SA Book & Challenge Lovers discussion

Starting 17 October 2012, Barbara, Varla Fiona and I will be reading Contact by Carl Sagan. Anyone who's keen to join in is welcome - the more the merrier!

Should be able to start with this one tomorrow :)

Looking forwad to this, but I have a few questions before we start.
Not that it matters, but weren't we supposed to start the 18th?
We're reading what we like. I mean no schedule?
Can you manage this with the Life of Pi or would you rather wait?

I checked the Reading Partners thread, and I noted on there that we'll start on the 17th, although I don't know when that was decided...

I'm fine with either day though. And I often read two books at once, so it's no problem. Life of Pi is an easy read anyway.

O then it's my mistake. I had the 18th firmly in my mind, but maybe that is when we started Cry to Heaven. Who cares. Today it is!
Just wanted to make sure you were ok with reading the two books at once. I don't know if you were also reading something else too.
I will finish my zombie book this morning. It is a very easy read and I am laughing my head off at times. When that is done I will start reading Contact later this afternoon.

Ok cool. I'll only get to it this afternoon as well. I barely used the computer yesterday because we had 3 power failures and I eventually just gave up and went to unpack.

I will start later today. Just want to finish another book first.

I'm 12% in, somewhere in Chapter 3

Mixed feelings so far. I like Ellie's story, and I have no problem with the narrative style (reporter style, almost no dialogue, moves the plot along very quickly).

The science is rather dry though. I think I get at least some of it, and I have the gist, but it's pretty boring to read.

I recently read Existence by David Brin, which came out this year and seems to have built on novels like Contact. It also has a lot of science, although in a more interesting narrative structure. For example, there are a series of interesting blog posts that consider the possible reasons why we haven't made contact yet, and what could happen if we do. The cast of characters is massive, and the story is global, whereas Contact looks like it's restricted to the USA (or more specifically, American characters).

I have only read chapter 1 yesterday.

So far I feel the same. The science isn't that hard yet since we only discussed pi. Bit annoyed with the stepfather about his ideas about women but I don't think that will be a problem for long. :)

I wonder if the difficulty and/or the style is what Emma found annoying.

If I remember her review correctly, she disliked both, as well as the criticism of religion. There hasn't been that much of the latter yet though.

Well there was some when Ellie went to Bible class. But I think she raised some good points. But Emma is quite religious and I can see how she could be offended by it. Maybe there is more to come?

2 chapters down. I like the story and it flows nicely but I agree the science is not well written. I understand it, but it is boring! I may be a zoologist, but still find most fields of science are actually quite interesting, so it is not normal for me to consider science boring!

I am at the beginning of chapter 8. Which according to Goodreads is 29 %. And I have read Emma's review too.

It took me some time to get engaged but I finally am. The message is coming through, people are working together and who knows what is says. I mean I know, because the more I read the book the more I remember seeing the movie, but for the life of me I can't seem to remember how it goes and how it ends.

The science is not a problem for me. Granted sometimes I do a double take, but that is because I was doing more than one thing at a time. With other books that normally isn't a problem, but with this one when they start talking science you have to focus. I also don't think the science should have been left out as Emma seems to think. I am glad it is in the book and it does explain how the message is coming through and why it is such a big deal. I like it.

Reading Emma's review I get the feeling she doesn't really believe in ETI and she is very offended by some of the religious remarks made earlier in the book. I think the question were Cain got his wife a very good one, since that is one that has bothered me for a long time. Ever since I read the story of Cain and Abelactually.

Also I don't think that God and ETI are mutually exclusive. In fact I think if you believe in God you should also believe in ETI. I mean if there is a God who made all there is why would he made so many other galaxies and solar systems and planets? Did he need the practice? If so why leave them and why not destroy them when he didn't need them anymore, since it undermines his image, since he is supposed to be omnipotent. Maybe he gets bored and has a hobby? People make little ships in bottles and postcards and dreamcathcers, maybe God makes solar systems. I am not trying to be sacriligious or hurt anyone, but am seriously wondering about this. If there is a God who made all there is, I must believe in ET because why else is there so much out there.
And if you don't believe in God, but in science then you should also believe in ETI since simple statistics tells you there should be life out there.

Since no one has responded to my comments yet and I have finished the book I will post another message.

