The Year of Reading Proust discussion

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The Captive / The Fugitive
The Captive, vol. 5
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Through Sunday, 29 Sept.: The Captive
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...the faithful listened to Mme Verdurin's words with the
mixture of admiration and uneasiness which certain cruelly realistic and painfully observant plays used at one time to cause; and while they marveled to see their beloved Mistress display her rectitude and independence in a new form, more than one of them, although he assured himself that after all it would not be the same thing, thought of his own death, and wondered whether, on the day it occurred, they would drop a tear or give a party at the Quai Conti. ML p. 319

Tonight I am going to listen to Arcadi Volodos play these pieces.


This week, we get the Narrator's analysis of what Vinteuil achieved in his music and, to me at least, it sounds like a summary of what Proust himself hoped to achieve in La Recherche. This parallel had been highlighted last week when the Narrator sat down to play the sonata and spoke of the alternating strands of voluptuousness and anxiety threaded through the music which seemed to me to correspond to the feeling the entire Recherche gives us, that constant lurching between the sensual in nature, art, music, literature and the angst in human relationships.
When the Narrator imagines Vinteuil being inspired to compose the music by the sight of his sleeping child, the irony of the parallels between the music and the Recherche are striking since the Narrator's memories of Vinteuil's daughter are responsable for much of the tension and anxiety in the second half of the Recherche.


I feel similarly to Fionnuala and to you... I wish Proust lasted forever but I am longing for some reading freedom... I certainly plan to read the work again, but a full year of putting aside other projects is beginning to leave a trace.

I shall be coming back to this. Have to run to my concert.

Reem, to me it feels the opposite... Death is lurking and he already has the stories worked out in his mind but he is running against his clock, instead of trying to lengthen it. With his Final certain, he wants to be able to tell us more than 1001 nights...
But the Arabian work is certainly constantly in his mind.

I've just been reading the part where the Narrator says that the atmosphere created by Vinteuil's later works is no longer the same as in the Sonata. This correonds exactly to our reaction to the shift in mood we have noticed in this fifth book of La Recherche. He speaks of la patrie intérieure, the inner world of the artist, and how it influences the tone of the work. I do really feel Proust is talking about his own work when he is analysing Vinteuil's and I love the synchronicity of it all. This book may well turn out to be my favourite of the seven.
Reem, yes, Les Mille et Une Nuits does get mentioned a lot but I haven't yet figured out exactly what the parallels are. I'm sure it will become clear.

I've just been reading the part where the Narrator says that the atmosphere created by Vinteuil's later w..."
Back from hearing Schumann... wonderful concert with four "encores".
I completely agree with you, Fio, that Proust is talking about his own work when he is discussing the Vinteuil music. I also think he is now spelling out the change of aesthetics that I had also felt in the previous volume, in S&G, which I sensed particularly when he also discussed music. May be then it was expressed in more formalistic ways (coinciding with his first mention of Debussy and the Russians), while now he has, as you say, interiorized it more with the la patrie intérieure.
I am a bit behind in my second, more careful reading, but this aspect certainly requires more attention and thinking.

Coming back to this, Reem, and thinking about it.. He certainly must have been aware of the relationship in the 1001Nights between time and story telling...

Normally, since Beethoven, the seven instruments are composed of 4 strings and 3 winds... There may also be 5 strings (two violins) and a piano and something else.. but not a harp... very strange.
But there is a piece by Maurice Ravel which requires seven instruments and one is a harp. But because it is not the typical combination of a septet, it is called "Introduction et allegro".. and is not grouped under the Septet category.
Here is Ravel and the Harpist (not as young as in the novel...!!)

...près de lui la harpist encore enfant, en jupe courte, dépassée de tous côtés par les rayons horizontaux du quadrilatère d'or pareil à ceux qui dans la chambre magique d'une sibylle figureraient arbitrairement l'éther ...
Incidentally, a harp is not quadrilateral, but triangular... This sort of thing reminds us that Proust was writing from memory and in very awkward physical circumstances.
Anyway, here is Ravel's piece, from 1905, with the harp and it is very beautiful. Worth the listen...
Given the rarity of this kind of grouping of instruments, we can easily imagine that Ravel's is the piece that Proust must have heard and have in mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBm1w8...

