#AutumnalCity discussion

Discussion of pages 401-500

I think this might be a good point to pause and reflect on Delany's attitude towards pornography in fiction (he's a fan), and its use here in Dhalgren.

Is the sex in Dhalgren dated? Does it exist solely as a political statement in a world that was much less accepting of certain aspects of sexual freedom? Or is it more universal than that, not rooted to any time or place (much like Bellona itself)? Is it simply there to get the reader's rocks off?

I haven't read Delany's autobiography, but from what I've read about this period in his life, these scenes are pretty naturalistic and perhaps even drawn from life. It's definitely less stilted than other, more popular porn from the time (think Penthouse Letters). It's good to see porn from a man that couldn't write a boring sentence if he tried. I've never read that book in Tak's room, the potboiler that Delany later wrote an introduction for, but I imagine that would be an interesting comparison.

Frantically and horribly busy with work, but will throw in quick comment to keep it alive!

I read this in the 70s, a fervent feminist but still basking in the afterglow of the 60s. I missed the 60s but allegedly there was a lot of free love somewhere!

It was probably a more comfortable read then than now. Denny is under age and vulnerable. But he is portrayed as fully consenting - does this make it ok? After all Lanya is a 'nice girl', she wouldn't let anything bad happen.

At least it is grubby, realistic sex, where people's arms get in the way and sometimes things don't work so well. Unlike today's bright, plastic, shaven porn.

For me, the gang bang of the woman whose name I've forgotten (which tells you something) was more disturbing than the happy little threesome in the attic. Delany makes it clear she was an willing, indeed voracious, participant, but even in the 70s my feminist sensibilities weren't absolutely happy with it. However, as a portrayal of an utterly loveless but intense experience, it is quite valid.

I do remember reading Tides of Lust soon after and being more disturbed by that. It was a long while ago, but that seemed like a book designed to let him write about sex, whereas in Dhalgren it was something that grew spontaneously out of that strange world.

I took a little vacation from Bellona, a trip to The House On The Strand, but I'm back now. I wanted to comment on the passages about sex with Denny, Kid and Denny's girl, then with Lanya, but hadn't read them before my little vacation. At 15, we consider Denny under age, but all our societal rules are suspended in Bellona. Denny is definitely consenting here and he seems more mature than a lot of the other Scorpions. He has his own space. He's pretty much on his own and makes his own choices. Recently I've been working on digitizing a genealogy chart my Great Grandfather made in 1967. It goes back into the 1600's with birth a death dates, sometimes marriage dates. Sometimes the girls were married at 13, which I knew, but in the context of reading Dhalgren, it made me realize, the mores we have now about age of consent, statutory rape, etc., aren't very old. Since we've had them all our lives, it's hard to imagine only a few generations ago, they weren't really valid. I think this is what Delany, in part, is getting at. In Bellona, the societal mores and traditions we see as essential are gone. And in there place, something else comes into being. It's something we aren't comfortable with, but many of the people in Bellona are. Those who aren't live in their own little bubbles, like the Richards family, but June shows us the bubble isn't much protection, if someone in the family likes the rules outside the bubble. I think this is one of the points Delany is making. He's comfortable with the rules in Bellona, or lack thereof, in our eyes. Yet he, as a black gay man, has to live within our ideas about morality a lot of the time. Our society imposes those ideals on all of us, even if we don't agree with them. The novel, Dhalgren, is a way of stripping away all those rules. He did the same with the rules about what a novel can be.

I read Tides of Lust a long time ago too. I don't really remember it or whether I was disturbed by it or not. I was definitely disturbed by Hogg. I wasn't disturbed at all by these scenes in Dhalgren the first time I read them because I wasn't much older than Denny at the time. I think I was 16 or 17. I haven't gotten to the gangbang scene yet. I remember when I was in college at 18, just a year or two after I read Dhalgren, there was a gangbang in the bathroom of one of the frat houses during a party. I probably could have joined in had I wanted to, but, despite having read Dhalgren, I was still pretty naive and not wasn't interested in doing so. As far as I know, the girl was consenting in this case too. At the time, probably because I'd read Dhalgren, I didn't really think much about it. I remember talking to her the next day and she seemed OK, at least emotionally. Today, with AIDS, HIV and a whole different set of mores going on, I can't even imagine having this be part of a normal day, though I know it probably goes on somewhere. Maybe that's the difference between being in college and middle age.

Aha, came to this post after your other, and now know all about the gb. in a bathroom? Is that a UK bathroom (which would be uncomfortable enough) or a US bathroom which is basically a loo/oilet/khazi/bog?? The latter is a grim idea.

Yes, the rules are all gone in Bellona, however hard Mrs Richards tries to keep it out, she hasn't a chance. Each of her children is embroiled in sex,death or gang. If you can be embroiled in death... that clunking door on the empty shaft haunted me for years.

That was an incredible scene. I remember how shocked I was when I read it. And then Kid going down into the shaft to bring his body back up.It was incredibly brutal for an SF novel of that time. It haunted me for a long time too.

Wow, all those words for bathroom I'm completely unfamiliar with (except loo, of course), so I'm not sure what any of them may be bringing to mind for you. I've also never been to the UK, so I'm not sure what a bathroom in the UK is like. We're talking frat house bathroom here, though. That means it's built to accommodate a lot of people, so it's good sized, though probably dirty. But let's face it, no matter where a gangbang is going to happen, it's probably going to be pretty grim with drunk strangers involved.