Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion

This topic is about
Garment of Shadows
Archived VBC Selections
>
Garment of Shadows by Laurie R. King - VBC October 2012
message 1:
by
Vicki
(last edited Oct 01, 2012 03:29AM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Oct 01, 2012 03:29AM

reply
|
flag

As snatches of memory return to Russell, it's fun to identify the source. The first is from OJER when she awakened in the attic room after the auto accident and Holmes' capture.

(a man, in a heavy fog, explaining the phenomenon)

Then the book ramped up the tension when we learn Mahmoud is missing and his disappearance seems to be tied to Russell. For me that is when the book became a page-turner. I wanted to see how an injured and still somewhat fuzzy Russell would partner with Holmes and how together they would stop a war and find a friend.
I need to do a leisurely read of the final version as I read this in manuscript and then as an ARC. The basic story never changed, but the layering of nuance and the smoothing out of some bumpy spots changed the book from the MS to the ARC.

In my leisurely rereading I have savored the description of Russell's making her way through the Fez medina. Not since the description in GAME of travels in India on the Great Trunk Road have I read descriptions that so vividly invoked all the senses. My sister had a trip to Morocco not so long ago. She said that in the Fez medina they absolutely clung to their guide because they were sure that on their own they would never find their way out.
Be sure to check out the photos of Fez and Morocco on Laurie's website.
PatF wrote: "Alice, the final version works wonders with some wrinkles in the conclusion that were still present in the ARC."
I wish I had realized that before I handed off my newly purchased hardcover copy to my grandma to read (and I think it's now making it's way around the family and I'll probably not see it again until Thanksgiving :-P)!
I wish I had realized that before I handed off my newly purchased hardcover copy to my grandma to read (and I think it's now making it's way around the family and I'll probably not see it again until Thanksgiving :-P)!

Echo the love for Russell's rediscovery of her skills- how disturbingly fascinating, to learn how deadly one can be. (Has echoes of the Bourne story.) Also love Holmes' line about approaching Russell....snort-worthy. (Natch.)
I want to read it again for more depth, and possibly need a re-read of OJER and JUST, for good measure, background, and more context. And jolly good fun. :)

I'm hoping we will be treated to a trip to Japan to discover what happened on the way to San Francisco and LOCK.
I've enjoyed my second reading even more than the first; and although I purposed OJER as our September book, I've found even more affinities than I had expected.
The discussion will no doubt return as people trickle back to their computers from BoucherCon, but in the meantime, I should mention the photos of Morocco and especially Fez on the Pinterest page, here:
http://pinterest.com/laurierking/
Hope you like them--I sure enjoyed having the chance to take them!
Laurie
http://pinterest.com/laurierking/
Hope you like them--I sure enjoyed having the chance to take them!
Laurie
PatF wrote: "I'm hoping we will be treated to a trip to Japan to discover what happened on the way to San Francisco and LOCK."
Laurie said at the GARM launch that she'll be working on that Russell in Japan story next year! She's working on Touchstone #2 right now, to be released next fall; and then Russell #13 in Japan should be out in 2014.
Laurie said at the GARM launch that she'll be working on that Russell in Japan story next year! She's working on Touchstone #2 right now, to be released next fall; and then Russell #13 in Japan should be out in 2014.

