21st Century Literature discussion

And here's a topic for Part B: Chapters 7 through 13. Spoilers are allowed.

Like I did with the topic for Part A, here are a few questions just to get things started.

1. Jules is shocked when he learns that Stephanie and Bennie live among Republicans. Why do you think it’s important to Stephanie to be accepted by the Crandale Community, going so far as to hide her tennis matches from Bennie, when in her younger days she probably would have wanted nothing to do with the community?

2. How does the Bennie, who cheats on Stephanie out of "pain, revenge, power, desire," compare to the Bennie we met in chapter 2 and the younger Bennie we've seen in Chapter 3?

3. Throughout the novel Egan gives us examples of youth's ideal of adulthood. Some of these moments are:

- Page 82: Rolph feels that dancing is his way of growing up.

- Page 50: When doing cocaine with Lou and Jocelyn, Rhea feels that, "She's beginning her adult life."

- Page 198: We learn that as a child Rob thought that adulthood would feel like a, "state of tingling, stomachy happiness."

Given that we also see or, in Rolph's case learn of, what each character is like as an actual adult do you think Egan is trying to make the statement that youth's ideal of adulthood never measures up to the reality?

Jason wrote: "...Why do you think it’s important to Stephanie to be accepted by the Crandale Community, going so far as to hide her tennis matches from Bennie, when in her younger days she probably would have wanted nothing to do with the community?..."

On the purely practical level, Crandale is where she has to live. It can be very lonely to not have acquaintances to do things with in a new environment.

Jason wrote: "3. Throughout the novel Egan gives us examples of youth's ideal of adulthood...."

Jason -- Did you choose the word "ideal" here? (Somehow, idea, concept, image ... seem perhaps more apropos?)

Lily wrote: "Jason wrote: "3. Throughout the novel Egan gives us examples of youth's ideal of adulthood...."

Jason -- Did you choose the word "ideal" here? (Somehow, idea, concept, image ... seem perhaps more..."

Hi Lily,

I think either can work here being youth's idea (concept) of adulthood or youth's ideal (a conception of something in its perfection).

Using Lily's online instructions for an e-book friendly version of Chapter 12 (thank you!!!), I couldn't help clicking on the readers guide link. In the "Note from Jennifer Egan" that appears there, this bit really caught my attention:

I didn’t think of A Visit from the Goon Squad as a novel while I was working on it; nor did I think of it as a collection of short stories. I honestly wasn’t sure what it was. Only when I found myself wanting to call its halves “A” and “B,” did I suddenly realize which genre I’d been working in all along: the concept album. By which I mean the great storytelling albums I grew up with in the 1970s: The Who’s Tommy, Pink Floyd’s The Wall, David Bowie’s Ziggy Stardust. A concept album is a story told in parts that sound completely different from each other (that’s the fun of an album, right?), yet also work together.

That little drop of enlightenment actually changed the way I'm approaching my final response to the book, and I wanted to mention it here in case it hit other people in the same fashion (as in, right between the eyes...).

Jason wrote: "...I think either can work here being youth's idea (concept) of adulthood or youth's ideal (a conception of something in its perfection). ..."

- Page 50: When doing cocaine with Lou and Jocelyn, Rhea feels that, "She's beginning her adult life."

In rereading your initial post @2, I see "ideal" used in both the first sentence (3....) and your last question. It seems to me it is appropriate in the question; however, I'm not so sure but what "doing cocaine" is youth's "idea" of adulthood whereas the freedom to do cocaine is the "ideal", i.e., the acknowledged right to make one's own decisions.

That's interesting, Lilly.

When we look just at Rhea's experience do you think she is going along with all the things like the cocaine and the "intimate" moment that she is forced to observe between Jocelyn and Lou because it fits her concept of adulthood or because she thinks it is her right to do these things?

Jason wrote: "That's interesting, Lily.

When we look just at Rhea's experience do you think she is going along with all the things like the cocaine and the "intimate" moment that she is forced to observe betwe..."

Oh, I am going to have to go and reread! Be a day or two... (I do think one also needs to distinguish between "right" and "freedom" as ideals; they may both be ideals, but they are not necessarily the same. But, I must admit I'll find this conversation of interest, because I suspect my experience with our own son and his associates -- from which I draw my perspectives -- may or may not fit the broader [American?] society.)

