The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Nine thread for the next Presidential Series selection (The Years of Lyndon Johnson: The Passage of Power) by Robert A. Caro.

The week's reading assignment is:

Week NINE - November 12th - November 18th -> Chapters FIFTEEN & SIXTEEN p. 378 - 436
FIFTEEN - The Drums and SIXTEEN - EOB 274

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig is the assisting moderator who will be leading this discussion. We hope you enjoy this discussion of another great book in the Presidential Series.

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Notes

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Citations

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Glossary

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Bibliography

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Welcome,

~Bryan

Robert A. Caro

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Fifteen: The Drums

This chapter covers the events of JFK's viewing and funeral. LBJ was not the lead story as he continued to work at the Executive Office Building with little press.

Everyone was following the events surrounding JFK. On Saturday, the body was on view (with JFK's belongings on dollies). On Sunday was the Capitol procession and ceremony with the funeral on Monday. Oswald was shot and killed by Jack Ruby.

By December 7th, the Johnson family had finally moved into the White House.

Chapter Sixteen: EOB 274

So, what was LBJ doing? A lot. He was making symbolic appearances like meeting with foreign dignitaries, but he also was assessing how things stood. First, he was following the Oswald case as he learned that Oswald went to the Soviet and Cuban Embassies in Mexico City. He faced serious challenges with the budget. The government was deep in the budget process and decisions had to be made in about a week, while facing some tensions between the liberals and conservatives in Congress. The tax cuts had stalled under Senator Harry Byrd, who was famous for pay as you go budgeting. LBJ also was looking into a vote that would prevent the sale of wheat to the Soviet Union(Mundt bill), a sale JFK supported. He had to kill the proposal, but needed the votes to do it.

LBJ tried to get Sorenson to work on his joint address. On Sunday, he had a meeting with his NSC principals about Vietman. General Minh was in power in the wake of the coup,but the CIA was saying that Vietcon activities were up and Minh had trouble holding power. LBJ did not want any major operations, and did support a withdrawal, but at the same time, the president felt committed to South Vietnam with increased covert activities to help Minh.

To help shore up support, LBJ talked with civil rights and union leaders. He also held a passionate meeting with state governors who were there for JFK's funeral.

LBJ's joint address was successful as many say he sounded "presidential." He also committed himself to civil rights as president.

Here is the famous picture of JFK, Jr. at the funeral:

It is interesting to speculate on the power of TV to help create a myth and legend in the case of JFK. In the past, you heard the radio or read the papers, but it is not the same.

The TV offered visual that was live; radio was audio, and photos in newspapers came after the happening. JFK's assassination became a legend in its continual drama - Oswald's shooting and later death - and ending at that time with the entire USA being able to witness JFK's funeral as it happened. There was no talk at that time about anything in disfavor of JFK - his affairs, Bay of Pigs, etc. All that would come much later as the USA populace recovered from the assassination and funeral and became realistic and returned to living-in-the-moment again. The first sign of this was when people began questioning why various structures, buildings and organizations had their names changed to JFK whatever (JFK Airport in NYC for example), and as such, some got their former names back (Cape Canaveral area; Space Center remains Kennedy Space Center).

Great points, Virginia. The coverage would be positive.

Much of the planning of JFK's funeral was purposefully planned by Jackie to replicate Lincoln's funeral . . . and she wanted it to be a spectacle so that people would immortalize the events of his death and there were all the endless comparisons between the coincidences of Lincoln's assassination and JFK's . . . and TV coverage provided that immortalization. Those days are definitely burned into my memory banks . . . . and frankly after about 4-5 days of relentless airing of nothing but this event . . . I was ready to get it over.

Tomerobber wrote: "Much of the planning of JFK's funeral was purposefully planned by Jackie to replicate Lincoln's funeral . . . and she wanted it to be a spectacle so that people would immortalize the events of his ..."

No doubt. The Kennedys are very good at image building, even to the present day. His death did immortalize him, give him a "bigger than life" image.

Well, Vietnam has finally come up. Since it is such a big subject, we will try to focus on this chapter as much as we can, and less on hindsight of the later years.

What do you think about LBJ's strategy at the meeting on that Sunday?

Thanks, Cheryl. The first quote is telling. I agree, he will lose the presidency because of this belief.

If you ask LBJ, he would say he had a strategy, right? Wait to do any major operations until after the election. Meanwhile, scale back our advisers, but increase local training and covert action. It adds some flexibility, well, in his mind.

National Security Action Memo 273:

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/...

It looks like a slippery slope. This piece also plays a major role in conspiracy theories.

Well, some people believe elements inside the government were behind the assassination of JFK (CIA, military). They feared JFK was getting soft on Communism. So, they see NSAM 273 as an indication that LBJ turned the White House around on Vietnam. Oliver Stone played this up in his movie JFK.

Cheryl wrote: "Two things about LBJ's strategy that Sunday come to mind for me. First, the statement he lived and eventually politically died by, "I am not going to lose Vietnam. I am not going to be the Presiden..."