I'll say what I thought about the book and I will try to do this without spoilers. :)

I thought the book was great. I loved the discussions about the origin of men, religion, God, Science, aliens, are we alone. Everything. I can see how people can get offended but I personally wasn't. At times I wanted to crawl into the book and join the discussions.

I also loved the science. Other people have made a problem of the science but I think the book wouldn't have been as good if you took it out. I loved the explanations and it made me understand how special the message was. Also when the science wasn't explained or when they scientists were looking for an explanation it just made the story better and more amazing. It just pointed out the how little we actually know.

I would have loved to have given this book 5 stars if it weren't for a few minor things. Things like that it was hard to get into the story. I don't know if that was because of the way it was written or not.
Although I didn't mind the science, it did slow down reading and might have been a litle more simple without losing the integrity of the scientist.
There is a minor issue with the timeline that is bugging me.
And last the names used in the book were annoying. Some seemed a parody in themselves in this grand debate of science versus religion. And that were only the ones I picked up on, but maybe I am alone in this and no one else has noticed anything.

I think sometimes I forget that many people have unanswered questions, and whereas for me those questions are quite easily explainable for some they remain elusive. Where did Cain get his wife for example, simple?

Genesis 5:4 says: “And the days of Adam after his fathering Seth came to be eight hundred years. Meanwhile he became father to sons and daughters.” So Cain could have married one of his sisters or even one of his nieces. At that early stage of human history, when mankind was so close to perfection, such a marriage did not pose the risks for the children of the union that it would today.

If you believe in God should you also believe in ETI, is it arrogance on our part to think we are the only ones in this universe? According to the Bible, extraterrestrial life not only exists but exists in abundance. It is more complex, more interesting, and more believable than anything that evolutionists, science-fiction writers, and moviemakers have dreamed up. After all, what is an extraterrestrial? It is simply a being who originates outside this earth and its atmosphere. The Bible reveals that life on this earth is not the only life there is. There are spirit beings—God and the angels—that are vastly superior to man in intelligence and power. So yes I do believe in ETI Barbara, just not the little green men variety lol

The major motivation for SETI and or other scientists to spend billions in exploration of outer space is the desire to find some proof for the theory of evolution. American physicist Freeman J. Dyson has concluded that if advanced civilizations exist in our galaxy, finding evidence of them should be as easy as finding signs of technological civilization on Manhattan Island in New York City. The galaxy should be buzzing with alien signals and their immense engineering projects. But none have been found. In fact, one article on the subject noted that “searched, found nothing” has become like a religious chant for SETI astronomers. In fact, as the years pass and the silence from the stars continues, SETI is a growing embarrassment to scientists who believe in evolution. If various types of life evolve readily from nonlife, then why do we not hear from them in this vast universe? Where are they?

I am also interested in what is the purpose of our other planets? What will happen in the future, Whether there are other planets like the earth in other parts of the universe or not, or whether any of them ever will be inhabited in the future or not, we cannot say because the Bible does not say. But I am not shortsighted as to think that the Earth is the centre of our universe, we don’t really know what will happen to those planets in the future.

So in conclusion I don’t think my main problem with Contact wasn’t just the anti religion, I have no problem reading somewhat controversial books, I loved the Da Vinci code I found it fascinating but I approached the book from a fictional perspective, I don’t believe what the book says but that didn’t stop me from enjoying it nonetheless . I enjoyed it because Dan Brown is a fantastic writer and from page one I was captivated by this story. If Carl Sagan could have done something similar then I would have no problem with Contact, unfortunately he didn’t, and instead I was bored to tears.

Barbara wrote: "Since no one has responded to my comments yet and I have finished the book I will post another message.

I'll say what I thought about the book and I will try to do this without spoilers. :)"

Sorry Barbara! I didn't respond because you said you were at chapter 8, and I've only just finished chapter 4. But I've read both your comments now anyway as both are spoiler-free.

I'm glad things are finally happening and there's a bit of intrigue, but I'm struggling with the science. In general, I get the gist of what they're talking about, but the details leave me completely baffled. I haven't read much hard sf, but from what I have read, this seems to be one of the least friendly to non-scientists. On the one hand, I think it's fine to have books like this, that scientists might enjoy without feeling like they're being talked down to, but on a subjective level it's kind of boring for me to read. I wish Sagan would at least use some more metaphors to make the science easier to understand, but still interesting for those in the know.

