The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Chapters 5 thru 7

We were discussing the etymology of Wellwood', but how about 'Grimwith'? And another question is the sisterly rivalry between Olive and Violet? It is latent but again one can feel some hidden tension. Why did Violet accept this role of a nanny so despondently? More questions than answers ...

Love for Humphry, whom she met at the same time as he met Olive, when all the girl students were falling for him? But Violet was the sensible, not the wild one of the sisters and it was Olive's wildness which attracted Humphry.

From time to time throughout the book Violet is referred to as Violet Grimwith and it is she who seems to have had the 'grimmer' jobs since their childhood. She is sensible and pragmatic, not bohemian like her sister and I feel that Byatt approves of her steady, more conservative, approach to life. In the chaos of their lives she is a lynchpin.

The rivalry perhaps comes from the sisters being the opposite of each other, of them admiring what in the other they did not possess themselves.

MadgeUK wrote: "Love for Humphry, whom she met at the same time as he met Olive, when all the girl students were falling for him? But Violet was the sensible, not the wild one of the sisters and it was Olive's wi..."

The Grimwith sisters do remind me somewhat of the Dashwood sisters in Sense and Sensibility. Violet is practical and reserved like Elinor and Olive is more emotional and spontaneous like Marianne.

Of course, Austen makes Marianne suffer greatly for her lack of self-control. We'll have to see if Byatt does the same to Olive (I suspect the answer is Yes).

One thing that caught my eye in Chapter 5:

"Children flickered and flitted along the flowerbeds and in and out of the shrubbery as the light thickened."

For some reason this quote immediately brought an image of fireflies into my mind. Another example of wildness in people perhaps? It's also very strange to me that this lovely passage is immediately followed by the story of Tartarinov being a possible murderer and his escape from Russia. The juxtaposition is very odd. One minute beauty, the next brutality.

Also in this chapter when the boys are envisioning war, the description of what each boy was thinking about really is a great example of their personalities. The two boys who have been well off and not known hunger or work - one is looking at the flowers and grass (budding naturalist?), one thinks he could kill but there is an omission of blood in his view. Tom, who has known hunger and work has a very clear view of his mortality and that of those around him. The artist in him plus his life experiences, show him the blood, muscle, bones, etc. underneath our skin and how vulnerable it all is.

Yes and at the end of chapter 4, when Florian was asked 'What do you want to be', he replied 'A fox, in a foxhole, in a wood' which brings to mind the 'foxholes' on WWI battlefields. Foreshadowing?

Maybe. I know I've officially lost my mind as I keep confusing characters. Thank goodness for the character list in the background info area. I've now printed it and put it inside the cover of the book!

That's a good idea. The book should perhaps be printed with it, like they often do with Russian novels.

MadgeUK wrote: "Yes and at the end of chapter 4, when Florian was asked 'What do you want to be', he replied 'A fox, in a foxhole, in a wood' which brings to mind the 'foxholes' on WWI battlefields. Foreshadowing?"

Oh, dear, prescient I fear. I didn't note this and I shuddered sadly as I read your comment, Madge. Let's see, is Florian idealistic? Rah, rah? I'll have to reread.

Lily - glad to see you around as flooding is expected in NY. Is all well where you are?

Amanda wrote: "Of course, Austen makes Marianne suffer greatly for her lack of self-control. We'll have to see if Byatt does the same to Olive (I suspect the answer is Yes). "

I think so too.

But Olive is different from Marianne. Marianne is a bit shallow. She's always lived in comfort, and is merely self-centered. She has a romantic outlook on life.

In contrast, Olive grew up in a "grim" environment, lost people she loves. Yes, she does "hide" in her fantasy world in some ways, but in no way is it romantic - terrible things happen in her stories.

And she does try to help in her own way. Maybe she should fight in a different way to help people who are poor. But, in my humble opinion, there is no one 'right' way to help people. Everyone does it in a different way.

MadgeUK wrote: "Yes and at the end of chapter 4, when Florian was asked 'What do you want to be', he replied 'A fox, in a foxhole, in a wood' which brings to mind the 'foxholes' on WWI battlefields. Foreshadowing?"

Yes, foreshadowing. The book begins in the 1890s so when the boys are young adults, they will be the age to go off to fight in WWI.

The fight between Humphrey and Basil obviously represented the fight between capitalism and socialism.

Again, Byatt seems to be criticizing both sides. Obviously, there is some hypocrisy on Humphrey's part. He lives in relative luxury while helping the poor. And Basil is obviously benefitting from labor that is being exploited in poorer countries.

Lynnm wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Of course, Austen makes Marianne suffer greatly for her lack of self-control. We'll have to see if Byatt does the same to Olive (I suspect the answer is Yes). "

I think so too.

B..."

One of the most interesting things about this section was the story of the Grimwith sisters terrible childhood and the way they walked away from their past and just completely erased it (at least outwardly).

They have a very similar background to Philip, but, so far at least, neither sister has given him any indication that they understand what he is going through.

This reminds me a bit of Dickens. He was a tireless advocate for the poor and downtrodden, who seems to have been deeply embarrassed by his own impoverished childhood. I don't think even his children knew that he worked in a factory as a child or that his family lived in debtors prison for a time.

Amanda wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Of course, Austen makes Marianne suffer greatly for her lack of self-control. We'll have to see if Byatt does the same to Olive (I suspect the answer is Yes). "

I thin..."

I found the Grimwith sisters' history to be very interesting, and I was really surprised by it. I had a completely different opinion of Olive before and after that section. Maybe Olive was completely spent as her mother indicated, and thus hides everything away in that box Byatt mentions. The girls' childhoods made me understand why they are who they are much better.

What did you guys think of the "Shrubbery"?

The box makes me think of Pandora.....

MadgeUK wrote: "The box makes me think of Pandora....."

Madge - I didn't think about that, but you're right. It's a perfect illustration of Pandora.

I'm starting this one a bit late, but will try to catch up to the various chapter discussions! I hope that it is an interesting read. I've thought about reading Byatt for a long time but have never tried her novels.

Print out the character list found in the background material. It will help you keep the characters straight as you go along.