Who Came up with Person Man? discussion

So I'm sure you've heard this question before, but let's see if we can shed some new light on the debate. DC or Marvel? Why do you like either or both or neither of the two respective big guys in the comic book universe?

Just to get things going, I'll put a thought of my own up: A couple of years ago, when I decided to give the world of super hero comics another go, it seemed to me that DC was the more mature of the two companies. Marvel was flashier, but seemed more like it was oriented towards a younger audience. I read "Identity Crisis" which has some pretty serious subject matter at the heart of its story, and figured this was going to be the superhero world I would follow.

Thoughts on this? Agree or disagree, please.

Both universes have their good and bad points. DC's characters always seem more iconic to me while Marvel's are more accessible. I think Marvel has more of a coherent plan for their line than DC has at times when it comes to movies and merchandising. I think DC might be less afraid to take chances on new characters.

I read more DC these days because Marvel books not written by Dan Slott seem to be padded and dragged out as much as possible. Jonathan Hickman's Fantastic Four run is a prime example of this.

Additionally, one of the reasons I prefer DC to Marvel these days is that Marvel tends to over-expose a lot of their characters and do more crossovers. How many books does Wolverine need to be in every month?

Dan wrote: "Additionally, one of the reasons I prefer DC to Marvel these days is that Marvel tends to over-expose a lot of their characters and do more crossovers. How many books does Wolverine need to be in ..."

I agree. I was a big Deadpool fan back in 2002 or so and was really bummed when the series was cancelled at the time (even though Gail Simone sent it off with a great ending). I used to tell people about him all the time and a lot of people didn't know who he was. And now for the past couple of years he suddenly has like three or four titles going at a time. I haven't read any of them but the exposure makes me leery. At least one of the titles could be good, but leave it to the industries to milk a good thing for all its worth.

I'm right with you, Anthony. When I was in high school, I was all about Marvel. I still have emotional ties to some of those characters. Nightcrawler isn't just my favorite superhero, he's one of my favorite fictional characters, across all media.

But I'm finding myself increasingly drawn to the characters and, especially, storylines of the DCU. Compare Identity Crisis to Civil War: both trying to explore shades of grey, but DC was far more successful, because they made it about more than blockbuster battles. But let's not make this about Civil War.

Both companies can irritate and offend me (in and out of universe), though. But even there, I usually find that DC is the lesser of two evils.

I'm generally with Dan on this one: DC has the real icons, the archetypal heroes that seem to loom large in the psyche, but Marvel has a knack for making heroes 'real'...or at least more real than Supes, Bats and WW tend to seem.

I think I would have to say that I generally side with DC, but in a very limited way: I like what they do (or at least used to do) with their Elseworlds titles where they finally gave some lee-way to creators to actually do something interesting with these icons instead of just tow the party line of an editorial fiat. They also have the Vertigo line which, in its heyday at least, was another breeding ground for awesome. I love a lot of Marvel characters (Hawkeye, the Avengers, Daredevil, and Spiderman are all awesome), but when I look back to the stories and titles I remember it generally seems to be DC ones on the list.

Sadly the only place where I think Marvel truly outshines their rival is in the movie-making arena which is kind of sad I guess.

I don't know which of the two is the more heinous perpetrator of the cross-over event and re-booting of their in-story history: I haven't collected comics for about four years now and even when I stopped the number of re-boots and cross-over "events" was ridiculous.

Quite frankly I think I like it best when writers and artists 'rip-off' the classic heroes and make new stories where shit actually happens like Warren Ellis' 'Planetary' (with the best dark version of the FF I've ever seen, not to mention numerous other pulp and comic heroes reinvented), Alan Moore's 'Terra Obscura' and 'Watchmen' and other of that ilk.

Before my first long hiatus from comics after high school, Marvel was all I read on a regular basis. I had a subscription to Fantastic Four for something like six years and read a lot of Thor, Captain America, and Quasar.

When I finally came back to super hero comics from years of reading nothing but Preacher and various indies, most of the Marvel books had the "decompressed" feel that Bendis and JMS used. Not a fan. If I want a story that's going to take hours of reading for anything meaningful to happen, I'll read a novel.