I'm reading the audio version and I'm a little thrown by the two different narrators. We have been so admirably served by Jenny Sterlin all these years. She's read all the books even the parts where they are separated and we have things from Holmes' point-of-view, and I'm not sure I like having a second voice now. I know Robert Ian MacKenzie read B4B, so possibly people are used to him, but I haven't read that yet, so it's completely new to me.
Any other thoughts on the audio narrators?
I've been traveling, and just settled into a place with reliable internet so I can finally join the discussion.
GARM easily makes my top three favorite, er maybe five... OK, I like them all, but I really like Holmes and Russell in foreign settings. There were so many great one-liners and scenes in GARM. Like Holmes' idiotic conversation with the thugs. I could go on and on naming specific scenes, but I'll just bring up two points to start off:
1) This was my first time reading an ARC, and it was so interesting to see the little changes between ARC and final publishing. It's pretty amazing how small tweaks can change a story, make it clearer, or change the tone. I noticed a few additions to the final published book that added either depth or new insights to the story. So it was educational for me!
2) The amnesia plot line. A few weeks before I received my ARC, a neighbor was discussing helmet safety with me, because he saw that I didn't make my kids wear a helmet while riding their barbie scooters (bad mother that I am). Anyway, he was a BMX rider who didn't wear a helmet and had a pretty bad fall, which gave him a bad concussion, and temporary amnesia. Apparently he couldn't remember where he lived or who the strange woman was who lived with him. He said it cleared up in about a week.
So when I started reading GARM, I thought to myself... wow, this really could happen! I thought the amnesia plot was handled well, and wondered if Laurie did any research on amnesia.
GARM easily makes my top three favorite, er maybe five... OK, I like them all, but I really like Holmes and Russell in foreign settings. There were so many great one-liners and scenes in GARM. Like Holmes' idiotic conversation with the thugs. I could go on and on naming specific scenes, but I'll just bring up two points to start off:
1) This was my first time reading an ARC, and it was so interesting to see the little changes between ARC and final publishing. It's pretty amazing how small tweaks can change a story, make it clearer, or change the tone. I noticed a few additions to the final published book that added either depth or new insights to the story. So it was educational for me!
2) The amnesia plot line. A few weeks before I received my ARC, a neighbor was discussing helmet safety with me, because he saw that I didn't make my kids wear a helmet while riding their barbie scooters (bad mother that I am). Anyway, he was a BMX rider who didn't wear a helmet and had a pretty bad fall, which gave him a bad concussion, and temporary amnesia. Apparently he couldn't remember where he lived or who the strange woman was who lived with him. He said it cleared up in about a week.
So when I started reading GARM, I thought to myself... wow, this really could happen! I thought the amnesia plot was handled well, and wondered if Laurie did any research on amnesia.
Interesting comment on temporary amnesia, Sabrina. I admit, I was rolling my eyes when I heard about the amnesia plot. Amnesia being such a cliche, over-used plot device (it seems like every tv show has an episode where someone loses their memory and they spend the whole time trying to figure out who they are). But since it was so short lived and really only served as a way to extend the mystery and wasn't the mystery itself, I think it worked pretty well.
And Sara, I hadn't even thought of the echos of Bourne! Now I want to read it again with that in mind. I loved the Bourne movies; and his amnesia never struck me as odd at all...hmmm.
And Sara, I hadn't even thought of the echos of Bourne! Now I want to read it again with that in mind. I loved the Bourne movies; and his amnesia never struck me as odd at all...hmmm.

In reading GARM I've become fascinated with this part of the world and its history. I was unfamiliar with the term Maghreb and discover that traditionally it has referred to Morocco, Algeria, Tunis, and Libya, but now also includes Mauritania. My memory of the history of the region was akin to 1066 and All That, what one remembers from school of the history of England. My memory came mainly from Latin classes: the Punic Wars, Hannibal crossing the Alps with elephants, and Cato standing up every day in the Roman senate saying, "Carthage must be destroyed."