On the plus side, I like the more philosophical/speculative stuff, although it's a bit sparse at the moment, since they're still in the discovery phase. I'm still a bit apprehensive about the book though, so your positive review is encouraging :)

@Emma: So Cain could have married one of his sisters or even one of his nieces. At that early stage of human history, when mankind was so close to perfection, such a marriage did not pose the risks for the children of the union that it would today.
I got the same explanation from my dad when I asked that question as kid. He also suggested an alternative - that Adam and Eve are metaphors for groups of people.

I look at the bible in the same way I look at other books though, so explanations like that don't really fly just because they're in ink. Does anyone state that people are more perfect at that time? And if so, why so much violence? Are we becoming increasingly imperfect?

The major motivation for SETI and or other scientists to spend billions in exploration of outer space is the desire to find some proof for the theory of evolution.
Huh, what? I thought it was mostly just sheer curiosity. Scientists already have proof for evolution. Or at least evolution is the best theory to fit the facts.

Just because we haven't found things, doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, any potential life on other planets isn't necessarily intelligent, advanced enough to send out signals (look how long it took for us to come into existence and reach this stage), or interested in doing so. There's also that theory that intelligent life might not want to contact us. We are a rather violent and xenophobic species. At any rate, the universe is infinite and ancient, and we've only been searching for a relatively short time.

we cannot say because the Bible does not say
Are there any biblical prophecies that have come true?

@Barbara: I mean if there is a God who made all there is why would he made so many other galaxies and solar systems and planets? Did he need the practice? If so why leave them and why not destroy them when he didn't need them anymore, since it undermines his image, since he is supposed to be omnipotent. Maybe he gets bored and has a hobby?
When considering the possibility of god(s), I often imagine creation as a kind of hobby or inclination. It's very satisfying to make stuff, from beaded jewellery to babies. And sometimes you get bored with the things you make and bugger off to do something else, which is what I imagine god(s) might have done too.

Lauren wrote: Sorry Barbara! I didn't respond because you said you were at chapter 8, and I've only just finished chapter 4. But I've read both your comments now anyway as both are spoiler-free.
Don't feel bad, I was just teasing. It is just that I had made some comments which I thought would some people urge to respond and no one did yet so I was just shaking everybody awake so to speak.

Emma wrote:So Cain could have married one of his sisters or even one of his nieces. At that early stage of human history, when mankind was so close to perfection, such a marriage did not pose the risks for the children of the union that it would today.
You imply that we are father from perfection than we were in the time of Adam and Eve. Were is that said and explained? Because if they all intermarried their brothers and sisters shouldn't we stay at the same stage? OK there would be people that would be father from perfection but also people closer to perfection. So it would even out. But that is if you believe in genes and dna. And how then did the different races in human came to be?

Emma wrote: The major motivation for SETI and or other scientists to spend billions in exploration of outer space is the desire to find some proof for the theory of evolution.
I checked this because I wanted to be sure before I disagreed with you, but the main reason Seti is looking for for ETI is because they "believe" in evolution. Not to prove it! They know evolution is a fact and because they know this they are sure there should be life on other planets. That is why they are looking: out of a knowledge that we are not alone and there looking for prove as scientists do when they believe something is true.

Emma wrote: The Bible reveals that life on this earth is not the only life there is. There are spirit beings—God and the angels—that are vastly superior to man in intelligence and power. So yes I do believe in ETI Barbara, just not the little green men variety lol
In my bible class (yes I went to bible class when I was little. Fortunately mine were during school hours and not on sunday) I was tought that the Kingdom of Heaven is right here on Earth. That would mean that God, the angels and even the devil are right here and not somewhere else. So that would mean that they are terrestrial intelligence and not extraterrestrial intelligence. And just to clear something up I do believe (know) in ET but I also don't believe in little green men. I think that is just the evidence of little imagination. I mean just because life here on Earth evolved a certain way that doesn't mean that it should be the same everywhere. Maybe there is a way for life to exist without oxygen and water, I don't know. Just because it doesn't happen here doesn't mean it can't happen somewhere else.