Terry wrote: "Quite frankly I think I like it best when writers and artists 'rip-off' the classic heroes and make new stories where shit actually happens like Warren Ellis' 'Planetary' (with the best dark version of the FF I've ever seen, not to mention numerous other pulp and comic heroes reinvented), Alan Moore's 'Terra Obscura' and 'Watchmen' and other of that ilk. "

Me too. My favorite Superman stories in recent memory were The Sentry and Supreme Power, Volume 1: Contact.

Marvel has been far and away better at translating their comics to movies, with the exception of Nolan's Batman. I could speculate as to why that is, but Phase One was impressively ambitious.

Dan wrote: "My favorite Superman stories in recent memory were The Sentry and Supreme Power, Volume 1: Contact."

Yeah, I generally enjoyed Sentry and I've been meaning to pick up Supreme Power...it looked good whenever I leafed through it in the comic shop back in the day. :)

Sesana wrote: "Marvel has been far and away better at translating their comics to movies, with the exception of Nolan's Batman. I could speculate as to why that is, but Phase One was impressively ambitious."

I think Marvel knows that the movies make way more than the comics and are acting accordingly. They've begun aligning the comics more with the movies, like making Tony Stark more like his movie counterpart, and by replacing Nick Fury with his son that happens to look like Samuel L. Jackson in the main Marvel universe.

Dan wrote: "...and by replacing Nick Fury with his son that happens to look like Samuel L. Jackson in the main Marvel universe."

Wow, they did that?! I thought the Sam Jackson Fury was solely the Ultimate-verse.

Terry wrote: "Wow, they did that?! I thought the Sam Jackson Fury was solely the Ultimate-verse. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_J...

I think the cartoons and action figures probably bring in more new readers than the movies.

I'm not sure I have a preference. I'm a huge Batman fan as the character makes up a good chunk of the comics I read.

However, while I haven't read a lot of Marvel stuff outside of a few Spider-Man and Daredevil books, I find their characters are generally more colorful and accessible (as Dan said).

I've always been much more of a Marvel fan than DC going back to when I was a kid. DC always seemed a bit more cartoony to me, and I liked that Marvel heroes lived in real cities and had problems you could relate to. (Peter Parker was short of cash. The Fantastic Four squabbled among themselves. The X-Men struggled against bigots. Etc. etc.)

Another reason I prefer DC over Marvel, I liked the more grounded heroes like Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, etc. over the cosmic/alien, magic or godlike mythology types. Since DC seems to rely more on guys like Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, etc. So I gravitated more towards Marvel while usually ignoring their characters like Thor or Dr. Strange.

That probably explains why Batman is the only DC hero that I've seriously followed.

Kemper wrote: "That probably explains why Batman is the only DC hero that I've seriously followed. "

You have read the entire run of Starman. Actually, Starman feels more like a Marvel book than a DC one. Jack Knight is way more relatable to the comic reading public than most DC heroes.

Dan wrote: "You have read the entire run of Starman. Actually, Starman feels more like a Marvel book than a DC one. Jack Knight is way more relatable to the comic reading public than most DC heroes.

Yeah, but I didn't read Starman until recently. For some reason I've been more accepting of the weirder stuff as I've gotten older. Like I didn't read Sandman until about five or six years ago.

The stuff with Jack being a reluctant superhero definately seemed like Marvel, but when he went into space, it felt more DC at that point.

DC has Batman!
Marvel has Moonknight but has Deadpool!

So for me it's a toss up

Terry wrote: "I'm generally with Dan on this one: DC has the real icons, the archetypal heroes that seem to loom large in the psyche, but Marvel has a knack for making heroes 'real'...or at least more real than ..."

I love what Garth Ennis does with the Boys in this regard. He captured all the "yeah right" factors of the superhero mythos universe. Plus the series, in my opinion, has more relevant things to say about society than any other title I am reading right now. Shows exactly what you can do with superheroes as metaphorical figures if you allow factors besides revenue drive the story.