I think 'ideal' is the right word - something worth wanting in this case, rather than 'idea.'

That moment when Rhea feels her "adult life" beginning really stuck out for me. But it's not because of anything within herself, rather because of the company she's keeping at the moment, and ordering linguini and clams in a restaurant. A few pages later she's horrified to witness the blow job (who wouldn't be, what a scene), and you get the feeling she wants to get off the trip. I liked that right after that at the party that Iggy Pop song is quoted: "I am the passenger..."
All this is back in chapter 3, though. Sorry for straying out of the 7-13 set!

S. wrote: "I think 'ideal' is the right word - something worth wanting in this case, rather than 'idea. ..."

Sorry, didn't follow your point? (I think both words are "right", the context, it seems to me, however, shifts as to which one is operative.)

I meant to refer to the "ideal" vs "idea" question regarding that you asked Jason. Just my opinion.
cheers

Daniel wrote: "Using Lily's online instructions for an e-book friendly version of Chapter 12 (thank you!!!), I couldn't help clicking on the readers guide link. In the "Note from Jennifer Egan" that appears there..."

Fantastic share, Daniel! Can't wait to hear how this bit of information has shaped your opinion of the novel.

And S. great insights on Rhea and no need to apologize for bringing up so much of chapter 3 in the topic for Part B, or should I say Side B?

As I'm trying to formulate how the concept album format shaped my opinion here, I keep flashing back in my thoughts to Michael Ondaatje's Running in the Family. I don't think anybody had a clue what to do with that book, but there was no denying its genius. It tended to be classified as a biography, despite the fact that half of it was poems, legends or even outright lies. It was my first introduction to a multimedia novel, and one of the finest examples of postmodern literature I have read. The tale was completely non-linear, yet the pieces told a story in the much same way as you would infer meaning from a stranger's scrapbook.

Goon Squad also toys about with standard conventions, and had me working to understand the "why" behind the presentation of the material. After reading most of the book, I was wondering why this was being considered as a novel when it was really just a bunch of short stories. Then I saw the PowerPoint presentation in Chapter 12, which had me instantly pulling out my postmodernist secret decoder ring. Thankfully, I was saved from any real effort on that front by stumbling across the "book as concept album" approach.

Everything suddenly fell into place when I recognized the chapters as tracks, because each story is a small song in its own right. And just like a concept album, certain themes and riffs manage to weave their way into the fabric of the album, reminding us that everything here is purposefully related. And the best clue that this is a concept album novel (rather than a short story collection) is the closing of the loop with a final chapter that perfectly mirrors and echoes the opening.

I liked the idea of the book as an album, too, a concept album. I thought it did work as a novel. Though it was chunked up with stories that could fly on their own (could they?), they interlocked in character and theme.

Daniel, appreciated your thoughts on Running in the Family. Ondaatje is a wonder.

Daniel wrote: "As I'm trying to formulate how the concept album format shaped my opinion here, I keep flashing back in my thoughts to Michael Ondaatje's Running in the Family. I don't think anybody had a clue wha..."

So, have you worked the date line of the stories yet?

Daniel wrote: "Everything suddenly fell into place when I recognized the chapters as tracks, because each story is a small song in its own right. And just like a concept album, certain themes and riffs manage to weave their way into the fabric of the album, reminding us that everything here is purposefully related. And the best clue that this is a concept album novel (rather than a short story collection) is the closing of the loop with a final chapter that perfectly mirrors and echoes the opening."

How interesting. I'd never have thought of this. That's what makes these group reads so informative!

Sophia: My sentiments exactly, because I've already gained so many insights from so many others in the short time I've been a member here. I'm glad to hear that I'm able to give something back!

Lily: One of the discussions you linked to in the resource thread actually provided a list of chapters in chronological order, but my brain doesn't seem to work that way. What was once magical for me becomes insipid when I try to linearize an abstract format. I didn't have any problem keeping a mental timeline in my head while reading, so obviously my brain is wired in a manner that complements the narrative style here. Out of curiosity, was the fractured timeline something that kept pulling you away from enjoying the book, or is this just a matter of your brain needing a linear framework to better process the story (or perhaps something else entirely)? I'm often guilty of just assuming people "work" the same way I do, and I didn't want to make that mistake before jumping into a discussion where we talk across each other.