Emma wrote: In fact, as the years pass and the silence from the stars continues, SETI is a growing embarrassment to scientists who believe in evolution. If various types of life evolve readily from nonlife, then why do we not hear from them in this vast universe? Where are they?
Just because we haven't found anything yet, doesn't mean there isn't anything out there. There still isn't conclusive objective prove that there is a God and billions of people believe in a God. Granted they don't all believe in the same one, but the opinions about what ETI looks like differ also so... So there are groups out there that look for prove of God and there are groups out there that look for ETI.
Besides we haven't searched that much universe yet. It is incomrehensibly big out there. And saying at this point that there isn't something out there is like going to the beach fill a bucket with sand and go through it with just your hands and no microscope or other technology and upon finding no living organism in the sand saying there is no live on the beach and that there never was and never will be life.
Live could be out there in different forms than we expect. They could be transmitting something at us at the top of their voices and we just don't understand because we don't have the technology. Maybe they transmit only once every hundred years. Maybe they have already transmitted at a level of technology we understand, but it reached us a thousand years ago, when we weren't listening. Maybe something happened and they are now no longer there and they were dead before they could be transmitting something. Maybe they don't want to be heard. Maybe they are so ahead of us that they have already left the Milky Way. Maybe they are smarter then us and have never transmitted anything into other space. It is said in the book if we had cable television from day one Adolf Hitler would have never made it into outer space.

Emma wrote: If various types of life evolve readily from nonlife, then why do we not hear from them in this vast universe? Where are they?
I can ask you the same question. If God exists where is he? Why don't we hear from him? Why isn't he on the television or radio daily? Why isn't he broadcasting his voice out of the heavens so everybody can hear him at the same time?

Emma wrote: I don’t think my main problem with Contact wasn’t just the anti religion, I have no problem reading somewhat controversial books, I loved the Da Vinci code I found it fascinating
I can totally understand why You loved the DA Vince Code but not Contact. Contact expresses doubts about the existence of God and tries to find answers in a scientific way and leans towards the opinion that there isn't a God (at least not in the biblical sense). The Da Vinci Code never doubts the existence of God. It just poses interesting questions about Jesus' personal life and just talkes about what you could call minor details. To be able to do that God must exist. So whereas Contact disclaims God, The Da Vinci Code just affirms Him in a way.

Lauren wrote:When considering the possibility of god(s), I often imagine creation as a kind of hobby or inclination. It's very satisfying to make stuff, from beaded jewellery to babies. And sometimes you get bored with the things you make and bugger off to do something else, which is what I imagine god(s) might have done too.
It is one of the problems I have with conventional perceptions of deities. Why would a God create a world? Is it out of boredom, is it out of a need for worship, is it out of a need to create something for the satisfaction of creation. I like my Gods to be superior. Or at least have their emotions in check/under control. And I can't find a reason to create a world that isn't somehow emotional.

Does anyone state that people are more perfect at that time?

@Lauren Adam and Eve were created perfect—physically and mentally
Genesis 1:27 God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them
V 31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good

Deut 32:4 The Rock, perfect is his activity

When God said that his creation, including Adam and Eve, to be “very good,” what did it mean? For One whose activity is perfect to have said that what he made was “very good,” it must have measured up to his perfect standards.

Adam and Eve were created perfect, and had the ability to produce perfect offspring, and if they hadn’t sinned they would have never have died, as it was sin that led to their death. Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death. If they hadn’t have sinned they we today would not have inherited that sin from them. The Bible speaks about people living very long lives, Methuselah for example lived for 969 years and Scientists cannot explain why we die, for the body has the capacity to rejuvenate itself and for some reason it does not.

Are there any biblical prophecies that have come true?

Some 200 years before this event took place, the prophet Isaiah predicted in a detailed and accurate way the overthrow of Babylon by Medo-Persia. The prophecy disclosed that the conqueror would bear the name Cyrus, and it revealed the very strategy of drying up a moatlike river defense and entering a fortified city through open gates. All of this was accurately fulfilled. (Isaiah 44:27–45:2)

It was also correctly prophesied that Babylon would eventually be totally uninhabited.—Isaiah 13:17-22.
Predicted ca. 543 BC: Daniel tells of a great Grecian king who would conquer the Persian empire but would have his kingdom divided four ways after his death (Daniel 8).–Fulfilled in 330 BC when Alexander the Great defeats Persia and 281 BC after the Greek generals who succeed Alexander reach an agreement after years of war to split the kingdom four ways.

Predicted ca. 536 BC: Daniel prophesies that the Greek empire would not go to Alexander the Great’s heirs (Daniel 11).–Fulfilled ca. 323-281 BC after Alexander’s death when his generals fight over the kingdom while shutting out (and killing) his heirs.
I could name many many more but the information is out there for anyone who is interested.

