The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 14 July of Sodom and Gomorrah, to page 164 (to the paragraph beginning: “We were told that the carriage was at the door...”)

Marcel Proust wrote: "... and writers are a pretty low class."

And: "On the whole, though, the wisest thing is to stick to dead authors."

Yet our favorite Narrator is himself an aspiring writer (though at this point he's definitely in the doldrums.) ... Or did he realize that he would only be known as an author (here Proust and the Narrator blend in my mind) after his death?

Many of us in the group are also aspiring authors, and these small little snippets struck me right away. I am one of those who prefers the classics, books written by long-dead authors. And yet I catch myself trying to get people interested in my own work. While it at first made me feel like a hypocrite, reflecting upon these words deepens my respect for Proust. For he stuck to his guns, and completed his Search.

Just some random thoughts in the beginning of this week's reading. Now back to the text...

Not only am I a prisoner of my sheep I was bitten by a garlic bug and the only freeing antidote for my insomnia is a lamb garlic spam:

The 2013 Garlic Harvest

The 2013 harvest is in. As always we start pulling garlic on July 4th; in 4 days '10,000' (the ancient Chinese used that number to mean many) heads are harvested, washed and in the barn to dry—but who can wait—I eat it now.

I love garlic sliced raw into dashes of Banfi Extra Vergine Olio de Oliva that Sydney brought back from Tuscany and scooped out with torn pieces of San Francisco Sourdough bread from our Saturday neighbor at the Union Square Greenmarket,
As always, our garlic is raised with no herbicides, no pesticides, no chemical fertilizers. It is not a GMO; it was planted by hand and harvested by hand. Our garlic is as natural as rain falling.

Buy now from the Garlic Store.
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Martin wrote: "Marcel Proust wrote: "... and writers are a pretty low class."

And: "On the whole, though, the wisest thing is to stick to dead authors."

Yet our favorite Narrator is himself an aspiring writer ..."


I also find it hard to fit in new authors when there are so many of the great authors waiting to be read.

Perhaps along the lines of this idea :

"Online browsing, by comparison, places new titles alongside other new titles in similar genres — the idea being that if you like this, you’ll also like more of the same." via http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/boo...

A perfect solution would be to put the new title next to a classic. This mixing of the old with a similar style from the new and would be rather appealing to the reader.

Eugene wrote: "Not only am I a prisoner of my sheep I was bitten by a garlic bug and the only freeing antidote for my insomnia is a lamb garlic spam:

The 2013 Garlic Harvest

The 2013 harvest is in. As always we..."

Eugene, I must share with you this garlic recipe that I got from Elif Batuman's blog last year. It is absolutely delicious!! I make it whenever I make roast chicken.

‎1.5 tablespoons fresh garlic, minced (I never measure but just throw in a handful)
Squeeze of a lemon
1/4 cup canola oil, a little at a time
2 cold egg whites
pinch of salt
1/4 cup canola oil, a little at a time ( using olive oil makes it turn yellow, the canola oil gives it a white color)
Mix in a food processor in that order, slowly, for 2 minutes total or so.
Voila.

I usually make it ahead of time and refridgerate it for it to have time to thicken. It's like mayonaise. Garlic has so many health benefits.

You absolutely must try it!!!

ReemK10 wrote: ...Garlic has so many health benefits. You absolutely must try it!!!

I eat cru, not being much of a cook; maybe at your place sometime... ;-)

Marcel Proust wrote: I was beginning to learn the exact value of the language, spoken or mute, of aristocratic affability, an affability that is happy to shed balm upon the sense of inferiority of those towards whom it is directed, though not to the point of dispelling that inferiority, for in that case it would no longer have any raison d'être.

"But you are our equal, if not our superior," the Guermantes seemed, in all their actions, to be saying; and they said it in the nicest way imaginable, in order to be loved and admired, but not to be believed; that one should discern the fictitious character of this affability was what they called being well-bred; to suppose it to be genuine, a sign of ill-breeding.

Shortly after this, as it happened, I was to receive a lesson which finally enlightened me, with the most perfect accuracy, as to the extent and limits of certain forms of aristocratic affability. ML p. 84

The bow, to the Duke and the Queen of England, at the Duchesse de Montmorency's party.

It would seem in reading forward, as well as looking backward at what we've read, that we might question the 'affability' shown to the Narrator in his interactions with all the Guermantes' set. Promises or warnings is what Proust makes (the Narrator makes) time and again in this week's reading with information that will be revealed to the reader in the future. For example, he reveals after the fact the encounter of Jupien and Charlus, he reveals his enlightenment by the bow in a shorter time frame and still to be revealed are the Narrator's value to the Duc and Duchesse which had been promised.