Dan wrote: "Before my first long hiatus from comics after high school, Marvel was all I read on a regular basis. I had a subscription to Fantastic Four for something like six years and read a lot of Thor, Cap..."

Yeah I gave up on comics all together until I read Watchmen. It was a gamechanger for me. I remember thinking, "you can do this with comics?"

I am much more drawn to the indie titles, but I got back into superhero comics when a friend forced Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, and 52 on me. I was surprised at how adult-themed the comics were when all this time I was thinking men and women in tights with silly names was for kids.

Kemper wrote: "I've always been much more of a Marvel fan than DC going back to when I was a kid. DC always seemed a bit more cartoony to me, and I liked that Marvel heroes lived in real cities and had problems ..."

I wanted to be Spiderman when I was a kid, so maybe that is why Marvel has a more adolescent association in my mind. I also like DC because the stories seem a lot darker in tone. But there wasn't anything for kids going on in Civil War now that I think about it. It's interesting because I wonder if comics are trying to distance themselves from a children's market.

I confess, apart from a couple of Punisher graphic novels (King Pin by Jason Aaron, Welcome to the Bayou by Victor Gischler) I haven’t read much Marvel in adulthood. Megan Abbott (author of Dare Me) has written a comic ‘Untold Tales of Punisher MAX #3’ which has a distinct emphasis on noir which is waiting at my local comic book shop for me. Hmmm, might have to blog about Punisher and ties to modern noir/pulp authors. Duane Swierczynski also wrote a Punisher graphic novel…check out my blog for more on this in the coming weeks… http://justaguythatlikes2read.blogspo...


Sorry I digress….

As a younger reader I didn’t mind the DC superheros and recall having a few Flash and Green Lantern comics but Marvel did it for me. I was into the Avengers in a big way with West Coast Avengers and Avengers Spotlight Hawkeye being my favourite comics to read. I had hundreds of these comics and having watched the recent Avengers movie adaptation, I now have a desire to revisit some of those old favourites.

Marvel – just felt like they had (have) the more interesting characters.

short answer: DC.

i wasn't really into comics as a kid. i had maybe a half dozen that i just read and reread when the mood struck. one of them was New Teen Titans #1, which i sincerely regret giving away, sigh. i didn't really get into comics until college, when my roommate's boyfriend decided that since he was becoming a doctor, it was time to give up comics. so we were given boxes and boxes and boxes of them, and so a love affair was born. the first comic i really got into was the DC reboot of Captain Atom, which is now vaguely embarrassing to recount.

very happy to see Terry mention Ellis' Evil Fantastic 4! ah, Planetary. genius!

mark wrote: "the first comic i really got into was the DC reboot of Captain Atom, which is now vaguely embarrassing to recount."

That was the second comic I had a subscription to. The first was the Justice League of America.

Dan wrote: "mark wrote: "the first comic i really got into was the DC reboot of Captain Atom, which is now vaguely embarrassing to recount."

That was the second comic I had a subscription to. The first was t..."

First for me was Spiderman and Thor. I got into Dead pool a lot in middle school. I tried subscribing to Fantastic Four and Wolverine but at the time couldn't really get into them.

I think Marvel comics from the sixties have aged a lot better than their DC contemporaries. I'd rather read a Silver Age issue of Fantastic Four or Spider-Man than Justice League or Superman any day.

Dan wrote: "I think Marvel comics from the sixties have aged a lot better than their DC contemporaries. I'd rather read a Silver Age issue of Fantastic Four or Spder- Lr Superman any day."

I have never read a superhero comic from the Silver Age. I only ever see the DC reprints in those big black and white collections.

When I was a kid, Marvel had these paperback books in which they had reprinted the first Silver Age issues. I had three of the Spider-Man ones and the first Fantastic Four.

Thinking back on it now, the panels had to be pretty small since it was a comic page reduced to a paperback size, but I read those things over and over. I think they're another reason I'm more Marvel oriented than DC.

Marvel started putting out their Essential line when I was in high school. I just ate those things up. Cheap print, no color, big as phone books, and the most fantastic things I owned.

