Ancient World discussion

Any historical fiction about phoenicians you guys could recommend ?

Found one, Salammbô. Thanks a lot for my help, myself.

I can add

amine wrote: "Found one, Salammbô. Thanks a lot for my help, myself."

Thanks for the pointer.
Read some of the reviews here and then bought it.
Will get round to it eventually.

Salammbô is a weird book. I went through a Gustave Flaubert phase and read his majors in my youth, but I remember I got bogged down in Salammbo, in spite of the subject matter. Tell us if either of you manage. -- I've always meant to try again one day.

Sure yeah, I'll get to it sometime next year.

Meanwhile, allow me to also use this thread to list everything I find about either phoenicians in the middle east or in north africa (Carthage and it's influence) for the benefit of everybody - doesn't have to be novels actually, historical accounts are also very interesting :

Hanno The Navigator : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanno_th...

Check this group too : http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

The Punic Wars 264-146 BC

Good topic. I've always been surprised by the lack of novels on this ancient culture. The fact that they sailed so far, and often did things that weren't done again until centuries later (like sailing around Africa) seems custom-made for great fiction.

Most of what gets written on the Phonoenicians seems to focus on the Punic Wars and their relationship with Rome. I'd like to see a story set in their early days, before they clashed with Rome. Maybe something about the founding of Carthage, or the afore mentioned trip around Africa. Or the adventures of a family of sailors, who, facing financial ruin, dared the Atlantic and sailed North, stopping in Portigal, France, England, who knows? Just descriptions of the things they traded for would make great reading.

If I have the time for the research, I might write that, if no one else does it for me :)

Great ideas. Look forward to reading that :)

This makes me wonder how many of us become writers because we love to read. Then we think of a great idea for a novel, wait for someone else to write it...and then just do it ourselves because no one else does!

Looks like there's some confusion here about the Phoenicians and the Punic Wars, which were between Carthage and Rome. Phoenicia was conquered by Cyrus the Great in 539 B.C. and was never independent after that time. The First Punic War started in 264 B.C. The Phoenicians do have two links to Carthage, however. They are said to have founded Carthage in 814 B.C. and many of their citizens migrated there after 539.

Sandra wrote: "Good topic. I've always been surprised by the lack of novels on this ancient culture. The fact that they sailed so far, and often did things that weren't done again until centuries later (like sa..."

Amazingly enough - There's supposedly phoenician writings in Brazil...! whether a hoax or not (look it up)- it's certainly food for the imagination!

Amine, that is amazing--and also wonderful to hear. Because I used to look at a map of the world, and the maps in my Time/Life book on the Phoenicians, and imagine them reaching Brazil. In the story I wanted to write, I planned it would be a shipwreck, and the survivors married into the local population. Maybe it really happened. Or maybe, someone will grab the idea and turn it into a great novel!

We always underestimate what ancient populations did. Includes sea travel.

Best book I've read on the Phoenicians is The World of the Phoenicians, by Sabatino Moscati.

amine wrote: "Amazingly enough - There's supposedly phoenician writings in Brazil...! whether a hoax or not (look it up)- it's certainly food for the imagination!"

Interesting story and entirely plausible.

On a related note, the Vikings built a settlement in northern Canada in the 11th Century, almost five hundred years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/4

and may have been conducting ongoing trade with the indigenous people in the Canadian Arctic as well.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/11/20/a-...

Given the Phoenician's legendary seafaring skills, it wouldn't be surprising if they did manage to make it to the Americas, even if it was not their intended destination.

Bryn wrote: "We always underestimate what ancient populations did. Includes sea travel."

Agreed. I wonder how many records of ancient cultures and their exploits have been lost or intentionally suppressed/destroyed by the historical victors.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-m...

David have you read Gavin Menzies book The Lost Empire of Atlantis: History's Greatest Mystery Revealed ? Very interesting read.

Sounds interesting!

If Menzies' premise is correct, that the Minoans were adept ancient seafarers, it is possible the Phoenicians, whose culture began to flourish around the collapse/displacement of the Minoan civilization around 1500BC, may have inherited the trading empire of the Minoans, sort of like how the USA inherited economic custody/advantage of much of the British economic Empire after WWII.

In further support, Minoan style paintings were recently discovered (2009) in a Canaanite Palace at Tel Kabri, near Nahariya in Israel. The Phoenicians are believed to have originated from the Canaanites.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/...

Perhaps we should start a Minoan thread as well. :)

I have real problems with Gavin Menzies; his 1421: The Year China Discovered America is one of the worst pieces of pseudohistory I've ever seen.

Good to know. I read some of the reviews of the Atlantis/Minoan book and prevailing comments were that it is interesting but did a fair bit of reaching. Most felt it was still worth reading, though with a proverbial grain of salt.

Maybe we should have a category called 'historical theory' for works of historical supposition that show some evidence, but perhaps not enough hard research (published archeological findings, ancient text, peer-reviewed articles etc.) to be shifted from being merely plausible to being considered 'factual' (ie. accepted as history) as much as something can be known with any reasonable surety.

David wrote: "Sounds interesting!

If Menzies' premise is correct, that the Minoans were adept ancient seafarers, it is possible the Phoenicians, whose culture began to flourish around the collapse/displacement..."

That's basically his premise.

David wrote: "Good to know. I read some of the reviews of the Atlantis/Minoan book and prevailing comments were that it is interesting but did a fair bit of reaching. Most felt it was still worth reading, though..."

To be fair to him, his research was fairly thorough and wide reaching, even if the results don't please a lot of people.

David Krae wrote:
The Phoenicians are believed to have originated from the Canaanites. "

Yes - I think some of their writing even contain "we, BenCanaan (sons of Canaan)" so yeah. I even read some theory by a Moroccan linguist about the fact that the name itself "phoenicia" is only a "greekification" of Bencanaan or something.

Margaret wrote: "To be fair to him, his research was fairly thorough and wide reaching, even if the results don't please a lot of people."

I think it's always important to remember the following:

1) history and archeology are a lot like solving a puzzle; it's a matter of assembling the pieces and hoping to get a discernible picture,

2) in our society, the field of history is competitive and sometimes cutthroat when it comes to presenting the 'best' theory of history, and

3) if there is new evidence or a new way of looking at evidence, it's always worth looking at, and just because parts of the story might not hold up or are later rejected due to new evidence coming to light, it doesn't necessarily invalidate the remainder of the story

In terms of Menzies, from what I gather, he is making a genuine effort to put the puzzle together using pieces he has found that he believes make some sense. It is certainly worth looking at, regardless of what the 'establishment' version of history might be, since 'accepted' versions are also subject to change, given enough evidence.

Linguistics and etymology are also an interesting way to explore history and can certainly help support and corroborate the meaning of physical evidence.

How about this? On Alexander's siege of Tyre, from the Tyrian point of view.

The Curse Of Ezekiel by Nabil A. Saleh

There's no description here so one I found on the web:
"Set against the historical backdrop of Alexander the Great's siege of the Phoenician City of Tyre in 332 B.C., The Curse of Ezekiel follows the story of Bomilcar, a young Tyrian who lives a carefree existence despite the advance of Alexander's powerful army toward the island shores."

Interesting, thanks!

The phoenicians we're a people close to the water and influenced by it. Aside from the resources it gave them because of the location unlike many cultures the phoenicians traded and came in constant contact with many cultures. Great stories of both valor and bravery from foreigners crossed their lands. Within the walls of Tyre were temples of spirits(god's) foreign and local. The Phoenicians we're not a warring people though it seems later in history certain factors led them to clutch the sword.