Victorians! discussion

Discuss this section of the reading. Spoilers for this section only.

Ok, I read this a bit earlier in the month, so I will be very careful about spoilers- I took 7 pages of notes so I'll just type what I thought. I do want to say, however, that I LOVED this book, so I'm very excited to begin discussing it. If you weren’t thrilled with the Aspern Papers then I hope that you still read this.

1) I was really hoping that someone could explain to me the Victorian tradition of telling ghost stories on Christmas Eve? I've come across this in several books, and given our modern celebrations of Halloween/Christmas it seems odd to me.

2) It seems that we have another NN, or Nameless Narrator, here and that James will be using the similar mechanic of an unreliable narrator

Chapter 1
The NN seems to be entranced by the beauty of the manor, but fancies that she hears light footsteps outside of her door and heard a child crying?

Chapter 2
Miles is expelled from school, and I feel like Ms. Grose is hiding something about his character. She never answers any of the NN’s questions candidly; she was very ambiguous about the death of the other Governess.

Chapter 3
NN enjoys her new ability to be outside, rather than packed in London. I thought her musings about trying to capture the master’s eye by showing how excellent she is at her job were very illuminating. That don’t make any sense, there is no real way for her to demonstrate her capability considering he wants no contact, so how is he supposed to find out? It is disjointed thinking. How did you feel about her descriptions of the man on the roof staring at her? I thought that they were strange, he was so far away how could she possibly feel that his gaze was piercing and over familiar?

Chapter 4
I don’t understand why the narrator doesn’t just ask Grose who the man was. She is constantly dwelling on it, which I find strange in itself. She is always thinking about the strange man, etc, allowing herself to become disturbed about it in a very Victorian sense of –nerves-.

I also have a very bad feeling about the way that NN talks about the children. I don’t know if she is just doting or obsessive? She is constantly talking about them in phrases like “they could’ve known no punishment or evil” and “that they are perfect little cherubs.” I mean, I think people generally talk about children as innocent and adorable, but she really seems to become emotionally and enthusiastically involved in their innocence- and that sets off same crazy bells to me.

Ooo and we have our first real ghost-y interaction. The unknown man was staring through the window but immediately disappeared when she went out to find him!

Becky wrote: "...I do want to say, however, that I LOVED this book, so I'm very excited to begin discussing it. If you weren’t thrilled with the Aspern Papers then I hope that you still read this...."

Becky, sorry that you apparently did not "like" The Aspern Papers? Having recently struggled for several months, reading and re-reading The Wings of the Dove , I found TAP so insightful and even delightful -- not for the actions of the characters, but for their apparent or possible motives and how those interacted. It was also fun to conjecture why James himself apparently favored that tale among his short stories, even though The Turn of the Screw seems to have been far more popular.

Now, the last time I tried The Turn of the Screw , I set it aside without completion. Today is perhaps 35 years later and we shall see how I shall fare. Thanks for your enthusiastic encouragement! (Maybe I am finally mature enough in my reading to handle James; I did like The Bostonians and especially The Portrait of a Lady , all within the past two years. Perhaps I'll even tackle at least one of the other two late novels in 2013, along with Washington Square , which sits on my short stack TBR.)

I liked the Aspern Papers, but it didn't engross me. I felt hooked to this story within the first few pages, but maybe thats just me- To each their own :D

Becky wrote: "I liked the Aspern Papers, but it didn't engross me. ..."

I rather suspect without Wings of the Dove, I would have been immune to TAP, unless perhaps the Shelley connection and James reticence about his own personal history had happened to intrigue.

As we go along, hope you'll be willing and able to share what or why TToTS has been "right" for you.

Becky wrote: "I liked the Aspern Papers, but it didn't engross me. I felt hooked to this story within the first few pages, but maybe thats just me- To each their own :D"

Your experience pretty much matches mine. The Aspern Papers was okay, but didn't really draw me in. TotS has already done that -- I'm hooked!

Becky wrote: "1) I was really hoping that someone could explain to me the Victorian tradition of telling ghost stories on Christmas Eve? I've come across this in several books, and given our modern celebrations of Halloween/Christmas it seems odd to me."

That struck me, too. I have a lightly annotated edition (the Barnes and Noble), and it does have an endnote for that comment, but all it says it "Telling ghost stories on Christmas Even was a traditional pastime." As it happens, I've never run across it in any Victorian novel before (or if I have, I don't remember doing so). But it did remind me that Dickens's Christmas Carol is very much a ghost story, so maybe that was written in the same tradition.

But I did recently run across a post about the BBC reissuing a series of Ghost Stories for Christmas, and looked it up: here is the English Amazon listing for it:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ghost-Stories...

and the description reads:
GHOST STORIES FOR CHRISTMAS

Various Directors

As a Christmas treat in the late 1960s and 70s, the BBC produced adaptations of ghost stories based in the works of MR James, the Cambridge academic and author of some of the most spine-tingling tales in the English language, which were broadcast to terrified viewers in the dead of winter. This was a tradition that was briefly revived by the BBC between 2007 and 2010.

These adaptations, which have a subtlety and style all of their own, have been a major influence on many contemporary British horror filmmakers and have come to be some of the most sought after British TV titles of all time by their legions of eager fans.