This is Charlus praising Morel's double gifts of musician and composer ...
... m'aider à créer un enchaînement de circonstance capables de favoriser un talent double, de musicien et d'écrivain, qui peut un jour acquérir le prestige de celui de Berlioz.
And yesterday's concert was Esa-Pekka Salonen conducting the Philharmonia Orchestra playing Symphonie Fantastique.
So, this week I am lucky that my music listening parallels my reading...

Now that I've read a little more of this week's section, I see that the Narrator/Proust is deliberately and clearly underlining the parallels between the music and his writing and even mentions the irony of Mlle Vinteuil's role in both. He talks about the reams of indecipherable notations Vinteuil left behind and must have wondered at this point if he himself might not need some 'Mlle Vinteuil' to transcribe his own pyramid of hieroglyphics.

Now that I've read a little more of this week's section, I see tha..."
This is why this section, together with last week's are being my favourite in this volume. He is moving away from his obsessions (jealousy and his enclosure) and giving us more comments on his art. The reconstruction of Vinteuil's music struck me.. It is as if he were writing this from beyond the grave, reconstructing what his editors had to do. In last week he commented that the Prefaces to the long works of the nineteenth century writers were more interesting that the works themselves... This section almost reads, if not like a Preface, then as a Postscript.
I will post later on the variations in the text. Are you still reading the eformat?


Tout cela forme un enchaînement de circonstances qui peut avoir son prix pour l'artiste, pour la maîtresse de la maison, servir en quelque sorte de mégaphone à une manifestation qui sera ainsi rendue audible à un public lointain.

We should not be surprised then when later on, Charlus speaks of Bergotte as if he were still alive. We are reading a draft.

Yes, as I'm still away from home. When I get back this weekend, I'll get the paper copy of this volume. I don't like reading on a kindle app although it is practical while traveling. Yes, it's easy to highlight and make notes but I like turning pages and being aware of where I am in the book, the left and the right hand sides, as Martin mentioned above, plus I like to scribble my notes with a pencil - they flow easier that way. And I miss the edition notes in the back of the book. The Narrator mentioned the word 'virtuel' in this section but I don't think he quite had an ereader in mind.
A postscript is exactly what this section sounds like.

..."
Finding the breaks was not easy. I can give you the pages with the endings of the weekly sections.

The Dreyfus affair has been substituted by the Ballets Russes as the pulsating force in Parisian society.
Most extraordinary.


I was listening today to Neville Jason read Charlus at the Verdurin's. He reads him so well and it makes me think that Proust enjoyed writing the character too. In ISOLT there is no one quite like him. Does Carter, or anyone else, mention what Proust's views were on composing him? I know who his reputed models were; what a joy to hear and to read him and I'm sure that it must have been an equal joy to write him--I can hear Proust laugh.
I regret it all the more because in his most brilliant conversation the wit was never divorced from the character, the inspired invention of the one from the arrogance of the other. ML p. 292

I might ask the reader, as one might ask a friend with regard to whom one has forgotten, after so many conversations, whether one has remembered or had a chance to tell him something... ML p. 312

Eugene, reading the septet passage I was so struck by the Vinteuil to Proust parallels, who must himself have been thinking about running out of time and wondering whether destiny, perhaps, would reconstitute as it were his own manuscripts posthumously.
These's considerable emphasis of mortality in this volume which perhaps is merely a reflection of growing older in which we incur more losses both of friend and foe.

Enfin un élève de Cottard.. Oh mais à ce propos je ne vous faisais pas mes condoléances, dis-je, il a été enlevé bien vite le pauvre professeur. Hé bien oui, qu'est-ce que vous voulez, ils es mort comme tout le monde.
And yet, it seems that later on Cottard will show up again, well alive.
A similar case to the one we have seen with Bergotte.