@Kemper - I have the Hulk and Captain America books like that.

The Marvel Essentials line is pretty cool. I've got a Fantastic Four, and Avengers, Marvel Team-Up and two or three of the Spider-Man ones. DC's Showcase line is about the same. The only one of those I own that I recommend is Showcase Presents: Doom Patrol, Vol. 1.

I was thinking today while I was out driving around is that Marvel definitely has the better villains. A lot of DC's villains don't really pose a believable threat to the heroes they're pitted against.

Dan wrote: "I was thinking today while I was out driving around is that Marvel definitely has the better villains. A lot of DC's villains don't really pose a believable threat to the heroes they're pitted aga..."

Well Batman has some real winners as villains, I think. But yeah, I think you have a point there over-all. It's the completely dull factor with Superman comics.

I have been enjoying a lot of DC titles lately, but I grew up with the Marvel family of heroes and villains and if I had to pick one company over the other it would definitely be Marvel. Daredevil, the Punisher, and Spider-Man all feel grounded in the real world of New York City in a way that no DC characters feel grounded.

I can't decide which one I like better, and it's for all of the reasons that you guys have already stated. I've noticed myself gravitating toward DC more lately, but it may just be curiosity over the re-boot.
I didn't start actively reading comic books until about 5 or 6 years ago, so I don't have any childhood associations with either title (unless you count cartoons). I accidentally stumbled on to them while trying to find something that would get my oldest son interested in reading. Speaking of, Marvel is much more kid-friendly as far as it's website goes. They have an easier (for parents to use) rating system, so you don't accidentally end up with something crazy. They also have more regular titles that younger kids can read. DC's website is getting better, though.

That's a great point, Anne, and one I wouldn't have thought about a few years back. I have a niece who's six. When/if she shows an interest in reading comics like Auntie does, I'll almost certainly be giving her Marvel over DC.

Sesana wrote: "That's a great point, Anne, and one I wouldn't have thought about a few years back. I have a niece who's six. When/if she shows an interest in reading comics like Auntie does, I'll almost certainly..."

I've given my nephew a couple of the Showcase editions of Batman from the '50s. The goofy stories from that era are great for young kids.

Kemper wrote: "I've given my nephew a couple of the Showcase editions of Batman from the '50s. The goofy stories from that era are great for young kids. "

I've read two of the Showcase World's Finest comics and they are hilarious. Superman and Batman spend a lot of time lying to Lois Lane and acting like Archie and Jughead.

Anne wrote: "I can't decide which one I like better, and it's for all of the reasons that you guys have already stated. I've noticed myself gravitating toward DC more lately, but it may just be curiosity over t..."

I was wondering about this myself. I have seen some pretty violent and adult-themed occurrences in the DC comics I have read in the past several years. Iwonder if DC is trying to distance itself away from the younger market. So people will think they are more serious, I guess?

Anthony wrote: "Anne wrote: "I can't decide which one I like better, and it's for all of the reasons that you guys have already stated. I've noticed myself gravitating toward DC more lately, but it may just be cur..."


DC does have a separate line for kid oriented comics. I guess the regular comics reader age skews older and needs more mature stories

Yeah, both have lines just for kids, but Marvel used to have more. Not sure if that's the case anymore or not. I'm not a terribly picky parent, and I'll let both of my boys (9 & 12) read anything that doesn't have a Parental Advisory sticker on it. They usually prefer the T or T+ stuff to the kid-friendly comics anyway. What a surprise.
I don't care, 'cause at least they're reading. I do have my limits. Sex (in your face stuff), and super-graphic gore are off the table.

I hope Anthony isn't right about DC trying to distance itself from the kids. Right now, I think their comics are hotter than Marvel's, even though Marvel is leading in the box office.

I think it depends on the writer. Warren Ellis wrote the excellent "Iron Man Extremis" but having tried to read other Iron Man books by unknown writers, it's not the same and more often than not I end up putting the book down.

Same goes for DC - Batman can be superb with the right writer but because there are so many Batman series, you get a lot of pap because you get a lot of average and less talented writers churning out Batman stories.