S.: I'm honoured to meet another Ondaatje fan!

In glancing at reviews for the novel here on Goodreads and other places, it seems one of the big criticisms people have is that they didn't feel the characters were developed enough.

Do you agree with this and if so do you think that had Egan arraigned the chapters in chronological order that readers would have a better connection to the characters?

Daniel wrote: "...Out of curiosity, was the fractured timeline something that kept pulling you away from enjoying the book,..."

I asked a question about the date line, not the chronology! There was a surprise there I didn't catch until someone pointed it out to me -- so I won't here yet. While it might be interesting to read this sometime with the chapters in chronological order, that is not what this book is about. I liked your observations about "concept album." I hadn't come across that before, but it fits.

Jason wrote: "In glancing at reviews for the novel here on Goodreads and other places, it seems one of the big criticisms people have is that they didn't feel the characters were developed enough.

Do you agree ..."

In my early spoiler insert, I commented on this and later realized the part about characterization didn't need to be there. One of the questions I have come to ask myself about this book after having visited it about 1 1/2 times in at least three passes is whether there is more about each character there than one realizes as one reads, but one has to go back and piece it together, because it takes work to see all the connections -- in one case for me, that it was even the same character. I think this may be why one of my colleagues wanted a flow chart of the relationships when she got done -- but before she did the work herself, she used google to take advantage of the work of our fellow readers -- then shared her best find with the rest of us. But, even being cognizant of that fractured learning, I look forward to hearing where the readers here will get to in their assessments of whether "fully rounded characters."

Daniel wrote: "...instantly pulling out my postmodernist secret decoder ring..."

Daniel -- is this where we start to get into the distinctions between postmodern and contemporary?

Lily wrote: "I asked a question about the date line, not the chronology!"

...which makes me really glad I clarified rather than barging too far ahead! I have to admit I am 100% in the dark, so I will await your eventual post with bated breath.

Lily wrote: "...is this where we start to get into the distinctions between postmodern and contemporary?"

Or even whether Egan is representative of a new post-postmodernism? (wink)

Daniel wrote: "Lily wrote: "I asked a question about the date line, not the chronology!"

...which makes me really glad I clarified rather than barging too far ahead! I have to admit I am 100% in the dark, so I w..."

As closely as you read, Daniel, you may have noted it already, just figure that everyone else has, too. Just know, I was careless enough that I didn't! LOL!

Daniel wrote: "Or even whether Egan is representative of a new post-postmodernism? (wink) ..."

And your affiliations are? I.e., what school of thought? what university? what professors? Or what question should I be asking? Or should we just enjoy w/o categorization attempts? :=D (My suggestion of "contemporary" came out of a discussion of Cortazar's Hopscotch on another board.)

Lily wrote: "And your affiliations are? I.e., what school of thought? what university? what professors? Or what ..."

No affiliations whatsoever on my part. I tend to use categorizations as an overly simplistic crutch to express a concept that I'm usually too lazy to articulate. It's a bad habit on my part, so I'll vote for enjoying without categorization.

I think the characters were very well developed in most cases, but to "get" that development you had to put together not only the chapters about them, but also their other "appearances" as minor players, what they say about other characters, and what other characters say about them. In keeping with the idea of this as a montage or album, if every chapter is a song, you have to recognize how they go together. If every chapter is a picture, you need to check each picture for details that fill in background on another picture.

I really like that imagery, Casceil. Since the presentation was leaning towards the short story format, I wasn't looking for character development at a novel level. I thought each story did a fine job of developing major aspects of the character, and that stories from other POVs teased out additional facets of each character. In other words, I totally agree with you. Your analogy, however, is so much more lyrical than my bald statement of facts...

Casceil wrote: "I think the characters were very well developed in most cases, but to "get" that development you had to put together not only the chapters about them, but also their other "appearances" as minor pl..."

I'll second Daniel! Well put, Casceil! (And I haven't really done that work as a reader. I think Egan [and her editors, who apparently had a hand in this] asked a fair amount of us as readers, but that we could superficially enjoy the stories without that work. Probably the browsing an album analogy could apply again.)