The other thing I'm reading for is Proust's similes which he makes use of frequently and they can be extensive even with as many words, or more, in them as what they are supposed to explain or 'clarify'.

Stylistic devices.

Eugene wrote: "ReemK10 wrote: ...Garlic has so many health benefits. You absolutely must try it!!!

I eat cru, not being much of a cook; maybe at your place sometime... ;-)"

:) What on earth is cru? Don't be lazy. Just try it. You have so much garlic. Who knows maybe you'll put the recipe up on your website.

Eugene wrote: "Marcel Proust wrote: I was beginning to learn the exact value of the language, spoken or mute, of aristocratic affability, an affability that is happy to shed balm upon the sense of inferiority of ..."

The bow to the Queen and to the Duke struck me as well (not only because the topic came up in an earlier week). I can see the mature narrator, looking back, shaking his head as the brash young man bends so deeply in his act. As I think about it, I can see Peter Sellers, in one of his many roles, bowing gracefully but with that smirk on his face.

ReemK10 wrote: :) What on earth is cru?

Raw

"Time and again," in message 8, even though the Narrator 'sees' Jupien and Charlus in Vol. 3 he postpones the telling of it until after his visit with Swann at the Guermantes in Vol. 3 but before we read of his attendance at the soiree of the Princess later that evening in Vol. 4.

There are three time frames here 1.) the duration of reading time, i.e. the number of words or pages that we must read to 'hear' the story; 2.) the duration of actual time that the characters took to act their roles in the story as if they were living beings; 3.) the time of the telling of the story which might be anytime. And there is a 4th time frame, sometimes including the former, that all fiction, movies, etc. entertain...flash forwards, their opposites and the extension/contraction of story space due to editing choices, cutting, etc.

Notice that the bow at Duchesse de Montmorency's party probably happened much later in 'story time' but we are told on the same page in 'reading time'.

Where are we? when? who's talking?...time considerations are quite important in a novel about time, I would think.

Eugene wrote: "ReemK10 wrote: :) What on earth is cru?

Raw"

Wow, you must have a lot of energy!Get your B-12 vitamins. Eugene, try this recipe instead:
http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/foo...

@ReemK10

http://www.catskill-merino.com/

Just a quick comment on the various versions available. As i mentioned in an earlier post I spent last year completing the novel in the new translation. I had wondered what reading the MKE version would be like. The short answer is that it feels a little "stodgier", a bit more "formal". While re-reading GW in the MKE I found myself turning to the new translation to explore the differences. Now that I have caught up in the MKE version I am able to enjoy this translation as it is. I am reading the Folio edition and the page numbers all over the place with respect to those that are posted. It is very helpful to know what the next sentence is, and if anyone had the inclination a brief description of the scene might help too. For example, for this week the page we end on is 116.

Eugene wrote: "@ReemK10

http://www.catskill-merino.com/"

Love it! Thanks Eugene! :)

"Where are we? when? who's talking?...

To sum story/reading time and narration what we have is an elasticity in both; it becomes more difficult to identify the speaker as the younger narrator gets older and Proust in subsequent volumes becomes freer to play with time in the telling of his stories.

As we do when we read, we learn; as does Proust when he writes.

Eugene, here is a garlic recipe that will make you plotz. Chop an onion, grate a couple big zucchinis, add salt, an egg, handful of flour, into a gloppy mix and cook like pancakes. Where's the garlic, you ask? The sauce: (hot pancakes, cold sauce): cold plain yoghurt with anywhere from one to six garlic cloves put through a garlic press, with a little bit of salt, to put on--and I cannot spell this right--the mudjvair (it's a Turkish dish).

Martin wrote: "Marcel Proust wrote: "... and writers are a pretty low class."

And: "On the whole, though, the wisest thing is to stick to dead authors."

Yet our favorite Narrator is himself an aspiring writer ..."

I don't think that loving classics and writing in a different genre are necessarily at odds, Martin, and it certainly does not make you a hypocrite for advocating your style of writing. I think that there is room for both and most people have pretty eclectic tastes.

Eugene wrote: "ReemK10 wrote: ...Garlic has so many health benefits. You absolutely must try it!!!

I eat cru, not being much of a cook; maybe at your place sometime... ;-)"

And what on earth is the lamb garlic spam? This insomniac here is dying to know!