I seem to remember (it's been a long time since I read it) that David Halberstam in implied that Kennedy might not have stayed in Vietnam, but I truly don't see how any President during the Cold War era would have had the courage to withdraw and risk being labeled as "the President who lost Vietnam." Having said that, I think LBJ may have been more susceptible to letting his fear of being branded a failure guide his decisions more than JFK possibly would have.

The JFK Vietnam issue is hard to decipher. One of my colleagues is actually working on a book on this, so I'm excited to see what he is coming up with.

True, Steven, there was immense ideology pressure to stay the course in Vietnam and he might have felt he would be labeled a failure.

Cheryl, I think LBJ ran out of time. Even if he wanted to pull out, it would take a long time of diplomacy to reach an armistice and pull out our material, troops, and troop support. Nixon had no idea how to end the war and it took Nixon 4 years to pull out.

It is interesting to read about how LBJ approached the Kennedy men and tailor his pleas.

This last chapter includes a famous statement made by LBJ regarding civil rights; he is responding to someone who said he shouldn't waste his efforts on something like civil rights:

"Well, what the hell's the presidency for?" (p. 428)

Do you see more passion with LBJ on civil rights than JFK?

Address to Joint Session of Congress:

All I have I would have given gladly not to be standing here today.

The greatest leader of our time has been struck down by the foulest deed of our time. Today John Fitzgerald Kennedy lives on in the immortal words and works that he left behind. He lives on in the mind and memories of mankind. He lives on in the hearts of his countrymen.

No words are sad enough to express our sense of loss. No words are strong enough to express our determination to continue the forward thrust of America that he began.

The dream of conquering the vastness of space—the dream of partnership across the Atlantic—and across the Pacific as well—the dream of a Peace Corps in less developed nations—the dream of education for all of our children—the dream of jobs for all who seek them and need them—the dream of care for our elderly—the dream of an all-out attack on mental illness—and above all, the dream of equal rights for all Americans, whatever their race or color—these and other American dreams have been vitalized by his drive and by his dedication.

And now the ideas and the ideals which he so nobly represented must and will be translated into effective action.

Under John Kennedy's leadership, this Nation has demonstrated that it has the courage to seek peace, and it has the fortitude to risk war. We have proved that we are a good and reliable friend to those who seek peace and freedom. We have shown that we can also be a formidable foe to those who reject the path of peace and those who seek to impose upon us or our allies the yoke of tyranny.

This Nation will keep its commitments from South Viet-Nam to West Berlin. We will be unceasing in the search for peace; resourceful in our pursuit of areas of agreement even with those with whom we differ; and generous and loyal to those who join with us in common cause.

In this age when there can be no losers in peace and no victors in war, we must recognize the obligation to match national strength with national restraint. We must be prepared at one and the same time for both the confrontation of power and the limitation of power. We must be ready to defend the national interest and to negotiate the common interest. This is the path that we shall continue to pursue. Those who test our courage will find it strong, and those who seek our friendship will find it honorable. We will demonstrate anew that the strong can be just in the use of strength; and the just can be strong in the defense of justice.

And let all know we will extend no special privilege and impose no persecution. We will carry on the fight against poverty and misery, and disease and ignorance, in other lands and in our own.

We will serve all the Nation, not one section or one sector, or one group, but all Americans. These are the United States—a united people with a united purpose.

Our American unity does not depend upon unanimity. We have differences; but now, as in the past, we can derive from those differences strength, not weakness, wisdom, not despair. Both as a people and a government, we can unite upon a program, a program which is wise and just, enlightened and constructive.

For 32 years Capitol Hill has been my home. I have shared many moments of pride with you, pride in the ability of the Congress of the United States to act, to meet any crisis, to distill from our differences strong programs of national action.

An assassin's bullet has thrust upon me the awesome burden of the Presidency. I am here today to say I need your help; I cannot bear this burden alone. I need the help of all Americans, and all America. This Nation has experienced a profound shock, and in this critical moment, it is our duty, yours and mine, as the Government of the United States, to do away with uncertainty and doubt and delay, and to show that we are capable of decisive action; that from the brutal loss of our leader we will derive not weakness, but strength; that we can and will act and act now.

From this chamber of representative government, let all the world know and none misunderstand that I rededicate this Government to the unswerving support of the United Nations, to the honorable and determined execution of our commitments to our allies, to the maintenance of military strength second to none, to the defense of the strength and the stability of the dollar, to the expansion of our foreign trade, to the reinforcement of our programs of mutual assistance and cooperation in Asia and Africa, and to our Alliance for Progress in this hemisphere.

On the 20th day of January, in 1961, John F. Kennedy told his countrymen that our national work would not be finished "in the first thousand days, nor in the life of this administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But," he said, "let us begin."

Today, in this moment of new resolve, I would say to all my fellow Americans, let us continue.

This is our challenge—not to hesitate, not to pause, not to turn about and linger over this evil moment, but to continue on our course so that we may fulfill the destiny that history has set for us. Our most immediate tasks are here on this Hill.

First, no memorial oration or eulogy could more eloquently honor President Kennedy's memory than the earliest possible passage of the civil rights bill for which he fought so long. We have talked long enough in this country about equal rights. We have talked for one hundred years or more. It is time now to write the next chapter, and to write it in the books of law.