@Barbara From the time that Adam and Eve disobeyed God..they began to die as God told them they would. We today are farther from perfection than Adam and Eve. Where do the different races come from? Acts 17:26: “[God] made out of one man [Adam] every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth.” (So, regardless of what races make up a nation, they all are offspring of Adam.)

If God exists where is he? Why don't we hear from him? Why isn't he on the television or radio daily? Why isn't he broadcasting his voice out of the heavens so everybody can hear him at the same time?
I guess that’s where you and I differ…I see the existence of God “His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s [mankind’s] creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [unbelievers] are inexcusable.” (Romans 1:20) I see evidence in creation and that that encompasses. For me it is unfathomable to attribute the creation to blind chance or merely a few gambles that paid off.

Even if many planets do exist that meet the stringent conditions necessary to sustain life as we know it, the question remains, How would life arise on those worlds? This brings us to the very foundation of the belief in beings on other worlds—evolution..which for me is not a proven fact, nor have SETI proven this theory..it is simply that a theory.

To many scientists, it seems logical to believe that if life could evolve from nonliving matter on this planet, that could be true on others as well. As one writer put it: “The general thinking among biologists is that life will begin whenever it is given an environment where it can begin.” But that is where evolution faces an insurmountable objection. Evolutionists cannot even explain how life began on this planet.

There is not any evidence to support the existence of ETI, yet all you have to do is look around you and see the existence of a creator, a designer. We do hear from God, we have the Bible which is Gods word given to Man. I guess its all a matter of opinion Barbara and you could argue til the cows come home, or in this case the Terrestrials ;-)

Very interesting discussion. I got distracted by other books so ask still at the 2 chapters down stage. This inspires me to return...

I am interested to find out what I think as I come from an interesting background. I consider myself a Christian and do believe in God. I even spent about 4 years in full time youth ministry, yet I am a scientist, specifically a zoologist (a field where evolution plays a large role). I do not find my faith in God presenting me from accepting that creatures evolved, I just feel that God was involved in the exercise. As a scientist, I am not afraid to ask difficult questions, which often made the people in my church uncomfortable. Due to this primarily, I am no longer part of any specific church. I know many people who question whether you can remain a Christian outside of church.

off to read now...

Oh yes, I am convinced there must be life out there... We are still discovering new types of life here on earth, so e could easily have missed something out there!

@ Emma: Before I respond to your comments, Emma, I just want to say that I am very much enjoying our discussion and I wish I could be in a room with you, sitting around a table with a computer (for internet access) and a Bible on it to talk face to face. So we could have this discussion much easier. If during this discussion I say something that hurts you, know that that is never my intention. I may disagree with you, but I admire your conviction and your faith.

I find it interesting that you can accept that Methusalah lived for 969 years for which the only proof is a story in an old book and have a problem with life starting in a non living environment for which there is scientific proof.

You say that scientists can't explain why we die, but I learned that we die because our cells no longer have the ability to divide themselves. This is because at the end of each chromosome is a bit called telomere. With every cell division a bit of this telomere with the crucial information on it is lost. When too much is lost the cell is no longer able to divide and will die. When too many cells in the human body die, we die.

You give some examples of biblical prophecies that have come true, but have they?
The bible as we know it today is not the same bible that was written originally or as it was known in the beginning of Christianity. Most if not all stories in the bible were written down after the fact. It is easy to say something was mentioned in a prophecy after the fact. It is something that in a trial would be dismissed. Furthermore their have been several synodes in which books have been added to and removed from the bible. So how is it still the word of God if men can add and remove books?
So could you give examples of prophecies in the bible that have come true lately?
And do we have the original texts of the prophecies so we can compare them to what happened?
Also I have read a lot of the prohecies done by Nostredamus. He has said some things that came true in uncanny ways. Other prohecies can be interpreted as many things and could have predicted many things. Is he a man of God? Or a lunatic? Is every man with visions a prophet and who gets to decide that?
A lot of economics and politicians predicted the econmic crisis the world is in right now. Are they prophets or just really good in observing and drawing conclusions with maybe a lucky guess here and there?