I love these garlic recipes from Reem and Elizabeth. I feel wafts of garlic seeping through my keyboard.

Eugene: something for everybody. I eat "cru" also, and love the recipes, Eugene's sheepblog and yarn store as I am a weaver.

Is everybody stupefied by the prospect that Proust may turn out to be a semi-autistic Idiot-Savant, or is this weeks reading assignment pretty boring, or what?

Jack wrote: "Is everybody stupefied by the prospect that Proust may turn out to be a semi-autistic Idiot-Savant, or is this weeks reading assignment pretty boring, or what?"

It is shocking, the rise in the number of children with autism in the past two decades.

From the Mayo Clinic:
Autism: Symptoms
"Children with autism generally have problems in three crucial areas of development — social interaction, language and behavior. But because autism symptoms and severity vary greatly, two children with the same diagnosis may act quite differently and have strikingly different skills. In most cases, though, children with severe autism have marked impairments or a complete inability to communicate or interact with other people."
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/auti...

Both the narrator and Proust were welcomed into "society" for their engaging conversational style.

Marcelita wrote: "Both the narrator and Proust were welcomed into "society" for their engaging conversational style."

I'm relieved to see the discussion back on track - if I were the Duchess de Guermantes, I would probably have something scathing to say about lamb and garlic being all very well as long as you don't have to have them for breakfast! - I usually read the Proust discussions while drinking my morning coffee!

As the layers are built up on this extensive but really quite contained story - I mean contained in time and place and numbers of characters but not in wisdom and insights - I am more and more impressed by how well Proust must have known himself, must have examined his own mind and motivations; I now think of him as being an incredible balanced and grounded individual rather than suffering from any of the conditions mentioned above or elsewhere.

I've been amused this week by Mme de Citri (Mrs Bitter Lemon?) and her endless boredom.
"...finalement, ce fut la vie elle-même qu'elle nous déclara une chose rasante sans qu'on sût bien où elle prenait son terme de comparaison."

@Elizabeth :-)
@MMR :-)
@Jocelyne: As you know spam is unsolicited advertising and here is more for Mme de Fionnuala and her breakfast: When we make Lamb Bacon we take the unused smoked & cured ends and put them into a Garlic Bacon Lamb Sausage http://catskill-merino.com/store/10 Reading Proust works well for insomnia ;-)

@Jack: Proust uses, more than usual, 3rd person omniscient narration in this week's reading instead of 1st person narration where the younger Narrator divines the thoughts of the person he interacts with while his older self interprets them to give a meaning which I find more interesting.

Pour ma part j'étais indigné de l'abominable petit discours que venait de tenir M. de Charlus.

Hmmm...isn't our Narrator being a little disingenuous here?

Fionnuala wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Both the narrator and Proust were welcomed into "society" for their engaging conversational style."

I'm relieved to see the discussion back on track - if I were the Duchess de Gu..."

Welcome back, Fionnuala, Kalliope. It looks like Eugene brought the sheep home. Is Karen la brebis égarée? I hope that walking in Proust's footsteps met your expectations. Marcelita, how was the conference?

Fionnuala wrote: "I'm relieved to see the discussion back on track - if I were the Duchess de Guermantes, I would probably have something scathing to say..."


Thank you for bringing the focus of the thread back to the week's reading, Fionnuala.

My excuses to everyone for being away these last two weeks. I have fallen a bit behind in my reading, but not in my learning of Proust, since I was Prousting in France. I will be catching up with my reading and posting very soon.

May I remind everyone that these threads are for the discussion of the text and that the Lounge is a better place for general chit-chat?

Thank you all.

When the hosts are away, the group members will play. ;)

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "When the hosts are away, the group members will play. ;)"

LOL!

Saint-Loup flags in love, literature & Dreyfus--each important to the Narrator--Robert has become a changed man.

Nietzsche could have said it.

For the most dangerous of all concealments is that of the crime itself in the mind of the guilty party. ML p.156

I think one of the most successful characters in La recherche is le Duc. I have a great time with his "tirades". May be my impression is very much favored by the reader of my Audio version. Superb declamation.

La Duchesse is keen to visit the stained glass of Montfort-l'Amaury.

There are 37 of these pieces and I am posting a couple of the windows, the St-Hubert and the one of Lazarus. They are from the Renaissance and although I am generally not too fond of Renaissance stained glass (much prefer the Medieval), these are very beautiful.

The church is in the Ile-de-France region.






The landscape sections are extraordinary.

