in one's legendarium. I wish someone could make sense of the contrary things I've done in my real life.

Fascinating explanation, Chris! It is indeed incredible that ERB correlated things as well as he did, but I never once understood that these other world existed in different dimensions.
It was stated I think in Barsoom the people are simply very long-lived, at least the red race. And John Carter was an anomaly, already pretty much immortal and no explanation offered there, while he was on "our" Earth.

Precisely! You put it very well, but I would think that really needs MORE explanation, and we get hardly any. There are references to sleep, eating, etc. here- not many, but it almost makes ERB look sloppy and I'm betting that's not it.

But I do haff anudder qvestunn, hold on... ::shakes off horrible accent ::

What is up with ERB and his concept of TIME in this world? As far as I could tell, because there's a "sun" that's up all the time, there is no no way to tell if a day, or a month, or a decade has passed? Is this serious? I was charmed by the notion but found myself getting a bit frustrated as he never described how this actually worked its way out.

I haff noo ideea vat yu mean, zir.

Fabulous Chris! I never thought you'd use the speed of your reading to measure the speed of the prospector. Good thing I didn't do the work, or they'd surely have died of asphyxiation.
At any rate, anything over 3 mph would be astonishing when you consider the average rate through solid rock.

That all makes sense, Chris, thanks. I'm still scratching my head about the motive power (steam, or maybe gas-powered). I also figure the speed was pretty darn good, I'm thinking it was around 20 mph, on average, even through solid rock?

The one thing these hollow-earth tales leave out is the pressure. It's unthinkable at that depth, no human life could exist for a heartbeat. But far be it from me to spoil anyone's fun!

Another topic: I thought the way the "mole" machine was described was intriguing. This "jacket" design where whatever the borer was breaking up passed between the inner and outer shell of the device really evoked something for me.
But some of what it evoked was confusion. ERB wasn't too big on motive powers, and I don't recall too much about a drill in front (though I assume there was one).
At any rate, it seemed to take a long time (another whole topic) to get "down there" but I never toted the sum of the miles (hundreds) to come up with a speed.

Spot-on about the romance angle, Chris, that's absolutely identical. This whole I-had-no-idea-you'd-be-offended thing is an incel's dream! I actually strain to believe the female characters a bit, because they're supposed to be smart, and the guys are OBVIOUSLY newcomers, but no, you need to be up on all our dating etiquette.

Makes for a fun plot driver, obviously, but hard not to shake my head.

My initial response is a pretty strong no. Yes, the good guys are sent into another world.
But John Carter is all alone, no hope of returning vouched to him until the cliffhanger.
And the indigenous races on Barsoom include one that's considerably more advanced, admirable (if strange) in customs.
At Earth's Core, the inhabitants are either in a Stone Age/tribal level or well, reptiles. Some weird abilities, yes, but nothing to write home about, even if they had paper.
Was it that way on Carson's Venus? I've never read it, nor the Moon Men.

I can only imagine what it might have been like to be a lurker in a writing group so distinguished and productive! The thoughts were just bubbling, obviously.

For me, the setting of At The Earth's Core was another way for all of them to get at their own strengths as writers. With REH, pure action and a little societal comparison (the indigenous races probably would have provided all the heroes!). For ERB, adventure and almost the reverse societal comparison- he wrote that delicious satirical poem on White Man's Burden that you brought us, Chris, but still this book is chock-full of notions of how the heroes will bring European technology (and maybe even Christianity) to the underworld.
For HPL, by contrast, going underground was just another way to go further back in time, discover life that bends rational thought, and bring up threats to our lives and sanity that we'll have no shot to defeat or even escape.

Can't wait! Fabulous, fun adventure story, and also revealing the cultural heritage of the period. White Man's Burden, anyone?!?

I must agree Gil, and there's something to this concept that I see now really drove the book. Think about it- he gives us a character who cannot remember perfection (which is Amber). He slowly sets about getting back his memory of the one, true kingdom. And WE ALL do that, right? It's like Sokrates with his students, for crying out loud- he's after the ideal form of things. I mean, blows my mind but the important thing is- by giving us this notion of a perfect world that we (and the hero) cannot quite yet envision, Zelazny reels us in.

This is another way of establishing the authority of the world, kind of like the epistolary style (where you get us to believe the world is real by showing us newspaper articles, letters, diaries, etc.). Clever fox!

I was almost disappointed when Corwin walked the Pattern.

So Chris' comment really hits on my next topic: walking in Shadow and the Pattern.
If Corwin doesn't remember much, it isn't just about recovering what he knows, the story immediately becomes about "The Truth" in tall letters. What's really real? His strength? The coolness of the tarot deck in his hand? How cagey Flora and Random are acting all the time? If Nine Princes were a game it would have to be poker. Probably strip poker.

What were your impressions when Corwin and Random start driving and things change beyond all reason? The first steps through Shadow are enough to convince you the reader--if not Corwin-- that "we're not in Kansas anymore". I'm filled with admiration for the way Zelazny rolls out this concept, as a process of remembering one thing at a time about the place where everything is fully real. And of course that puts Corwin in even more danger! If the game is to remember... ack.

Glad you liked it Chris! I think him letting Random "try some things" while they were in the car was incredible!'
Trying to think of an ignorant narrator in fiction I DIDN'T like...