What a change from the way la Duchesse de Guermantes and Mme Verdurin were presented at the beginning...
Charlus speaking..
.. j'ai par exemple invité ma belle-soeur Orianne; il n'est pas certain qu'elle vienne, mai il est certain en revanche si elle vient qu'elle ne comprendra absolument rien. Mais on ne lui demande pas de comprendre, ce qui est au-dessus de ses moyens, mais de parler, ce qui y est approprié admirablement et ce don elle ne se fait pas faute.

And you're right about the "aristocrats" at the musicale; for the first time, I almost felt sorry for Mme. Verdurin.

It made me think of those readers who read Proust's work in a different order to the way I am doing it.. Those who first had read all his articles in the newspapers such as Le Figaro and other publications, and who would later read his novel... all those social portraits.. showing up again, differently...

Tonight I am going to listen to Arcadi Volodos play these pieces."
@ 1:52 Arcadi Volodos responds to a question, "seriously," and I wondered if Proust thought about music in the same way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mycTfe...

I've just been reading the part where the Narrator says that the atmosphere created by Vinteuil's later...
This book may well turn out to be my favourite of the seven...."
Ah, my favorite volume and I continue to uncover layers.
The number seven...
"a song on seven notes;" (p 333)
the seven "loves" of Albertine (p 336)
1. "first faint stirrings" Balbec;
2. "after the game of ferret;"
3. "on the night she slept at the hotel;"
4. "in Paris on the foggy Sunday;"
5. "the night of the Guermantes party;"
6. "at Balbec;"
7. "finally in Paris"
"Each tone was identified by a colour which all the rules in the world could be taught..." (p 338)
The seven colors in a prism:
"--like a ray of sumer sunlight which the prism of the window decomposes before it enters a dark dining-room--all the jewels of the 'Arabian Nights' in unsuspected, multicoloured splendor." (p 338)
The first prism color is violet...but I must stop now.
@Kalliope, your stewardship has been weighed on the "glittering scales" against a "miraculous-weight."
Add to Morel's gifts, his "...growing fame as a...journalist..." (p 285)
(Maybe like "Dominique?" http://www.yorktaylors.free-online.co... )
I agree that there is more "Marcel" in this volume, which he was working on when he died.
Wonder...no time to edit or conscious decision? (In the MET Rush line...away from my library...but will try to find in Carter's/Celeste's book where he wanted to keep just the beginning and the concert scene.

"...the Ballets Russes as the pulsating force in Parisian society...."
Princess Yourbeletieff was modeled on Misia Sert. (Carter, p. 584)
(Any clues why MP may have chosen this name?)
"Misia and All Paris" by Clive James
http://www.clivejames.com/pieces/shad...
"Misia Sert : mémoires troubles"
Radio documentary (in French) http://www.franceculture.fr/emission-...

Coco Chanel and Madame Misia Godebska Natanson Sert, 1910's.

I was listening today to Neville Jason read Charlus at the Verdurin's. He reads him so well and it makes me think that Proust enjoyed writing the character too. In ISOLT there is no one..
Does Carter, or anyone else, mention what Proust's views were on composing him? "
Eugene, this would be a great webcam question! I will submit it, and we may find out. I trust Bill, but I will look through the other biographies.
The question may be answered in his letters. Probably, not in the 4-Volume "Selected Letters," in English, but the 21-Volume (in French) Kolb collection. One day, I want to take a field-trip to the University of Illinois-Urbana. http://www.library.illinois.edu/kolbp/