Marcelita wrote: "Jack wrote: "Is everybody stupefied by the prospect that Proust may turn out to be a semi-autistic Idiot-Savant, or is this weeks reading assignment pretty boring, or what?"

...

Both the narrator and Proust were welcomed into "society" for their engaging conversational style.
"

I don't know where you get that from, I've seen nothing of that in the text. Can you quote a couple of engaging conversations he's had, other than with himself? Must one be born w autism, or can it hit in later life, as a result of trauma, shell-shock, ennui, anomie(sic), LSD, terminal inertia,...

In this section we have the first mention of Debussy and of César Franck.

Inevitably, the two sons of Mme de Surgis-le-Duc make me think of the two Bibesco brothers, Antoine and Emmanuel. They were Romanian and we have Charlus saying:

Ce doivent être deux Orientaux, ils ont certains traits caractéristiques, ce sont peut-être des Turcs.

Antoine:



Emmanuel:

Kalliope wrote: "I think one of the most successful characters in La recherche is le Duc. I have a great time with his "tirades". May be my impression is very much favored by the reader of my Audio version. Supe..."

The picture Proust paints for the reader of the Duc, Mme de G, and Charlus are full of detail but when we examine how he has achieved this sense of detail, we find the portraits are less dependent on physical description than we first thought. It is the characters' words, glances and gestures that create our image of them more than any physical description. Sometimes when I'm reading, I feel I'm at a play.
However, with Swann in this section, Proust really prioritises the physical description - the large nose, the sunken cheeks. Interesting too how he describes his behaviour; before he was sometimes a 'mufle', now he has become a 'prophet'.... but he hasn't forgotten how to enjoy the view of an attractive cleavage!

On a second reading, I'm struck by how dreamlike this party is; the Narrator seems to float through its gay atmosphere and the people he encounters. The preponderance of 3rd person omniscient narration lends that dream feeling to this reader. There is the Narrator's trying to get introduced to the Prince in last week's reading that parallels his trying to talk to Swann this week. There are several future revelations that the reader is promised regarding what Swann tells him, his future relations with the Princess, etc. And there is the marvelous exit as the Guermantes descend the staircase, the Duchess enraged, Mme de Gallardon snippy, Mme d'Orvillers smiling as she ascends and the brothers so tender, so wistful.

Kalliope: La Duchesse is keen to visit the stained glass of Montfort-l'Amaury.

Actually, beautiful though it is, what she is mainly doing is putting down Mme de Sainte-Euverte's garden party. Her remark, the Narrator implies, says that this party is not "top drawer" as it were, and of no importance to go to.

And: re Swann's enjoyment of Mme Surgis-le-Duc's cleavage, even though he is practically moribund...this is where that old favorite, universality comes in. I remember one of my uncles, at 92, in a nursing home, making an admiring comment on an attendant's butt...it was so dear.

@Jack. I had the same impression as Jack. The narrator may have been engaged but I did not find him engaging at all and at times I wondered why they invited him. He seemed to be just a sounding-board.

@Kalliope. I am impressed at the fact that you can concentrate on audio alone; I find myself having to re-read a section or a sentence sometimes and I wonder how it would be just listening instead.

@Eugene. I felt the same way about the dreamlike quality of the scene although I could not articulate it to myself. For some odd reason I found myself thinking of Le Grand Meaulnes which has absolutely nothing to do with this. Now I realize that it must have been this dreamlike, subtly surreal quality to it.

The physical descriptions and the conversations are so incredibly detailed. Nothing gets past him, whether it is a cleavage or the most minute conversational nuance. It may have been last week but I had to smile at an expression he reports when the Princess de Guermantes claims to feel intimidated by the royalty invited to her party. "Elles ne pouvaient nullement intimider la princesse de Guermantes, ....qui disait:'Mes petits Cobourg' comme elle eût dit 'Mes petits chiens'.(my little dogs). (For some reason, I have had this irrepressible, biological urge to switch to French mid-stream, and finding the corresponding quotes in English is a bit of a challenge at times.)

Elizabeth wrote: "And: re Swann's enjoyment of Mme Surgis-le-Duc's cleavage, even though he is practically moribund...this is where that old favorite, universality comes in. I remember one of my uncles, at 92, in a..."

Cute! Boys will be boys.

Jocelyne wrote: "@Jack. I had the same impression as Jack. The narrator may have been engaged but I did not find him engaging at all and at times I wondered why they invited him. He seemed to be just a sounding-boa..."

