Stephen’s Comments (group member since Sep 11, 2011)

Stephen’s comments from the Moby-Dick group.

as to the dangers of the sea. I love this quote...

The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore.”
― Vincent van Gogh

I've been GOOGLE'ing but so far no concrete proof. However I did come across a reference to The Secret of Lost Things about a girl who gets involved in the search for a lost Mellville manuscript that supposed to be based in part on fact.

The original reference that set me wondering was in an old episode of "The Waltons" when John-boy loses his first draft to a house fire. His literature professor cites the Melville/Moby Dick loss as well as Robert Louis Stevenson's loss when his wife set fire to his first draft of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde calling it obscene, and he finishes by mentioning Hemingways lost work. Hemmingway's loss was the only one I'd heard of previously.

Just came across a claim (on an old TV show) that Melville's first draft of Moby Dick was lost at sea.

I'd never heard that before. Does anyone know the whole story?

I've gotten behind again and am just now trying to catch up...

I've yet to see any discussion about how religous people of the time took this book. It was bad enough with throw aways like Better a sober cannibal than a drunken christian but now, Chapter 83 Jonah Historically Regarded. Didn't HM suggesting that "the Whale" that swallowed Jonah being a ship of that name drive folks of that era into book-burning (if not author burning) If they were anything like the creationists or even the Intelligent Design Proponents, it's no wonder that his books fell from favor.

The Chapter 87 The Grand Armada had a few oddities I'd like to discuss...

Melville makes a big to do about the Pequod not needing to put in for water because they are carrying a large supply of Nantucket Spring Water. While it's not described exactly HOW that's packaged, every other sea story that I've read suggests that the problem with fresh water was that it got brackish and mossy and was full of organisms after just a few months. I was curious why Melville made such a point of this. It seems unlikely and not at all important to the story. Also James A. Michener in his book Hawaii makes much of the whalers that put in there to get fresh fruits and veggies and most important of all fresh water.

Also Melville talks about "the circus running sun racing within its fiery ring" Is HM suggesting that the sun orbits the Earth? I've always thought that that bruhaha was well sorted by Melville's time. Copernicus and Kepler were both a couple of centuries before Melville. I suppose that he could just be "being poetic"...

I was delighted to see that Melville wasn't above a little alliteration (if restricted to a footnote) "sinewy Saxonisms of this sort..."

Chapter 88 Schools and Schoolmasters. It was interesting to see Melville draw a distinction between the harem schools and the bull schools. Even more interesting to see him refrain from drawing a parallel betwee the behavior of males and females of the cetacean variety with the behavior of males and females of the human variety.

It was also interesting to learn of Vidocq. I'd never heard of this famous French womanizer until reading this chapter. It was also interesting to learn that Vidocq was the Sam Spade of his day. From white whale to black bird in one fell swoop.

Melville's thought process as he pens chapter 78: Hmmm these lubbers think falling into a shark infested sea is scary! I'll show them! Howzabout Tashtego falls into the whale's head and then THAT falls into the sea? That way escaping the head into a shark infested sea is actually an improvement.

S. wrote: "...Is Fedallah Chinese?"
According to wikipedia "Fedallah is the harpooneer on Ahab's boat. He is of Persian Zoroastrian ("Parsi") descent. Because of descriptions of him having lived in China, he might have been among the great wave of Parsi traders who made their way to Hong Kong and the Far East from India during the mid-19th century." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedallah...

The chinese jacket reference mixed with the statement that " the companions of this figure were of that vivid, tiger-yellow complexion" and the turban and the reference that "the living hair braided and coiled round and round upon his head" set me in mind of a chinaman's queue (having read Hawaii where much was made of that) my mental picture was that he was chinese. But, apparently I'm wrong. However the asian and yellow aspects of the "Gamboge" reference do still apply.

On Chapters 74 & 75 I'm suprised that Melville doesn't make mention of "depth perception" These critters that may dive so deep lack any true depth perception as their eyes are so widely separated on their heads. Personally, I think this is an isolated instance where he kinda misses the mark. Most open-plains herbivores lack binocular vision. This is just the open sea variety of the same thing.

