SEP’s Comments (group member since Mar 07, 2013)

SEP’s comments from the Silmarillion Discussion group.

Denise wrote: "SEP wrote: "Denise wrote: "Oh, and I still don't think Tolkien ever did like Feanor. I just don't read the comments as positive."

I don't think he did either. I think he was careful to not take a..."

Seems to me that Feanor's choices started even before Melkor was released from Mandos. Melkor certainly pushed Feanor over the edge, but he was teetering there of his own free will when Melkor came along.

Denise wrote: "A few ideas on your comments…

"Also, re Aule and the dwarves, his immediate surrender of them reminds me of the story of Abraham and Isaac. A total trust in one's Lord to make it a good thing. And I think that's why Aule wasn't considered to have "sinned". Or at least he was completely forgiven, if that's the right term. "

I agree. Aule's total humility and submission to the will of Iluvatar stands out strongly when compared to the attitude of Melkor and Feanor regarding Creation/Sub-creation and the pride of possession.

Denise wrote: "Oh, and I still don't think Tolkien ever did like Feanor. I just don't read the comments as positive."

I don't think he did either. I think he was careful to not take an 'editorial' attitude and express his own opinion, but his word choices are telling. He doesn't come right out and blast Feanor, but Feanor is a Lucifer-figure to the max. There was a great deal in the letter to Milton Waldman (the prefatory material) about Middle-earth not having a Fall because the concept of a Fall was too integral to our 'real world' history & mythology to be believable in Middle-earth. But I think the story of Feanor is pretty darn close. (Although the 'Fall' can be taken two ways - the Rebellion of the Angels or the Fall of Adam - and Feanor is more of a Lucifer-figure than an Adam-figure.)

More...

"From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold." The Music is not the be-all and end-all of creation - there will always be something new and fascinating to see. In other words, the world is a wonderful and marvellous place!

"And Oromë loved the Quendi, and named them in their own tongue Eldar, the people of the stars; but that name was after borne only by those who followed him upon the westward road." I don't think that JRRT ended up being this strict about the proper usage of 'Eldar' in LotR. I think he used it for Elves in general, though according to this, it was only properly used for those who had been to Valinor and had returned to Middle-earth (the Exiles). From a LotR standpoint, that means Galadriel only. Maybe Gildor and Glorfindel, but for main players - only Galadriel. Even Elrond was born in Middle-earth and never went West until the end of LotR.

"...shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuiviénen, or would pass suddenly over the stars; and of the dark Rider upon his wild horse that pursued those that wandered to take them and devour them." Shades of the Black Riders and the Nazgul.

"...and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar." Important at many levels. First, to contrast with Aule's humility in the creation of the Dwarves. And confirmation of Treebeard's comment that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, or from corrupted Elves. And how interesting that the Orcs hate their Master and serve only in fear. That gives an indication of free will and a sense of right/wrong or 'appropriateness' in their creation. And their creation was in mockery of Iluvatar because it usurped his prerogative of Creation (as opposed to Sub-creation).

"Círdan the Shipwright was their lord." I always kind of thought that Cirdan was an Exile, but apparently not. He had really 'been around' though, if he was in Middle-earth since before the First Age.

"They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor." Contrast to Feanor and his family.

"‘It is indeed unhappy,’ said Míriel, ‘and I would weep, if I were not so weary. But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after.’ She went then to the gardens of Lórien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos." I don't like Feanor. Period. And, IMO, JRRT didn't like him, either. Everything he says about Feanor is double-edged. Here, his mother isn't portrayed in very favorable light, either. This comment smacks of entitlement and self-indulgence. And who knew that Elves suffered from postpartum depressions??? EDIT TO ADD: And it grates on me like fingernails on a chalkboard how she whines and says 'hold me harmless in this' as though she's being forced against her will to 'give up'. This screams something like 'moral lassitude' to me. Don't like Miriel any more than I like Feanor.

"He was tall, and fair of face, and masterful, his eyes piercingly bright and his hair raven-dark" This is a description of Feanor, and I find it interesting because there has been dispute over the 'normal' hair color of Elves. LotR says that their hair was dark 'except in the golden house of Finrod', and some writers have twisted that (somehow) to mean that all Elves were blonde... A little before this quote came: "A sister they had, Galadriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finwë; her hair was lit with gold as though it had caught in a mesh the radiance of Laurelin." Forget what 'Galadriel' translates to, but it's not her real name, it's a nickname and it has something to do with the pretty hair. And the simple fact that she got a nickname that related to her hair indicates that it was not the norm.

"The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons." Spoiled, self-centered, brat!