Erin wrote: "Interesting comment on temporary amnesia, Sabrina. I admit, I was rolling my eyes when I heard about the amnesia plot. Amnesia being such a cliche, over-used plot device (it seems like every tv s..."
Yeah, it was one of those completely random coincidence moments where you go... Huh, cool. IDK though, with all these head injuries maybe Russell should start wearing a helmet when she's on a case... or just walking around. ;D
Yeah, it was one of those completely random coincidence moments where you go... Huh, cool. IDK though, with all these head injuries maybe Russell should start wearing a helmet when she's on a case... or just walking around. ;D
PatF wrote: "Sabrina, the amnesia information is interesting. I had wondered if other cases of head-trauma amnesia followed the course of Russell's.
In reading GARM I've become fascinated with this part of the..."
I really enjoyed the historical parts too. I had no prior historical knowledge of the area, and it made me want to read up on it.
In reading GARM I've become fascinated with this part of the..."
I really enjoyed the historical parts too. I had no prior historical knowledge of the area, and it made me want to read up on it.
Oh, and also... I really hope there is a Mycroft centered novel on the horizon, because GARM really built on the feud between Russell and Mycroft that we saw in GOTH. And also in PIRA, wasn't there a sentence which mentioned that they were wondering where Mycroft was?
I like that Russell was able to see past her friendship with Mahmoud to see the deeper conspiracy, and I think it was even mentioned that she was probably only able to do that because of her amnesia, which made her start nearly from scratch.
I feel like the same is going on with Mycroft. We know Russell has good instincts, so it makes you wonder about the level of unease she has towards Mycroft. It's definitely something Holmes would be blind too since he's too close to his brother.
I like that Russell was able to see past her friendship with Mahmoud to see the deeper conspiracy, and I think it was even mentioned that she was probably only able to do that because of her amnesia, which made her start nearly from scratch.
I feel like the same is going on with Mycroft. We know Russell has good instincts, so it makes you wonder about the level of unease she has towards Mycroft. It's definitely something Holmes would be blind too since he's too close to his brother.

You've reminded me of something that had been bothering me but that I forgot when discussion of the book began. It was very odd that Holmes could not find Mycroft in PIRA, because we know from Canon that Mycroft goes virtually nowhere except his flat, his office, and his club (and, since the revelation in GOTH, occasional outings with Mrs. Melas). Given that limited number of possibilities, why couldn't Holmes find him? I expected that to be answered in GARM, but it wasn't even touched upon.
I am sort of disappointed to find Mycroft being turned into a bad guy -- or, at least, a morally ambiguous guy. I suppose it's childish of me, but I liked it better when Russell could see him, as she once said, as "sea-green incorruptible" and a "fixed point in [her] universe."

Good discussion going here, post-BoucherCon!
About the amnesia: yes, you know me well, I research everything. But interestingly, this is one of the areas I didn't take seventeen dozen books from the library about. I started online, where I found a number of highly detailed stories, case histories, and discussion groups, all of which boiled down to: there are as many sides to amnesia as there are amnesiacs. Brains react to trauma in many different ways. Some people regain memory quickly, others never. Many always have gray areas in their recall. Certain kinds of memory don't tend to disappear--education seems to be stored in a different place in the brain than personal history, for example, as Russell finds. Skills, particularly those with body memory, are there for the discovery, even if the person can't remember how they came to have those skills. So considering that everyone's experience is unique, and that for a 1924 book there was point to the medical details of the injury, I had no need to burden my back with library visits.
About the amnesia: yes, you know me well, I research everything. But interestingly, this is one of the areas I didn't take seventeen dozen books from the library about. I started online, where I found a number of highly detailed stories, case histories, and discussion groups, all of which boiled down to: there are as many sides to amnesia as there are amnesiacs. Brains react to trauma in many different ways. Some people regain memory quickly, others never. Many always have gray areas in their recall. Certain kinds of memory don't tend to disappear--education seems to be stored in a different place in the brain than personal history, for example, as Russell finds. Skills, particularly those with body memory, are there for the discovery, even if the person can't remember how they came to have those skills. So considering that everyone's experience is unique, and that for a 1924 book there was point to the medical details of the injury, I had no need to burden my back with library visits.
PatF wrote: "I have really liked Mycroft too as a source of information and help and as a place of refuge. In GOTH I thought Russell was rather naive and rigid in seeing his use of funds that needed to disappea..."
That conflict between altruism and self-service is so interesting. Or is it self-preservation? Is working to maintain stability considered preservation of one's lifestyle? Or does trying to preserve your style of life come across as something less honorable and thus self-serving?
And then, how does that extend to government? It always seems like, despite the fact that they are made up of people, governments don't have the same moral compass or (acknowledged) obligation that people would if they were making a decision by themselves.
That's one thing I've never really understood about colonialism. I feel like it's one thing to remotely manipulate another group for economic gain, but totally different when you're actually interacting with them. Like turning a blind eye to oppression if it's all rumor to you would probably be easier to self-justify, but you'd have to be a lot more hard-hearted to physically be there and still ignore it.
But then again, as we see with Lyautey, the people on the ground seem often to form more of a connection with the people/culture/country they are living in than the government giving the directions.
That conflict between altruism and self-service is so interesting. Or is it self-preservation? Is working to maintain stability considered preservation of one's lifestyle? Or does trying to preserve your style of life come across as something less honorable and thus self-serving?
And then, how does that extend to government? It always seems like, despite the fact that they are made up of people, governments don't have the same moral compass or (acknowledged) obligation that people would if they were making a decision by themselves.
That's one thing I've never really understood about colonialism. I feel like it's one thing to remotely manipulate another group for economic gain, but totally different when you're actually interacting with them. Like turning a blind eye to oppression if it's all rumor to you would probably be easier to self-justify, but you'd have to be a lot more hard-hearted to physically be there and still ignore it.
But then again, as we see with Lyautey, the people on the ground seem often to form more of a connection with the people/culture/country they are living in than the government giving the directions.