Of course since water transmits sounds better than air and transmits light worse than air it's no real wonder that a whale doesn't have gigantic eyes and that no ear-flaps are necessary. I've often thought that those anti-intelligent design advocates have missed an argument by not mentioning that a third eye would be very useful for most creatures. It's only in insects that the multi-faceted eye mutation has been found. Which argues strongly for evolution versus intelligent design.

As there's no separate topic this week for quotes I'd like to mention the way that Melville writes vs Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter which was released just one year ealier.

In chapter 73 Stubb and Flask Kill a Right Whale; and Then Have a Talk Over Him Flask says I heard that gamboge ghost of a Fedallah saying...

Having never heard the word gamboge, I looked it up. It's a gum resin from various Asian trees used to stain things yellow. Not a bad allusian to the mysterious chinaman! Can you imagine the muck Hawthorne would have made of that?

Also gotta mention Stubb's "Seaman-tific notation"
“How old do you suppose Fedallah is, Stubb?”

“Do you see that mainmast there?” pointing to the ship; “well, that’s the figure one; now take all the hoops in the Pequod’s hold, and string ’em along in a row with that mast, for oughts, do you see; well, that wouldn’t begin to be Fedallah’s age. Nor all the coopers in creation couldn’t show hoops enough to make oughts enough.”

Also there's the reference to double-darbies. Having done a bit of web research, I've sussed out that we're talking about leg and wrist manacles here and that there's a historical tie in to a noted userer. But can someone fill me in? Is the Userer in question the minister by the name of Derby?

Also I know that the races were named after a Lord Derby but was the hat style named for him too? Sorry for the non-sequiters here...

Finally one last note to Chapter 73... "As the crew toiled on, Laplandish speculations were bandied among them" It's NOT noted in my copy of the text but from prior reading I know that Laplandish men were considered by many sailors to be warlocks and were therefore considered bad luck to have aboard. I'm guessing that Melville's lumping this chinaman in with devils and warlocks. I think that's worthy of noting considering what comes after...

Debbie wrote: "...] Isambard Kingdom Brunel lowered a diving bell from a boat to repair the hole at the bottom of the river, throwing bags filled with clay into the breach in the tunnel's roof. Following the repairs and the drainage of the tunnel, he held a banquet inside it. "

The brits of that era sure were fond of dinners in wierd venues. They held one in the belly of one of the dinosaurs for the International Exposition too.

BTW... Isambard Kingdom Brunel was a big railroad tycoon of the era.

Bill wrote: "Stephen, The Book of Judith is absolutely NOT found in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible)"

I don't suppose a mae culpa would be in order here (I was raised Methodist but have been fascinated by the delineations in faith all my life... particularly after beginning my stint in NYC)

Wonder if the writers of Cheers/Frazier were fans of Melville? Their Judith bore more than a suggestion of the biblical one.

Was anyone else suprised by Ahab's mention of diving bells?

I, for one was quite ignorant of just how early in our history diving bells were invented. I'd heard of the uproar surrounding Beeebe's Bathysphere but placed that in the 1920's and that was only due to its reference in the Sondheim song "I'm Still Here"

Donald wrote: "...in 2011, religion deserves to be unpopular - if indeed it is!"

I'd rather we say that "religious fanaticism" should be unpopular. Religion can be an aid and an enhancer to life whether one has faith or not. And it does factor into our culture as well.

How many of you were aware that the name Jeroboam, while a biblical reference was also a reference to the size of a wine bottle. Seems that the good monk who bottled champagne named the various sizes of their bottles after Biblical figures. A Jeroboam was the smallest of these biblically named bottles holding approximately 3 liters. The mighty Nebuchadnezzar holds 15 liters while grand-daddy of them all, the Melchizedek holds 30. I first heard about this from a restaurant owner who had a Methuselah (6 liters) displayed on his bar.

I'm guessing that Melville was going for the bottle size reference.

Newengland wrote: "I like how Melville warned us that "The Crotch" would be important in coming chapters.!"

What with all the ribald humor mentioned about earlier chapters I'm surprised at no one has mentioned NE's grabbing his crotch (reference)

I'm wondering if the whole "eating whale steak by whale-oil light" wasn't an off handed reference to the kosher prohibition about separating meat from milk.