We must wait to see if the Narrator was right or wrong in his findings about the "joyous motif"; was the art of this motif so new to him that he found it "ugly" because he failed to understand the exquisite beauty of it; had he heard nothing like this before which is a definition of new and high art given in these pages. Was it what Robert Hughes later called, "the shock of the new"?
Truth to tell, this joyous motif did not appeal to me aesthetically; I found it almost ugly, its rhythm was so laboriously earthbound that one could have imitated almost all its essentials simply with the noises made by rapping on a table with drumsticks in a particular way. It seemed to me that Vinteuil had been lacking, here, in inspiration, and consequently I was a little lacking also in the power of attention. ML p. 333
Unregistered wrote: ...reading the septet passage I was so struck by the Vinteuil to Proust parallels, who must himself have been thinking about running out of time and wondering whether destiny, perhaps, would reconstitute as it were his own manuscripts posthumously.
Who would be Proust's cipher, who would be like the friend of Mlle Vinteuil and transcribe his notes as she had done for the composer after he died so that the Narrator could appreciate the exquisite beauty of the septet?
One should note the triangles: Mlle V-the friend of Mlle V-the composer and Albertine-the friend of Mlle V-the Narrator. Who is common between the two triangles, who does the right thing for art and who notices this. We begin the endgame. But as they say it took the Narrator a long time to get into the forest of compulsive jealousy and it will take a long time for him to get out.

Ah!
The pieces were beginning to fit into place for me - I'm a first time reader - but it wasn't yet fully clear to me how it would be all be resolved or what purpose various elements served.
Now I see more....

Oh, yes, Kall. That occurred to me too. It's as if he is explaining the purpose in his oeuvre of his own early writings here, how they prepared the way for the Recherche.
(And how perfect that you are going to Venice. I feel that the Narrator may go there too - he talks about it so much.)
Elizabeth. I hadn't noticed that Charlus called la Reine de Naples Violet but ill go back and check if I get the opportunity.

"...the Ballets Russes a..."
On the number Seven.. Yet another link with The Magic Mountain, although both contemporary works are so very different...

Yes, like Fionnuala, I have not encountered this.. I think it is later on.. I am still not finished with this week's reading. If I find it will get back on this.

"...the Ballets Russes a..."
Misia Sert was a fascinating character.. Painted by Renoir, Toulouse-Lautrec, Bonnard etc...
She is discussed in Gautier-vignal's book Proust connu et inconnu.
There is this book on her: Misia: The Life of Misia Sert

Elizabeth, I just arrived to that section....My opinion is that Moncrieff 2.0 is the correct one.
My edition, and referring to the fan...
Il est d'autant plus touchant qu'il est affreux; la petite violette est incroyable!
My interpretation is that by "violet" he is referring to the violet-sellers. These were poor women who sold the flowers to be worn on the button hole. They were borderline with prostitutes.
So, a pretty terrible thing to say in relation to the Queen of Naples...
This association of the violet flowers and the violet-sellers has come up in this Group before, and I remember Fionnuala also commented on it.
I also posted then about a very famously popular song, composed by the Spaniard José Padilla, called "la violetera" (the violet-seller). He composed it in Spanish but while living and working in Paris and in 1914 and to be performed there first.
If you want to have a laugh...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpldZe...
Incidentally, Sara Montiel, the singer from YouTube, is acting and singing in the Teatro de la Zarzuela, where I will be going to listen to my pianist friend in a couple of weeks. He will be introducing his new CD and playing the Chopin-Debussy repertory. I posted about this, and the relevance to a Proust passage, in the Lounge a few weeks ago.

I missed you and you have been so much on my mind during my Proustian odyssey. How could you not be? More on this in the Group Lounge.I am happy to see that you have been keeping the home fires burning.
I just want to brag a bit and announce that I am up on the reading. While there, I was even treated to a titbit of serendipity. There is ( I forgot where) a very brief reference to the restaurant Guillaume le Conquerant, and it would have gone over my head if I had not visited the village in Dives sur mer precisely the day before reading about it in The Captive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvH_Wm...

If you want to have a laugh.."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpldZe...
Padded-sheer shoulder pads?

Padded-sheer shoulder pads? "
Haha... but those are not shoulder pads, but puffed up sleeves... she is wearing the sexy version of the folkloric dress of Madrid. The dress is called "chulapa".
Doll on a violet background...!!!

Although the YouTube song is a very Spanish version, the interesting thing for us is that it shows what a violet-seller was.. going around with her basket of violets ready to offer them to men....
Padilla the composer was the musician at the Paris Casino.