So I'm not DC or Marvel one way or the other, a good book is undeniable, whoever puts it out, and quite often it depends upon the writer/artist rather than the character or setting.

Anne wrote: "Right now, I think their comics are hotter than Marvel's, even though Marvel is leading in the box office."

Totally agree with Anne. Marvel's films are awesome but their comics are lame and lamer. Their reboot of Hulk was dull, the Wolverine books (which keep coming thick and fast) feel weaker and weaker as they get more watered down, the X-Men Vs Avengers is the only event I'm looking forward to but I've heard from others it's a bit desperate of Marvel to force this even and feels a bit pointless. Plus that Fear Itself storyline was rubbish.

Compared to that, DC's New 52 has introduced a host of unknown or lesser known characters to a wider audience and feels fresh and interesting. DC are definitely leading Marvel in the comics field - and hey, Dark Knight Rises did well too!

Dan wrote: "I've read two of the Showcase World's Finest comics and they are hilarious. Superman and Batman spend a lot of time lying to Lois Lane and acting like Archie and Jughead."

I'm reading a reprint of Marvel's "Avengers: The Korvac Saga" from the late 70s and it's hilarious! All the characters talk like staten island dandies, the Avengers act like a family, there are thought bubbles everywhere, exposition after exposition followed by... lots... of... dots... and cheesy action. Really funny stuff, no wonder people had a low opinion of superhero comics!

Sam wrote: "I think it depends on the writer. Warren Ellis wrote the excellent "Iron Man Extremis" but having tried to read other Iron Man books by unknown writers, it's not the same and more often than not I ..."

Matt Fraction, who I believe has been writing Iron Man since Ellis left, is one of the better-known writers among current comics fans. I actually really liked what he was doing with the title, but I was never crazy about the art, and I also just sort of lost interest in the series for whatever reason and haven't read it in about a year.

I totally agree about the number of Batman titles. I think DC looks at Batman as a license to print money, because no matter how many titles they put out, SOMEONE will buy them. I think currently there are (in addition to the old workhorses Batman and Detective comics) Batman: The Dark Knight, Batman & Robin, Legends of the Dark Knight, and Batman Incorporated, but there are all the associated titles, too (Nightwing, Talon, Birds of Prey, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Batwoman, Catwoman, Batgirl, Batwing).

Currently, everyone who likes Batman should check out Scott Snyder's current work on "Batman" and his past work on "Detective Comics." I am also really enjoying Grant Morrison's work on "Batman Incorporated," although there have only been three issues so far. "Batwoman" is also a fantastic title, and Batman almost never shows up. Unless you've got a lot of time on your hands, I recommend skipping the rest.

You guys are right, everything pretty much hinges on who's writing it. The artist, as well, to an extent. Although, if the story is great, I'll plow through bad art. At the same time, I'm less likely to keep up with something just because the art is fantastic.
Bendis was holding Marvel together for a while (my opinion), but it seems like things are slipping. Or at least I'm not actively seeking out Marvel titles anymore.

@Adam: I think Catwoman, Batgirl, and Batwing are all worth checking out over some of the other Batman titles (Tony Daniel's current run on Detective Comics is pretty dire). Not read Nightwing but I've preordered it so I'll have read it this time next week - hopefully it's awesome.

@Anne: I don't think there's a single Marvel title I'm interested in following at the moment - you?

Can't think of a single one, Sam. I used to follow Avengers, but...

Isn't Gail Simone writing Batgirl now? I loved her run on Wonder Woman, which makes me think Aquaman (maybe Superman) is the only title I want to read more than that one right now.

I'm excited about Matt Fraction doing two Fantastic Four books as part of Marvel NOW! and Dan Slott's doing good work on Spider-Man. Other than that, I'm not overly interested in the goings-on at Marvel.

@Anne - Yup, Gail Simone is writing Batgirl, pretty good too. Still feel that it should've been Stephanie Brown not Barbara Gordon in that role though.

@Dan - Forgot about this upcoming relaunch, Marvel NOW! I'll check them out once the titles start appearing.