To keep kosher, Jews must not eat meat and milk products at or near the same time due to a verse in the Book of Exodus, which forbids "boiling a (kid) goat in its mother's milk." Hence the whole second set of dishes thing (and the lack of cheeseburgers at seders).

One can also note that Melville makes note of the book of Judith. That book is found in the Jewish and Catholic Bibles, but not the Protestant one. I've always been puzzled about just what made certain books acceptable as part of the Bible and others not. I do note with some glee that the book of Wisdom is omitted from the Protestant Bible (King James Version).

Of course I've also been fascinated by the way that the Jewish Talmud is presented for study. The text in the middle of the page and 5 commentaries printed in the surrounding margins.

OK NE gotta ask... Do you think any of those whales were dreaming? I did some google reserach and it's unclear whether or not whales dream.

Apparently Dolphins don't. Researches made on captive dolphins (sperm whales are rather related to dolphins than baleen whales) have showed that cetaceans sleep with just one half of the brain at a time.

However, dolphins, thought to be highly intelligent do not have any REM sleep whatsoever! Dreaming mammals besides humans include: cats, dogs, chimpanzees, horses, cows.

Thanks for that Kitty!

I also forgot to mention the reference to Jeremy Bentham the fellow who is still "in residence" at University College London. He had himself mummified and occuies a self styled Auto-icon at the end of the South Cloisters in the main building of the college. Having been to London numerous times I've always meant to visit the old gent but never made it.

He was a bit of a forward thinking old crackpot advocating the decriminization of homosexual activities and... wait for it... equal rights for women. Personally, I think he might have been a movie double for Ben Franklin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_B...

I'm ever the laggard but it's partly cause I wander so.
I was curious about the paintings that Melville referred to in chapter 55.
Here's the best I could find of Hagarth's Persues rescuing Andromeda http://www.william-hogarth.com/hogart...

And as to Guido... "http://www.artchive.com/web_gallery/J..."

(Not sure WHY one cannot include the link here as an address)

"matse avatar" turned up no images but plenty of bad music.

One question for the crew... When Steelkilt and his two fellow mutineers are strung up to the mast and scourged, was Melville drawing a parallel with Jesus and the two thieves on Golgotha? He doesn't actually mention it and Steelkilt's motives were certainly not as noble. I seem to be seeing symbolism in threes lately.

Newengland wrote: "According to this article, whales are still hunted in Japan, Norway, and Iceland.


Perhaps hunted BY Japan, Norway, and Iceland would be more accurate but we need to add Russia to the list and also under very specific circumstances Canada and the U.S. Seems that the Innuit peoples exercise their right to hunt a small number of whales each year in traditional ways.

I recently finished The Yearling and there's a book that will vegetarians nightmares!

Personally, I think that humans have always been predators and will continue to be. I'm NOT against hunting per se but I am against waste. In some ways Stubbs eating of the whale is a redeeming act.

I still recall a nature program with Attenborough where they chronicle the pursuit of a grey whale and her calf by a pod of killer whales. After a chase of some 6 hours the pod killed the calf and ate only the tongue before letting it slip under the depths. Of course Attenborough pointed out that everything else would be consumed. First by hagfish and sleeper sharks and other deep sea predators. In a few years, even the bones would have been consumed by certain kinds of bacteria that feed on bone.

Ever the Laggard, I just finished these chapters but have braced up the yards and am sailing hard to catch up.

Does anyone else note that the discussion has fallen off?

What are we then like the Pirates rather than the whalers? ... pirates straightway steer apart, for they are infernal villains on both sides, and don’t like to see overmuch of each other’s villanous likenesses.

There wasn't even any remark about Melville's allusions to the hanging of pirates...

I conclude, that in boasting himself to be high lifted above a whaleman, in that assertion the pirate has no solid basis to stand on. Talk about your gallows humor...

And as to Gamming... I was once addicted to on-line gamming but weened myself away from it.

As to Town-Ho's Story... did anyone else feel that this was told in an unecessarily flowerey way? The whole Dons of Lima construct was a bit off-putting to me.

Perhaps this reaction was in part due to the incredible nature of that part of the story. Having done most of my literary sailing aboard the ships of H.M. Navy (Hornblower, Bligh & Bolitho) this level of familiarity between officers and crew seemed fantastical.