You say you see God everywhere around you. I say I see evolution everywhere around me. I see it in my fellow men, in the animals, in nature, in the Earth herself just as you see God in every living thing.
There are even people who have seen or experienced ETI. I believe in your review you called them UFO nuts. These people are convinced they have seen, talked to or even been abducted by aliens. Why is this so much harder to believe than stories about people who say they have talked to or seen angels or the virgin Mary or even God? I have to wonder why would you call the people who believe they encountered alien life nuts and people who believe they have encountered God saints?
Remember what UFO means. It stands for Unidentified Flying Object. This does not have to mean an alien spaceship. It might be an Archangel flying in the sky and the aliens people have claimed to have seen might just be naughty cherubs. It might be that what the people of the bible experienced as God in reality is an alien lifeform. There is no conclusive objective proof for either theory.

We may not know how life began but there are several theories about how life began. just as there are several theories about God. They are called Christianity, Islam, Judeism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca etc. etc. etc. The list is endless.
The most known theory about the origin of life is that it didn't begin in the blink of an eye as in the bible. It takes many many years where protein finds protein to form more complicated proteins and in the end a amino acid and then a gen and a chromosome. And then joining up with other parts to form a single celled organism and from that on to dinosaurs and man.

We could argue till the cows come home and we will never convince each other, but that isn't the point of the discussion. Not in my point of view. The discussion itself is the point of the discussion. To futher my knowledge in general and my understanding and knowledge of you in particular. As I said I admire you for your convictions and for standing up for them even if two people are disagreeing with you. But maybe surprise surprise I do not disagree with you about the existence of a God. I do believe there is a higher being out there, but I disagree with you about it being the biblical God. I also disagree with you about it being responsible for creating the world we live on and the universe our world is floating in. And I definitely disagree with you about the bible, but I love hearing you talk about it.

Barbara wrote: "@ Emma: Before I respond to your comments, Emma, I just want to say that I am very much enjoying our discussion and I wish I could be in a room with you, sitting around a table with a computer (for..."

I very much would like to continue our discussion Barbara, but I am always conscious of not hijacking any threads.We might be ok with this discussion but others might not, so It might be better to reply via e-mail?

No, I like it, keep discussing here. It is a small group of us doing this read along anyway!

I don't think Lauren minds and Varla Fiona has said she found the discussion very interesting. :)
I don't think we have hijacked the discussion since it is still related to the book. We haven't started talking about Scooby Doo or our favorite colours or something.
However if you want to proceed in emails I am fine with that too. It's up to you.

Nope, I don't mind. I find it interesting too :) I might not participate that much this time though - it's pretty intensive and requires some research!

Lauren wrote: "Nope, I don't mind. I find it interesting too :) I might not participate that much this time though - it's pretty intensive and requires some research!"

Ok I dont mind posting here then, if everyone is fine with it. There might be rather long posts though, but Ill try and split it up and be concise if I can.

I am always conscious Barbara of what I say in forums such as these, you are absolutely right, it would be sooo much easier to sit down with you with a Bible in hand and other material and have a conversation with you one on one. Its far more difficult using this format. I never want to come across as some religious fanatic, but neither do I ever want to play down my faith or not defend it, and I will upto the point were a discussion then turns into a debate. I don’t do debates as I think that in a debate most people have already made up their mind anyway. I understand and respect that people have the right to their own opinion, and likewise I hope people offer me the same courtesy, I also hope that nothing I say would upset anyone. I am working on my reply :-)

Take your time for the reply. And don't be concise. Let me have it all. :)

That is one thing I admire about you. This is our second big discussion about religion and in these discussions you are so adamant and passionate about religion and the bible and you quote passages left, right and centre. However in every other conversation I have with you, I never notice you are religious. If you would be a religious fanatic you would be throwing god around every time you get a chance and you don't. Only when the discussion asks for it will you talk about it.

On the debate issue I am right with you. I like to discuss stuff, not debate it since there is no point in talking if you don't have an open mind and are not willing to listen. And even though on this issue I would say there is a high probabilty that I won't be swayed by your arguments, I am willing to listen to you with an open mind and who knows... :)

Don't worry nothing you have said or could say will offend me. So long as you don't get personal. :) However I know that sometimes religious people can get offended if you say anything against their religion, because they will take it personal and that is why I wanted to make sure that I had not hurt your feelings.

I am still planning on coming to SA one day. So maybe we will get our chance someday to have that private discussion with a bible and the internet in hand.