Padded-sheer shoulder pads? "
Haha... but those are not shoulder pads, but puffed up sleeves... she is wearing the sexy version of the folkloric dress of Madrid. .."
Yes...now that makes sense. If I had a slice of pizza in the oven, it would be inedible...as I was drooling over the food at the San Isidro Festival in Madrid and watching the timeless dancers. One can see the iconic sleeves in these swirling dresses.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwVMYZ16OBs
May 15, 2013 - Uploaded by MadridManSpain
2013 Madrid San Isidro Chulapas Chulapos Dancing El Chotis .

Padded-sheer shoulder pads? "
Haha... but those are not shoulder pads, but puffed up sleeves... she is wearing the sexy version of the folkloric dress of Mad..."
LOL.....
You are quite something for finding things in the web, Marcelita..
Going back to Charlus.... So rude to poor Queen of Naples... with a tacky fan appropriate to a "violette" seller...!!!!

The influences of the Ballet Russes were seen everywhere. Paul Poiret took the lead in clothing, but that is for another day. http://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/exh...
http://www.metmuseum.org/en/exhibitio...
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/poir...
"Does a toque really suit that enormous head of hair which a kakochnyk (kokoshniks) would set off to full advantage?" MP (p 293)

Léon Bakst : Portrait of a Girl Wearing a Kokoshnik
Tamara Karsavina in "Thamar," choreographed by Michel Fokine (1912), costume by Leon Bakst

"Costumes for Thamar"
Léon Bakst
Ballets Russes, 1912

Adolph Bolm as the Prince and Tamara Karsavina as Queen Thamar in 'Thamar'
Photo by Emil Otto ('E.O.') Hoppé; 1912
http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/sea...
http://hcl.harvard.edu/libraries/houg...
http://hcl.harvard.edu/libraries/houg...

Padded-sheer shoulder pads? "
Haha...
Going back to Charlus.... So rude to poor Queen of Naples... with a tacky fan appropriate to a "violette" seller...!!!!..."
Remembered the Victorian rage over flowers; they had their own "language."
Violet: Modesty, Faithfulness...
http://botany.science-dictionary.org/...
Also remembered that Charlus is the only fan painter in the novel.
(Like Madame Lamaire in real life. http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lo... )
"...I was amazed to learn that it was he who had painted the huge fan decorated with black and yellow irises which the Duchess was at this moment unfurling." MP (The Guermantes Way)
At first I "read" the irises as a "Fleur-de-lis, Emblem of France."
But...then I was taken to this iris...and smiled at the name!

'Bumblebee Deelite'
http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/...
And then another "message" was revealed:
IRIS (YELLOW) - Passion
IRIS (GERMAN) - Flame
http://www.victorianbazaar.com/meanin...
Also..."Lime blossom...Fornication"
I am not making this up. ;)
Found on 23 September, but it was revised on 27 September, 2013:
"Language of flowers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_flo...
Lime Blossom, Fornication. ...........Lobelia, Malevolence ... Peach blossom, Long-life, generosity, and bridal hope. Pear blossom ... Plum blossom, Beauty and longevity."
Fornication? Maybe from German folklore...the Linden is the "tree of lovers”.
"Under the Tilia tree
on the open field,
where we two had our bed,
you still can see
lovely both
broken flowers and grass.
On the edge of the woods in a vale,
tandaradei,
sweetly sang the nightingale."
Mediaeval love poem by Walther von der Vogelweide (c. 1170–c. 1230)

The influences of the Ballet Russes were seen everywhere. Paul Poiret took the lead in clothing, but that is for another day. http://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/exh......"
These are all wonderful images, Marcelita. They make me feel I want to reread that section.
My favourite is the one by Bakst...
Books mentioned in this topic
Ruskin's Venice: The Stones Revisited (other topics)The Stones of Venice (other topics)
Ghostwritten (other topics)
Proust connu et inconnu (other topics)
Misia: The Life of Misia Sert (other topics)
More...