I've found face-to-face contact to be more caring than organizational actions. The big exception is when people of another race, class, religion, ethnic group, or even gender are considered "not us" and regarded as less than human. Years ago I head a police officer say that rape is natural and not a big concern, but male homosexual contact is unnatural and must be stamped out. Many British writers describe their people as a rather snobbish lot. I expect that had a sounder basis in the past than in the present.


Everyone's taste is so different, isn't it, Pat? I'm just glad you are one of "us," the group that loves detail, history, and superb writing. I think we are the "coooool kids." LOL
Laurie wrote: "Good discussion going here, post-BoucherCon!
About the amnesia: yes, you know me well, I research everything. But interestingly, this is one of the areas I didn't take seventeen dozen books from t..."
Thanks for the quick response along with some interesting information, Laurie!
About the amnesia: yes, you know me well, I research everything. But interestingly, this is one of the areas I didn't take seventeen dozen books from t..."
Thanks for the quick response along with some interesting information, Laurie!
Great comments Erin, Pat, and Lenore. Very thought provoking. And I apologize for the long post that follows!
Colonization and such is a debate that is still going on today. It was mentioned in GARM that the Moroccans viewed the French with mixed feelings, because if I remember correctly, there were many positive things that the French had done for their country, like building roads and a port.
As far as Mycroft goes: he's completely loyal to the Crown, and his job is to safeguard Britain (seems like that anyway). I think he'd get along with Spock and the philosophy that 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' or in this case, Britain.
In his eyes, sending two agents to assassinate the Abd el-Krim brothers was probably the simplest way to avoid further bloodshed. And he likely saw them as little more than terrorists.
It was even mentioned that the Berber culture was centered around bloodshed: a boy was not considered a man until he killed someone. Ali and Mahmoud are ruthless themselves. We know they have no qualms about torturing people for information, and who knows how many people they killed while fighting with Abd el-Krim's men.
The more that I think on it... Russell's distaste seems to stem from Governments in general. And as it was pointed out, she was naive to think that someone with so much power in a government would not have blood on his hands.
I might be way off with this, but the whole situation sort of reminds me of a child who idolizes their father. As that child grows they realize that their father has done things that they find difficult to associate with their loving father: such as killing another. It is unsettling to discover that someone who you trust is capable of such violence. Eventually you come to terms with it, as Russell will probably come to terms with Mycroft and accept him as a necessary lesser of two evils.
Colonization and such is a debate that is still going on today. It was mentioned in GARM that the Moroccans viewed the French with mixed feelings, because if I remember correctly, there were many positive things that the French had done for their country, like building roads and a port.
As far as Mycroft goes: he's completely loyal to the Crown, and his job is to safeguard Britain (seems like that anyway). I think he'd get along with Spock and the philosophy that 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' or in this case, Britain.
In his eyes, sending two agents to assassinate the Abd el-Krim brothers was probably the simplest way to avoid further bloodshed. And he likely saw them as little more than terrorists.
It was even mentioned that the Berber culture was centered around bloodshed: a boy was not considered a man until he killed someone. Ali and Mahmoud are ruthless themselves. We know they have no qualms about torturing people for information, and who knows how many people they killed while fighting with Abd el-Krim's men.
The more that I think on it... Russell's distaste seems to stem from Governments in general. And as it was pointed out, she was naive to think that someone with so much power in a government would not have blood on his hands.
I might be way off with this, but the whole situation sort of reminds me of a child who idolizes their father. As that child grows they realize that their father has done things that they find difficult to associate with their loving father: such as killing another. It is unsettling to discover that someone who you trust is capable of such violence. Eventually you come to terms with it, as Russell will probably come to terms with Mycroft and accept him as a necessary lesser of two evils.
Alice wrote: Everyone's taste is so different, isn't it, Pat? I'm just glad you are one of "us," the group that loves detail, history, and superb writing. I think we are the "coooool kids." LOL
Yes! I'm finally part of the cool kids.
Yes! I'm finally part of the cool kids.