Hi Barbara, so I have started to compile my evidence ;-) but the amount of information I have is quite vast. I am going to e-mail to you, and if anyone else wants a copy then I am willing to send it to them also. Theres just too much information and its your fault for saying "Let me have it all" lol Atleast this way you can read it in your own time.Im still trying to organise it all but will send it in parts .Hope this is ok.

PS:Thankyou for your comments...I dont throw religion around but when it comes up I use it as an opportunity. I guess I am passionate and I think you have to be, I think thats why alot of people dont like discussing religion as they often lead to heated arguments, the same can be said of politics. But it doesnt have to be that way.

I was thinking of splitting the discussion in 2/ 3 parts

1.Origins and evolution
2.The Bible written by man or God
3.Prophecy to support the Bible

something like that.

My experience is that people don't like discussing religion is because they take it personal and forget to respect each other's point of view/ideas but also as a person. People tend to insult each other when they have opposing views and religion is something miost people consider a very personal and intimite thing.

Passion is a necessity of life. If you're not passionate about things then you might as well kill yourself because your life is over. And religion is one of the more important parts of life because they are part of what define a person, so I would expect people to be passionate about religion because that means they are passionate about themselves and that is a good thing!

I look forward to getting your emails and reading them!

FInished Chapter 15

Not much to say, sadly. I've enjoyed some of the discussions, but I'm disappointed that the characters haven't raised more ideas about the aliens and their intentions. The scientists generally assume the aliens are highly advanced and humans are comparatively "backwards", a word that's been overused, I think. There's the possibility that the aliens might be hostile. There's the rather depressing idea that the aliens are inviting the some poor villagers to "gawk at the big city" and feel pathetic. I thought the most interesting ideas were from Hadden, especially the one about the message being from medical students looking for samples or specimens to add to a collection of species. A bit crazy, but I found it interesting simply because it hadn't occurred to me. These theories are all so negative though.

I would also have been interested to hear some more theological interpretations/perspectives, and not just the Christian stuff.

I'm intrigued to find out what's going to happen with the Machine, but on the whole I think Sagan is a dreadful storyteller. There's so much infodumping, and the characters all feel like flat plot devices.

Random notes:
The American bias annoys me.
Was hoping to have seen some aliens by now.
Why aren't people raising more questions/theories about the ship, the aliens, the five travellers, the message etc.?
Dumbass award goes to Rankin, for this quote: "that Machine's gonna fly straight to God or the Devil. Whichever one it is, you better send an honest-to-God Christian."

I'm at 90%.

Journey and meeting with aliens was so disappointing.

Bored. Also very confused about pretty much all the science discussed at this point. Just want to get this over and done with now.

Why did you think the meeting with the aliens was disappointing? What did you expect? or want?

I expected that it would be longer, and that the aliens wouldn't be 'dressed' like humans and using a setting that looked exactly like earth. It was the most un-alien alien encounter I've ever read.

I've got a few positive things to say as well though. I'm almost done. Will push on and finish it tonight, then post my thoughts.

Ok, all done.

On the downside, I found this to be an immensely boring book. Way too many infodumps and way too much science that Sagan doesn't really simplify for the layman. It's a book for scientists and those who study science, I think. In that, I feel a bit guilty giving it a low rating - my lack of education here isn't necessarily a flaw in the book. But on a subjective level, I didn't enjoy reading it.

There were a few interesting discussions and ideas though. My favourite character was probably Hadden, because he gave me the most food for thought, even if it was silly.

Emma, I have to say that I was surprised that you criticism of the religious aspects were so harsh. For the majority of the novel, it's understandable, but towards the end I think the novel actually takes a fairly positive approach to religion.

Palmer Joss is portrayed very sympathetically, and Ellie chooses to tell him the truth - a minister, not an atheist or an agnostic. When she travels in the Machine, she ends up having what she considers to be a religious experience, and when the Five return, they are, ironically, faced with the problem of convincing others of this momentous, transcendent experience for which they have no real proof. Ellie essentially wants everyone to take a leap of faith and believe in these superior beings that no one other than the five have seen. They are like the apostles, in a way.

Eda asks them all to write about their experiences so they will not be forgotten, and I can imagine those manuscripts forming a new bible or sorts.

And then at the end, Ellie finds proof of God's existence. The book doesn't seem to negate religion at all. Instead I see it as a marriage of science and religion.