"For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever." Manwe is showing how gullibly innocent someone who is 'good' can be. He should have been wiser, or have known better, or have learned from experience. But all those things sort of presuppose a kernel of 'not-good' in the makeup. From a purely rational standpoint, this makes Manwe look naive, but I think it really means to illustrate that he is so totally 'good', he has no concept of 'not-good' except as a theory (rather than reality).

I'm sick of typing - more later... and why am I the only one writing these long posts????

More quotes, comments, and oddments:

"...a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter..." This points to the idea of a 'righteous wrath' which in Catholic theology is the only acceptable form of anger. And it also has interesting implications that Melkor could not stand before laughter. Laughter is the ultimate insult in this scenario, and Melkor's pride cannot stand before Tulkas' contempt. Laughter can go both ways - joy and contempt. Which is meant here? (I think both.)

"Therefore they departed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, the westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea, that is called by the Elves Ekkaia, encircling the Kingdom of Arda." I do wish I had a better understanding of the nuances of meaning between Aman, Arda, Ea, etc. JRRT seems often to use them interchangeably, but they don't seem to be exactly 'all the same'.

"Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else..." One of the thorniest passages in the entire corpus of JRRT's works. On this, the debate between fate vs free will for all of Tolkien's creation hinges.

"‘These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.’ Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him." What really jumps out at me from this passage is not that Men resemble Melkor but that he has always feared and hated them. Why? The first thing that comes to mind is the Biblical 'in his own image' concept. I don't think I've ever seen any discussion on the ramfications of this in any of the stuff I've read.

"It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not." Death and Free Will are gifts of Iluvatar, but they come at a price. This goes back to what JRRT said in "On Faerie-stories" about the Human-stories of the Elves being concerned with the Escape from Deathlessness.

"Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy." Ditto, see above.

"Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father. But what shall I do now, so that thou be not angry with me for ever? As a child to his father, I offer to thee these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made. Do with them what thou wilt. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?'" Aule's total humility and admission of wrongdoing is in stark contrast to Melkor's arrogance and desire to be Creator rather than Sub-creator.

"Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle." Very interesting because so little is said about the Dwarves' own mythology. If Iluvatar hallows them and they have a place among his other children in the End, does that mean they will join in the Second Music (yes, imagine a choir of Dwarves - I dare you!)?

"But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees." The genesis of the Ents!

"And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom." Something to think about whenever you spot the Big Dipper or Ursa Major!

I kind of think that may be part of the problem - trying to fit them into their proper context. There's not necessarily a 1:1 correspondence. JRRT devised these stories to represent old myths handed down through the ages, orally and in writing. Just like in the real world, you can't trace it back to one specific thing - it's general ideas or story themes. You find threads and subtle links that tie the 'current' stories (LotR) to the 'old' stories (Silmarillion) and the recognition of those links is what makes them strong.

Do you think that JRRT 'liked' Feanor?

*Everything* he says about Feanor can be taken two ways: one positive, one negative.

One last quote - it was from the linked notes, so came in out of order (as it was at the end of the book):

"Elrond symbolises throughout the ancient wisdom, and his House represents Lore - the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection. Thus it is a place visited on the way to all deeds, or 'adventures'. It may prove to be on the direct road (as in The Hobbit); but it may be necessary to go from there in a totally unexpected course. So necessarily in The Lord of the Rings, having escaped to Elrond from the imminent pursuit of present evil, the hero departs in a wholly new direction: to go and face it at its source."

More quotes, comments, and whatnots...

"He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own..." The Flame Imperishible is obviously the power of the Word - to say Be! and make things happen. Melkor/Morgoth wants it - he wants to not be a sub-creator but a Creator. But this also indicates that Eru gave the Valar the ability to create - is it sub-creation or creation? Or does the question never arise in the minds of the 'good' Valar, for all they are and do is through the One?

"For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity." Just beautiful!

"... wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory." Oh, what a smashing putdown that comment was to Melkor! A firm reminder that no matter what evil he comes up with Iluvatar will take it and make it part of his plan, and it will eventually come out to the good. At this point, if he had a brain in his head, he would've slunk off with his tail between his legs and never had another thought of his own - and there would never have been a Middle-earth!

"... but the delight and pride of Aule is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work." That's how things should be. Freedom from coveteousness, Aule epitomizes how our desires and possessions are chains holding us back and tying us to unhappiness.

"...the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also." Never heard that there was a special name for the female Valar. Uh-huh...

"Melkor spent his spirit in envy and hate, until ast last he could make nothing save in mockery of the thought of others, and all their works he destroyed if he could." The word 'mockery' reminds me of Treebeard's comment on the creation of the Trolls and Orcs - made in mockery of Ents and Elves.