This superb box set brings together all 12 of these celebrated films: Whistle and I'll Come to You (1968); The Stalls of Barchester (1971); A Warning to the Curious (1972); Lost Hearts (1973); The Treasure of Abbot Thomas (1974); The Ash Tree (1975); The Signalman (1976); Stigma (1977); The Ice House (1978); A View from a Hill (2005); Number 13 (2006); and Whistle and I'll Come to You (2010)

So I guess this really was a tradition at one time!

Here's a nice story about the Ghost Story at Christmas tradition.

Loved this quote in particular (Jerome K. Jerome is probably best known today as the author of Three Men in a Boat (Not to Mention the Dog), which is actually on the poll for our November read!

“Whenever five or six English-speaking people meet round a fire on Christmas Eve, they start telling each other ghost stories,” wrote British humorist Jerome K. Jerome as part of his introduction to an anthology of Christmas ghost stories titled “Told After Supper“ in 1891.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/70...

I have read these first four chapters and found them charming, but I understand why they irritated my technically trained mind 35 years ago. Ghosts and strange sounds didn't compute.

Thanks for the article Everyman. I was aware of the other Xmas traditions having pagan roots, but I never really though about Sol Invictus. I wonder at what point/why we chose to move the scary stuff to Halloween. Was it part of a commercial venture to create another holiday? Was it an American thing?


I feel the research bug coming on!

Before I started reading this a friend remarked to me that she had read this in class. She told me there was a great question about this book, which I will mark in spoilers here: (view spoiler)[ is the place really haunted or is the governess insane? (hide spoiler)]-- I dont really feel that that ruins the book but it certainly influenced my reading of it, because I felt like I looked for more clues. I didnt know if that was something that should gointo background materials, or here, because I dont know if its possible to talk about the book without discussing the question.
^I hope any of that made sense. Like I said, we are in the process of moving/selling/and buying a house so I'm a TOTAL scatterbrain right now.

Becky wrote: "2) It seems that we have another NN, or Nameless Narrator, here and that James will be using the similar mechanic of an unreliable narrator"

Great point. I hadn't noticed the NN, since she didn't show up until after the introduction (where we also have a NN, though he isn't that important to the story, at least as far as we know).

But while we're asking about unreliable narrators, we may also have to ask whether Douglas, who either reads or tells partly reads and partly tells the story, is telling it reliably.

Layer upon layer.

Now that is interesting, I hadn't even really considered the person reading the story and the influences he may/maynot have on its telling. I'll have to keep that in mind.

Everyman wrote: "Becky wrote: "1) I was really hoping that someone could explain to me the Victorian tradition of telling ghost stories on Christmas Eve? I've come across this in several books, and given our modern..."

I've also come across this tradition in various books, so I guess I've just accepted it without questioning, but it is interesting to wonder how it came about.

Becky wrote: "Before I started reading this a friend remarked to me that she had read this in class. She told me there was a great question about this book, which I will mark in spoilers here: [spoilers removed]..."

What you bring up in your spoiler is probably one of the great themes of this story. I'll leave it up to others to give their opinion, but I think it is definitely a valid topic of discussion throughout the entire story.

Everyman wrote: "Becky wrote: "2) It seems that we have another NN, or Nameless Narrator, here and that James will be using the similar mechanic of an unreliable narrator"

Great point. I hadn't noticed the NN, si..."

I remember talking about the double narration technique in Wuthering Heights and The Tenant of Wildfell Hall, but here we essentially have a triple narration! Interesting! I have to admit, though, that once the governess' narration began I kind of forgot all about the others and just considered it to be her own story.

Oh my gosh, I totally forgot that we had a triple narration! Like Denise said, "once the governess' narration began I kind of forgot all about the others..."
That's really interesting. Very unique. I like that.

May we have a background or research thread, especially since Becky has said elsewhere she has been doing some digging on this story. Even if she hasn't agreed with all she has found, my guess is there are some sites she might find worthy of calling to our attention.

I look forward to seeing how the "nested" narrators end up being "un-nested".... Thx for making this technique front and center; for some reason, I started directly with Section 1 on my ebook, so had to re-establish the setting.

Lily wrote: "May we have a background or research thread, especially since Becky has said elsewhere she has been doing some digging on this story. Even if she hasn't agreed with all she has found, my guess is ..."

That's a good idea - I was wondering when and where it would be appropriate to bring up the Deborah Kerr adaptation movie 'The Innocents'.

Everyman wrote: "Here's a nice story about the Ghost Story at Christmas tradition.

Loved this quote in particular (Jerome K. Jerome is probably best known today as the author of Three Men in a Boat (Not to Mention..."

Thanks Everyman for posting this. Very interesting, and something I never realized.

Denise wrote: "Becky wrote: "Before I started reading this a friend remarked to me that she had read this in class. She told me there was a great question about this book, which I will mark in spoilers here: [spo..."

Agreed!

I wish I was experiencing the same things that most of you mentioned. I've been having a hard time concentrating in general, and James is such work for me, that I keep having to reread everything. Even then I'm not sure what I'm grasping and what I am missing.

I'm enjoying the story, but slogging through it is a better term for what I'm experiencing. Not sure if it's James or me or a combo of both. I love ghost stories so I've enjoyed the bump in the night atmosphere. Here's looking forward to having a lot more make sense for me.

Thanks you guys for posting about the multiple narrators because I missed that too once the governess started narrating.