I dont think I was that harsh Lauren :-) Alot of Christians would say that Science and religion contradict one another, but from my experience on the whole they complement one another. After all Science and religion involve the search for truth. However, it is the fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible—not the Bible itself—that is at odds with science.

I was disappointed that the book wasnt exciting as I initially thought it would be, its a good idea but fell flat and that was my main irritation with the book not that it was at odds with the Bible.

I do seem to enjoy these read alongs, we have have some great discussions, hopefully we can read something together again. Maybe in the Parasol Protectorate challenge there might be an opportunity to read something together, Im not sure will have to take a look what people are reading. :-) Glad you finished the book, for me it was hard going.

I loved the book. Especially since the way the humans and the aliens met left so much open. I don't know if this book has a sequel but it should. It is a religious experience in a way and the start of a new religion as you describe, Lauren. It gives Earth a way to get used to the idea we are not alone. If the aliens would come to Earth and say: "Hello here we are." What do you think would happen. Mass panic, governments turning to their weapons and armies, discord because the aliens landed in Asia instead of America etc. etc. etc. I think and I have the idea Sagan agrees that the human race as a whole is still to immature to handle the whole we are not alone thing. This way we can be eased into it and mature with the knowledge untill we can really go out there and take up residence in the stars.
I would love to read what happens a couple of hundred years in the future when the human race is ready and makes that contact again in a sequel.

Emma, if there is a book that you would like to read and discuss just mention it in the reading buddies topic. I am sure people will want to join you in reading them.

Emma wrote: "I dont think I was that harsh Lauren :-) Alot of Christians would say that Science and religion contradict one another, but from my experience on the whole they complement one another. After all Sc..."

I was thinking specifically of the last line of your review, which in retrospect isn't that bad, I admit :)
I didn't think that Sagan's critique really looked at details like the issue of where Cain got his wife though. Rather, I thought it looked at religion as a whole. Two of Ellie's criticisms were that religion treats people like children who need to be forced into submission by a parent figure, and that it tends to ascribe anything people don't understand to God, rather than trying to learn more.

I don't think Ellie/Sagan retracts these criticisms at the end; instead a different understanding of religion is proposed.

Barbara wrote: "I loved the book. Especially since the way the humans and the aliens met left so much open. I don't know if this book has a sequel but it should. It is a religious experience in a way and the start..."

I really think you should read Existence by David Brin, Barbara. the subject of the book is the same, except that humanity finds an alien artefact, rather than a radio message. Having read Contact now, I can see how much it influenced Existence, but in my opinion, Existence is a far superior book. If you want to see Contact with a more mature human race, Existence is it. In some ways, it's harder to read - it has a much broader scope with more characters and places to keep track of, it uses a variety of narrative styles (including articles, blog posts, the perspective of a person with Asperger's) and its technology is much more futuristic, so it takes a while to adjust. However, I think Brin is a better storyteller, and he makes the science more palatable and engaging. He offers way more ideas and perspectives, so I found the read much more fulfilling, despite being quite difficult. I'd like to read it again some day.

I think that Contact underestimates humanity, to an extent. I agree that aliens landing on Earth would probably lead to mass panic, but why would the aliens assume that a group of people who were willing to board a ship without provisions or controls to meet a groups of aliens with unknown motives wouldn't be able to handle looking at an alien face or landscape? If I was one of the five, I would have asked them to drop the guise. The aliens treat them like children in much the same way that religion does.

I also thought Kitz made a good point when he asked Ellie why the aliens didn't bother giving them any proof, after all the effort they went to. Why does the rest of the humanity have to make a leap of faith, as we are expected to do with religion? Why keep the aliens as myth?

I really didn't mind as much that the aliens treated them as children. In a way I expected it. These aliens have been around for quite a long time and are technologically so far ahead I can't even think of a comparison. I would have found it more strange if they treated humanity as equal.

I'll add Existence to my wishlist. It sounds interesting.

OK, I quit. I read about 15% but it was just too boring. I kept coming back and trying, but it was still boring. I feel that if I give a book fair chance and don't enjoy it, I might as well stop and try something else that I will enjoy.

Lol, I don't blame you. I think the main reason I managed to keep going is that I had partly given up on the novel, in the sense that I read through boring bits without caring whether I was following everything. Usually I'm quite pedantic about that, and I'll re-read pages if my mind had been wandering, but not this time.