I agree and I also enjoyed gathering bits and pieces about the characters as the story went on. I do think that Sasha is the book's main focus, with most of the other characters not drawn as fully. I would have liked more follow up on Jocelyn for example, from Part A, or a better picture of how Bennie coped with his fall from grace. I still really liked the book, but I did think about this...

Salome wrote: "I do think that Sasha is the book's main focus, with most of the other characters not drawn as fully..."

Salome -- More so than Bennie? Tell us why you think so? (Please?)

Lily wrote: "Salome wrote: "I do think that Sasha is the book's main focus, with most of the other characters not drawn as fully..."

Salome -- More so than Bennie? Tell us why you think so? (Please?)"

Hi Lily,
I do think that Sasha is more fully drawn than Bennie. We are given information about her from the time she is very young (told through her Uncle's memories) all the way through to her middle age (told through her daughter's graphs). She is the only character we learn about in almost every stage of her life. I would say she is the thread that holds the book together.
What are your thoughts on it (and everyone else's too :)?

The question of the main character (if any) is one to which I hadn't given much thought. Sasha would have my vote for all the reasons mentioned by Salome, and because the story begins and ends with her as the focus. In a "normal" telling of this story, I think Bennie would be the main character. His story happens on a grander scale, and the arc is classic: zero-to-hero, a spectacular fall from grace, ending with a hint of grand redemption. In this prismatic revealing of the story lines, though, Sasha does seem the one whose theme appears most often.

I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of any clear protagonist has a lot to do with the argument of poorly developed characters. For me, I imagine I just subconsciously accepted it as yet another element of literary subversion in the postmodern tradition.

....though post-modern is so...well, POST now. At some point I think people just need to accept the developments in writing as they have seamlessly absorbed every avant-guarde technique in film making. If I have to explain to ONE MORE teenager why Orson Wells was actually quite out there but seems so tame now....

That said, I did have quite a few complaints about the book, but not that the characters were under-developed, but that they were a little forced. And I felt there was some seriously lazy foreshadowing used in most of the book. Sometimes a writer can get blinded by what they want, and how they feel, that they don't always see that the final project doesn't arrive quite at the destination they actually intended it to at the beginning. I think that's what happened here, IMO. As a musician I'm well aware of the cliche of drug use, but the books seemed less of a paean to the relentless march of time and how age can cause one to become obsolete in one's field, and by the way digitization is evil (these are NOT my opinions, btw)...and become about how most of these people took drugs, and their lives took dramatic turns. The first time you introduce me to someone, then immediately reveal what happens to them much later in life (not in a temporal shift, just TELLING the reader) it's a shocking, effective device. Then it becomes a cross between the tales of Scheherazade and a PSA. I thought the characters were drawn just fine, I didn't feel they were sketchy, I just didn't like they way they were drawn. I also couldn't help the personal feeling like the author was constantly implying that life sucks, innocence dies, youth doesn't last, and a withered cynicism is the way to go. It's one thing to imply that as a book, but I felt as though the author was doing so as to make a point, like in addition to that being the general mood and point of the stories, we were supposed to take that away as the lesson.

Cynicism as part of the worldview of a novel or stories, I don't mind. But this almost seemed preachy and outside the scope of the author-reader relationship. I wouldn't have been shocked if the Egan broke the fourth wall at the end and just TOLD us that, followed by "Vinyl is better." (it's not, actually, but I understand why people feel that way)

Will wrote: "....though post-modern is so...well, POST now. At some point I think people just need to accept the developments in writing as they have seamlessly absorbed every avant-guarde technique in film mak..."

Hi Will, these are really well-articulated points that make a lot of sense. I want to offer up my personal reaction to the book's overall meaning, just because it differs from yours and may make for some interesting conversation :)...

I didn't feel that the overall implication of the book was that cynicism is the way to go. For me, the chapter of charts written by Sasha's daughter shows us that two responsible adults (Drew and Sasha) do find a way to heal the past, create new innocence and move forward. It's not a perfect family life, but clearly it is one that involves attachment, humor and interconnectedness.
I think the book mirrors what is often the case in real life: some people come to terms with the past, many people don't and the compromises of adulthood are often painful and hard to navigate.