It is not so clear that the Japanese would have surrendered without the second bomb. Even after the second bomb AND the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, there was substantial resistance to surrender. When Hirohito ordered the war council to surrender, there was an attempted coup d'état. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrende... . Without the second bomb, would the would-be resisters have had more support, and possibly dragged the war on? Hard to say. I don't pretend to know, but it makes me less critical of the decision to drop the second bomb.



I like the way you think, Mary. Russell has likened Mycroft's brain to Russian nesting dolls, something else always inside of what is presented, complex, or wheels within wheels. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if his motivation was to put the Hazr's in a position where they would have to find alternative solutions. Although the Hazr's may now be totally rogue and I don't think that would have been Mycroft's ultimate goal. He would have had an end game solution of his own to bring them back into the fold...as you say, they are too valuable a resource. Now you have my mind wheeling over whether or not Mycroft was playing a very convoluted game here.

Oh, you ARE a deviously clever person yourself!

Shortly after I read Mary's comment, I went to take a nap, but my subconscious apparently stayed up. When I awoke, it was with the question: WAS it Mycroft's order?
We know that Mycroft became ill in December 1923. In GOTH, pp. 303-04, he says:
My illness came at a bad time. Decisions were being made with great rapidity last December, after the election but before Labor took over....
I lost two key months to illness. When I was fit enough to resume work in February, I thought at first the changes around me were due to the new régime....
...But when I returned to my office, it was nearly impossible to sift rumour from fact and policy from gossip. I felt there was something awry, I sensed a leak and a degree of manipulation, but everything had been overturned all around me, and in any case, the interference was very subtly done.
Now compare this to what Ali tells us in GARM, pp. 66-67. You will remember that the events of JUST wound up in December 1923. After the party at Justice Hall to welcome the new Duke, the family celebrates Christmas in London, and Marsh and Ali disappear again.
A year ago...Mahmoud and I left England, fully intending to return to Palestine for good. We took our time, stopping two weeks in Paris. Mahmoud--Marsh--wanted to talk with Iris.
...
We nearly made it. We were waiting at the docks in Marseille when Mycroft's telegram caught us up, and sent us to Morocco instead.
...
...So in February of this year, Mahmoud and I saddled a pair of fine horses and headed up into the Rif out of Tangier, to sell some guns.
But we know that between the end of December, when the Hazrs left England, and February, when they began to act on the instructions of the telegram, Mycroft was not at work and not sending telegrams! Peter James West, however...
If I have the timeline correct, I cannot see how killing Abd-el-Krim could have been Mycroft's plan.