"He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still int he freedom of Iluvatar." Mandos. This implies that he has powers over Elves and Men that are greater than Manwe's (though the point is made that Manwe has power over the airs and the winds - no mention of him having an 'overall' authority. He seems to be Lord of the Valar by right of seniority, rather than anything else.)

"... halls of Mandos that ever widen as the ages pass..." Indication that JRRT was not thinking along the lines of reincarnation for the Elves.

"... all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom." Sure sounds like the Halls of Mandos are not a Paradise, or even a Purgatory, but more of Limbo - a place of waiting and grieving for what might have been. Recall Thorin's speech to Bilbo - "I go now to the Halls of Waiting to sit beside my fathers until the world is renewed." Question - what becomes of the Dwarves in Arda Unmarred???

"Melkor hated the Sea, for he could not subdue it." I took a class once - yes, a whole college-level class - about the symbolism of the Sea. There are layers and layers of meaning in this simple sentence.

"Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in Lorien, bu t his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience." So, 'nuff said - Gandalf was a Maia, in case there had been any doubt.

"Great might was given to him by Iluvatar, and he was coeval with Manwe." Shades of Zoroasterism, where there are cosmic twins as gods - one light, one dark, but coeval and equal. There are probably other religions that have the split between light/dark.

"From spelendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless." Lucifer.

Quotes, comments, whatnots...

"They were not to dwell permanently in Valinor again, but in the Lonely Isle of Eressea within sight of the Blessed Realm." I don't think that ever actually penetrated my brain before. When the Elves returned, they were prohibited from Valinor itself - so even though they were 'forgiven', there was still an element of disgrace or punishment.

"They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor." OMG! Nasty, greedy, scheming Noldor! How incredibly human (and not in a good way)! Reminds me of Milton's "Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven". This casts a nasty light on the Noldorian psyche. I never really liked the Noldor, but when it is put this way, I REALLY don't like them! Definitely a 'fallen angel' sort of feel about this.

"But at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery." This gives me a funny feeling - shades of Thangodorim, Barad-dur, and Orthanc. And the use of the word 'machinery' is interesting, since JRRT was so against the idea of machinery vs handiwork.

"...(i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing)..." Thought-provoking. IS change a regrettable thing, or is it one of those things where the end justifies the means? The letter goes on to say "... the preservation of what is desired or loved or its semblance..." (my italics). Makes me wonder if the Elves understood the difference between the reality and the semblance, or if it was all the same to them because they were so 'out of it' as far as mortal things went.

"Their reward is their undoing - or the means of their temptation." Re: the Numenoreans - a frightening thought, again, worthy of Milton. And it almost makes you wonder if the Valar were playing both ends against the middle, so to speak.

"There are three phases in their fall from grace. First acquiescence, obedience that is free and willing, though without complete understanding. Then for long they obey unwillingly, murmuring more and more openly. Finally they rebel..." The enternal story, of humankind, I think. So sad... Gift horses must *always* be looked at in the mouth, and anything less than perfection is not good enough. A feeling of entitlement.

"...leaving many legends behind of kings and gods out of the sunset." Made me think of King Sheave/Sheaf, which JRRT also wrote about. From the Sea he came, and to the Sea he returned in death.

"...everlasting life within the circles of the world." JRRT makes very, very fine distinctions between immortality of the soul and immortality of the body. I've been reading a good bit about that in Interrupted Music.

"...for the world is round, and finite, and a circle inescapable - save by death." Another distinction between immortality of the soul and immortality of the body - Elves vs Men. And a metaphor, too. Think of our modern concepts of a 'vicious circle' or 'hamster wheel' or 'chasing one's tail'.

You know you're in trouble when you fall asleep reading JRRT!

Denise wrote: "I certainly don't mind about spoilers. I invited you guys and Squigs (though she apparently didn't show up yet). I don't know who else is interested, so I didn't make it private, but I didn't know ..."

PBP said she wanted to sit in on the discussion and someone else did, too. Can't remember who, though. I suppose we can add people as they express interest.

NorthernLightsLin wrote: "Denise wrote: "I'm setting up threads, but I'd like to know from you guys how long you would like this to take."

i'd need to have a look at it to have any idea of how I could progress with this. I..."

So, you're saying that you don't want to have to be careful about not posting spoilers? That's OK with me, we've already read the book. But I thought there were a few others who wanted to participate, but hadn't read it. Nisi, who did you invite?

Denise wrote: "Now, now, this discussion isn't about gluttons for punishment. We are here to find an appreciation for new things! ;)"

I thought we WERE gluttons for punishment, otherwise we wouldn't be doing this in the first place!

If you're a glutton for punishment, you can also try Interrupted Music: The Making of Tolkien's Mythology.