I think that is why he was invited, and why he was such a favorite. He doesn't contradict, doesn't argue, he seems to smile and listen, absorbing all of the self-interested talk from those at the parties.

Martin wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "@Jack. I had the same impression as Jack. The narrator may have been engaged but I did not find him engaging at all and at times I wondered why they invited him. He seemed to be ju..."

Agree.

St-Loup was very proud to introduce him to his military comrades because the Narrator is such a good conversationist and is very smart (back in the Guermantes book), and that is why he gets finally accepted at the Duchesse (on Saint-Loup's recommendation) and eventually becomes such a favorite.

The Narrator's acuteness in observing the social practices and mores, as well as his knowledge of art and literature and ability, are signs of his social graces.

Jack's point may be valid...but I believe we can infer from the other characters' statements and actions that the narrator has conversational gifts that are both refreshing and knowledgable. And, I would assume, he is a genuine listener. His personality will propel him, beginning with the Marquise de Villeparisis, step by step into "society."

Off the top of my head...the narrator seems to have "charmed" in one way or another the following:

Swann to the narrator: “'Upon my soul, your presence among us does raise the tone of the conversation!'"

Bergotte to the narrator: "...because I can see quite well that you are able to enjoy the pleasures of the mind, and they are probably what means most to you, as to everyone who has known them."

Father to narrator: "Old Norpois told me that Mme de Villeparisis had taken quite a fancy to you, and that you meet all sorts of interesting people in her house. He praised you very highly."

Saint-Loup's thoughts: "If I had spent two or three hours of conversation with Saint-Loup and he had expressed his admiration of what I had said to him ..."

"...he would say 'our friendship' as though he were speaking of some important or delightful thing which had an existence independent of ourselves, and which he soon called--apart from his love for his mistress--the great joy in his life."

Elstir actions: "In the course of the few words that Elstir came to say to us, sitting down at our table, he never replied to me on the several occasions on which I spoke to him of Swann. I began to think that he did not know him. He nevertheless, he asked me to come and see him at his Balbec studio, an invitation he did not extend to Saint-Loup, and which I had earned...by a few words which made him think I was devoted to the arts."

Marcelita wrote: "Jack's point may be valid...but I believe we can infer from the other characters' statements and actions that the narrator has conversational gifts that are both refreshing and knowledgable. And, I..."

These are all very good examples Marcelita.

There is another suitable example of the Narrator's social graces when he is made a series of emphatic and welcoming signs by the Duc as he enters the reception organized by the Duchesse de Montmorency, with the Queen of England holding his arm, even though the Narrator is far away...

Quite a socially distinguishing sign....!!!

Elizabeth wrote: "Kalliope: La Duchesse is keen to visit the stained glass of Montfort-l'Amaury.

Actually, beautiful though it is, what she is mainly doing is putting down Mme de Sainte-Euverte's garden party. Her..."

Thank you Elizabeth, I realize this. It is clear from the text and is also in line with what we have seen of the Duchesse's behavior.

Apart from the story I am very interested in the extraordinary knowledge and sensitivity to the visual arts that Proust presents in his writing. I do not recall any other novel with this wealth of visual content.

Kalliope wrote: "Martin wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "@Jack. I had the same impression as Jack. The narrator may have been engaged but I did not find him engaging at all and at times I wondered why they invited him. He ..."

"St-Loup was very proud to introduce him to his military comrades because the Narrator is such a good conversationist and is very smart..."

Oh, that just reminded me, sometimes the narrator didn't need or wish to be "on."
With Saint-Loup and Rachel in the private room:

"Robert was annoyed only because I did not seem to want to shine more in the eyes of his mistress." [...] 'What a bore you are. Then tell her about Françoise in the Champs-Elysées. She'll enjoy that.'"

Yes, the Narrator is a wonderful conversationalist, many social graces (including the art of recognizing phatic remarks/gestures, e.g. his bow to the Duc & the Queen of England). But think of this also: Proust as a young man was cute as a button, and the narrator probably is, too!

Elizabeth wrote: "Yes, the Narrator is a wonderful conversationalist, many social graces (including the art of recognizing phatic remarks/gestures, e.g. his bow to the Duc & the Queen of England)..."

So, some of you think he is a wonderful conversationalist, others are less sure.
But does it matter? It seems to me that Proust uses the Narrator as a kind of roving reporter who picks up the remarks of the other characters for the reader's benefit. We hear the Narrator's voice from time to time but often he simply paraphrases himself because what he actually says is less important than the pretext it serves to draw someone else out. His own observations on people and life in general rarely come to us through direct speech.