Oh brilliant Lenore! Now I wonder if Mycroft's heart attack was from natural causes, or if West had a hand in his timely illness. If your theory is correct, then I imagine that Russell might sorely regret her choice to defy Mycroft when she let Goodman kill West. She's learning firsthand how far the ripples of her choice affects the world.
I know that Laurie has said in the past that she doesn't plan out books... but it seems her subconscious has been busy writing a big ol' Mycroft book (pun intended).
I know that Laurie has said in the past that she doesn't plan out books... but it seems her subconscious has been busy writing a big ol' Mycroft book (pun intended).
I've kind of been avoiding rereading GotH because it "wasn't my favorite"...but now I'm thinking I really ought to do a reread of the last few in succession. I feel like I've missed a bunch of stuff!

I enjoyed LANG and GOTH more the second time around too. I admit that the first time I read a new Mary Russell book, I'm more focused on getting to scenes with Holmes and Russell. Eh, what can I say... I love them together.
Did anyone else love Russell's bullfight with a motorcar?
Did anyone else love Russell's bullfight with a motorcar?

Setting aside (for the moment) Lenore's brilliant timeline analysis and assuming that it was Mycroft who sent them (he did return to work in "February" and that was when Ali and Mahmoud got the orders to go to Morocco), was this another sacrifice? Was Mycroft willing to sacrifice the loyalty of Ali and Mahmoud to get to where he wanted Britain to be in Morocco?
So many questions and this kind of complexity is something I love about these books. They really stand up to re-reading.

No, according to Ali (pp. 66-67), February was when, having arrived in Morocco from Tangier and obtained horses to ride and arms to sell, they started up into the Rif mountains. If after leaving England before Christmas they spent two weeks in Paris with Iris, they arrived in Marseille no later than mid-January. Even then, it was only a one-day train ride from Paris to Marseille. If you surf around the Internet a bit, you will learn that, in those days predating the universality of air travel, there was a LOT of ship traffic between Marseille and the Levant, so it is unlikely they spent more than a few days awaiting a ship before receiving the telegram. And it would have taken some time for the Hazrs to get to Tangier and obtain arms in sufficient quantities to sell. "Mycroft's" telegram had to have caught them in January, when he was still not at work.

We may have to wait many years to have all these complications sorted out by Laurie – if ever.
Given that it's possible the telegram really was from Mycroft, then what was his real aim and how far was he willing to go?
Lenore: props to your deductive skills on catching those dates! Though, I have to agree with Regan that I still wonder how far Mycroft would go to achieve his ends, whether or not he sent that particular telegram.
Regan wrote: "Given that it's possible the telegram really was from Mycroft, then what was his real aim and how far was he willing to go? "
It leads me to wonder how many undercover agents Mycroft has. We know Holmes had a list of something like five possible places he and Russell could have gone on that boat in BEEK, and presumably all of those places had operatives.
Obviously, if you are in a position of power, you don't want to lose any of your pieces, but I can't help thinking that losing two people probably wouldn't be that big a deal to Mycroft's organization. Especially if they gain something in the loss.
Regan wrote: "Given that it's possible the telegram really was from Mycroft, then what was his real aim and how far was he willing to go? "
It leads me to wonder how many undercover agents Mycroft has. We know Holmes had a list of something like five possible places he and Russell could have gone on that boat in BEEK, and presumably all of those places had operatives.
Obviously, if you are in a position of power, you don't want to lose any of your pieces, but I can't help thinking that losing two people probably wouldn't be that big a deal to Mycroft's organization. Especially if they gain something in the loss.