First topic I'd like to bring up is the theme of Corwin as the ignorant (and possibly untrustworthy) narrator.
Frankly I think this is one of the purest and most effective uses of the ignorant narrator I've seen. Spoilers ensue (but seriously people if you haven't read it yet what are you doing here?):
-To inflict amnesia on a character puts them on a level plane with the reader, and draws you in to figure things out as quickly, or perhaps quicker than he does. Notice how certain things, like fencing words with Flora or having a smoke, come naturally to him? They are casual details but they all gain importance because you are almost trying to HELP Corwin remember!
-It adds to the menace of everything that happens early in the book. He's in a hospital, limbs in casts, he doesn't know any names-- yet he instinctively decides he's leaving (though it means having to fight and hurt people) and you're on board emotionally, whereas I think normally you wouldn't be.
-That leads to my final point. You can't know, if Corwin remembers nothing, whether he's a good guy or not! The ignorant narrator could always be an untrustworthy one. And that's EXACTLY where Zelazny wants you to be. Corwin is not a Boy Scout, but you want him to succeed, you care even though he's rough and at least to begin with amoral. His entire family would sell their mom for a pack of cigarettes, and Corwin only looks better-than-average by comparison. Yet how could the author have gotten you to care so much if he'd started the story with "once there was a group of powerful bastards, and one of them was not actually the worst..."

I'm interested in your thoughts around Corwin's early amnesia and how it affected your enjoyment of the opening.

HERE THE DISCUSSION OF NINE PRINCE IN AMBER BEGINS:

Profile- Roger Zelazny
Author of one of the most easily-recognized and accessible sci-fi/fantasy series of all time, there’s much to admire in the life of Roger Zelazny. Born to Polish immigrants he edited the high school paper, got degrees in English and clearly loved to write. But Zelazny took regular jobs like one with the Social Security Administration for years, while writing on the side and gradually shifting over to full-time writing work at age 32.

According to the bios I see Zelazny worked his way up right, starting with shorter tales first and becoming a pro only when his novels started to do well (Wiki says he focused on novels from 1969 on in order to help sustain himself). There’s something rational and satisfying about that career path: and it’s not like he became a billionaire but clearly he had a good life with plenty of awards and success (three Nebula and six Hugo awards, just the start of the list).

I wish I had started early enough to be eligible to join the kind of group he did, the Swordsmen and Sorcerers Guild of America. It was a who’s-who of guys whose stuff I wanted to read in high school, and they all gave each other cool nicknames, which is probably half the reason men get into such clubs in the first place.
I try to think of what it is that makes the Princes in Amber series so fabulous and to my mind it’s two things. His scope was cosmic, an All-That-Is premise that could make my head spin as a younger man (and even today!). It’s quite one thing when, for example, Sauron threatens the world, which is to say, this particular continent or portion of a single planet that Tolkien had imagined. And JRRT HAD a cosmos behind Middle Earth, yes, but the shadows of Amber that Zelazny lobbed at the reader could put Middle Earth in its pocket. There’s room for the fantasy world of absolutely every book ever written if you walk through enough shadows.

It should have taken forever to describe that. Zelazny made the entire explanation fit on the back of a postcard. And that’s the second thing. Key to his accessibility is that he had a mastery of such concision, that elegant short-ness everyone admires and so few can imitate. When reading about him it came as no surprise at all to me that he loved those detective noir books; you know the ones, and boom there it is-- first-person perspective, ripping along with the hero through the action, and piecing it together as you both go along. Corwin of Amber is basically Sam Spade, and they both smoke and use guns just fine.

If you’ve read the book, think back and slap a fedora on Corwin. Right? History with dames, always a bit edgy with the law, knack for meeting the wrong kind of people. Corwin is nothing if not autonomous, close to a loner, but he’s loyal to those who treated him fairly. If only he could remember…

This is the series we’ll be delving into this time around and I’m sure you’ll enjoy this book, and hopefully the conversation too. I’ll lob out some specific questions about the first book in the series soon (and we’ll try to limit ourselves just to Nine Princes in Amber). But if you have recollections or learnings about Zelazny the writer, his other activities and things he’s written you’d like to share, now’s the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Z...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swordsm...
http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/...

A quick reminder for the reading group. Written Gems will discuss the first book of Roger Zelazny seminal Amber series, "Nine Princes in Amber" in a couple weeks. Still plenty of time to absorb this page-turner if you haven't already. Talk to you soon!

Sorry for the long hiatus everyone but we'll be cranking up the Written Gems discussion group in early April with a discussion of the sci-fi/fantasy/urban fantasy/paranormal/mystery/comic/thriller oh hell, it's a bit of everything classic tale "Nine Princes in Amber" by Roger Zelazny.
If you haven't read it, you've got plenty of time for this page-turner before our discussion begins. Don't miss it, this tale is a tremendous example of all that's right with genre fiction. In fact, all the fiction tales you've ever read are all included in it!

I agree this is a balance-point where the reader's feelings probably turn against humanity. A lot was left unclear- how many humans are in the Humanity Party, for one thing- and their rationale did seem to break down pretty fast under Kiernan's questioning.

I did NOT think, however, that the humans on Sako were unintelligent, just uncivilized. And the Sakae gave some reasoning or other about why they couldn't uplift them that struck me as thin. These were things that a longer story would have had to explore.

But yeah, it was a weird ride, almost arguing that in the future humans will take a step BACKWARDS in terms of their attitude and ability to understand others. A bit of Buck Rogers there, the guy from the past has the right idea!