I walked away with really mixed feelings. I appreciate her willingness to experiment with form.

But I thought that the book was uneven. Benny and Sasha and Andrew were not compelling. If we'd gone without their chapters, and the PowerPoint presentation (which I gave up on when the narrative stopped) I'd have liked it better.

I think it's important to experiment, but also important to self edit.

Rhea feeling that her adult life began doing coke with Lou and Joclyn, resonated for me. Ian Rhea's age and my adolescence in NYin the seventies had some parallels.

Drugs, clubs and fancy restaurants with older men is what grown up girls did. One year you're playing the Partrige Family with Ann and Veronica and arguing about who gets tobe Laurie. The next you discover David Bowie. You feel like you invented him or he invented you. You hold your breath and wait for life to start.

In whatever ways she succeeded or failed with this book, she got the transitions between the phases of life dead on.

That's a great paragraph, Deborah, that's all I can say. I actually googled it thinking it was a quote. Maybe you should write the next novel so we can read it.

I'm actually working on one with a friend. Fantasy though we are trying for literary and very slow going. In a week we've gone from 23 pages to 24

Ah, take heart from Oscar Wilde's famous quote about a single comma! That happens.

Yeah. Perfect example.

Yeah. Perfect example.

Deborah, I'm looking forward to reading this fantasy novel!

Salome, my interpretation is very close to yours and since you and Deborah both mentioned it, how does everyone feel about chapter 12?

I will say the first time I read the novel I loathed this chapter, mostly because I hate PowerPoint with a passion and the idea of having to read anything in that format outside of the day job has no appeal to me.

On the second read though I found myself enjoying the way that Egan used it to let us get a sense of who Sasha's daughter is. (That being said I hope this is the first and last work of fiction that uses PowerPoint as a narrative device.)

I dreaded the power point chapter until I got into it. Then I found it surprisingly enjoyable. Others have commented about how well the author switches between male and female characters, and gets the point of view right for both. I was impressed with how well Chapter 12 captured the teenager's point of view. I have kids in that generation, and this is the way they communicate--in terse, cryptic comments rather than extended prose. They much prefer text messages to actual phone conversations. I thought this chapter worked very well, and I take that as a sign of Egan's genius. Like Jason, I hope this is the first and last work of fiction that uses PowerPoint as a narrative device.

I thought it was a great concept, and applaud it's use..but I thought it started well and then refused to stop long after it ran out of story to tell. So perhaps some more months honing and polishing it would have helped it.

Re: kids and cryptic comments using alt. media, I use it and see it's attraction. It's less pressure than calling somebody, you can reply several hours later if you feel like it, and regarding it's terse cryptic form, it has the same powerful emptiness that short poems or haiku can have. Often times a text message can be quite powerful in its lack of expression.

Will, I believe your assessment is spot on for my tastes. It has been a while since I read the book, but the idea that the characters are forced rings absolutely true with me, and the foreshadowing was too gimmicky and annoying. I also felt that there was a noticeable slide in quality of narrative from beginning to end, as if the first few chapters were far more carefully crafted than later chapters.

Have I missed the comments so far on the impact of the story moving in multiple directions not only into the past and present, but also into the future (1225?)?

We've talked around it a little, but have not really discussed it. Some readers do not like getting the instant sneak preview of what is going to happen to a character in the next twenty years. Some have expressed some confusion. Me, I usually spent the first part of every chapter just trying to figure out whose point of view I was getting, and if it was anyone I had met yet.

I didn't have an issue with the decision not to be linear. I only thought the results were uneven.

Deborah wrote: "I didn't have an issue with the decision not to be linear. I only thought the results were uneven."

But what about telling you who the character was going to be out beyond the present (e.g., 2025)? Also, do you think the book was written from the perspective of a particular point in time, looking toward the past or towards the future? Or, did you feel each section just simply is written from the perspective of that point in time? (Or were you like me and didn't notice the specific time relationships, especially into the future? I also haven't thought thoroughly about the time perspective from which a particular section is written.)

I felt that each section was simply written from the perspective of that point in time.