I urge you again, as I did in 1957 and again in 1960, to enact a civil rights law so that we can move forward to eliminate from this Nation every trace of discrimination and oppression that is based upon race or color. There could be no greater source of strength to this Nation both at home and abroad.

And second, no act of ours could more fittingly continue the work of President Kennedy than the early passage of the tax bill for which he fought all this long year. This is a bill designed to increase our national income and Federal revenues, and to provide insurance against recession. That bill, if passed without delay, means more security for those now working, more jobs for those now without them, and more incentive for our economy.

In short, this is no time for delay. It is a time for action—strong, forward-looking action on the pending education bills to help bring the light of learning to every home and hamlet in America—strong, forward-looking action on youth employment opportunities; strong, forward-looking action on the pending foreign aid bill, making clear that we are not forfeiting our responsibilities to this hemisphere or to the world, nor erasing Executive flexibility in the conduct of our foreign affairs—and strong, prompt, and forward-looking action on the remaining appropriation bills.

In this new spirit of action, the Congress can expect the full cooperation and support of the executive branch. And in particular, I pledge that the expenditures of your Government will be administered with the utmost thrift and frugality. I will insist that the Government get a dollar's value for a dollar spent. The Government will set an example of prudence and economy. This does not mean that we will not meet out unfilled needs or that we will not honor our commitments. We will do both.

As one who has long served in both Houses of the Congress, I firmly believe in the independence and the integrity of the legislative branch. And I promise you that I shall always respect this. It is deep in the marrow of my bones. With equal firmness, I believe in the capacity and I believe in the ability of the Congress, despite the divisions of opinions which characterize our Nation, to act—to act wisely, to act vigorously, to act speedily when the need arises.

The need is here. The need is now. I ask your help.

We meet in grief, but let us also meet in renewed dedication and renewed vigor. Let us meet in action, in tolerance, and in mutual understanding. John Kennedy's death commands what his life conveyed—that America must move forward. The time has come for Americans of all races and creeds and political beliefs to understand and to respect one another. So let us put an end to the teaching and the preaching of hate and evil and violence. Let us turn away from the fanatics of the far left and the far right, from the apostles of bitterness and bigotry, from those defiant of law, and those who pour venom into our Nation's bloodstream.

I profoundly hope that the tragedy and the torment of these terrible days will bind us together in new fellowship, making us one people in our hour of sorrow. So let us here highly resolve that John Fitzgerald Kennedy did not live—or die—in vain. And on this Thanksgiving eve, as we gather together to ask the Lord's blessing, and give Him our thanks, let us unite in those familiar and cherished words:

America, America,
God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good
With brotherhood
From sea to shining sea.
(Source: http://millercenter.org/president/spe...)

Video:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/15...

Bryan,
Thanks so much for posting the link to the video. I could see for myself how composed, deliberate, and presidential LBJ was. His delivery was an amazing accomplishment given his well-known weaknesses in speaking before large crowds.

In these two chapters LBJ rises to the occasion, again and again.

You asked an interesting questions above: "Do you see more passion with LBJ on civil rights than JFK? I don't know enough about JFK to answer that, but I am very interested in hearing from others who do.

Even if JFK's passion was equal, he certainly hadn't figured out how to get his legislation passed. LBJ put the passage of the Civil Rights bill in the number one position of the laws that Congress needed to pass and he figured out how to make it happen.

I was impressed with Johnson's innate intelligence in these chapters. He had not been briefed about so much that was going on, and yet when advisers explained the problems to him, he seemed to grasp issues easily. His performance in meeting the world leaders was particularly impressive. He could glance at a note card prepared for him, and then carry on a very competent conversation with each leader. And yet, he knew his limitations, and was very effective in getting Kennedy men to stay on.

He also figured out right away that he could get legislation passed by tying it to honoring a martyred president. He was smart enough to figure out how to use the almost canonization of Kennedy by the press, although it must have made it daunting to follow in his footsteps.

Oh, I supposed that it is all downhill from here :-), but in these two chapters I really admired Lyndon Johnson.

Thanks, Anne. You really do see Caro's picture of LBJ at his finest. I was impressed, too, how he handled the delegation, then switch gears to work with the governors. He has great skills.

Regarding the passion, I think Caro has it right. JFK sympathized with civil rights, but he did not see it like LBJ did. There seemed to be an "aloofness" to it, but LBJ, I feel, has lived it, seen it, and this affected him.

You might have seen an earlier civil rights bill if LBJ won the 1960 nomination and the presidency.

Bryan wrote: "Thanks, Anne. You really do see Caro's picture of LBJ at his finest. I was impressed, too, how he handled the delegation, then switch gears to work with the governors. He has great skills.

Rega..."

I do think that possibly LBJ was "more passionate" regarding Civil Rights than JFK, which is not the same thing as saying that JFK wasn't committed to Civil Rights, just that JFK may have may have had what he viewed as a pragmatic "do what's possible, compromise if necessary approach" which didn't work with the 1963 Senate. LBJ (for whatever reason) decided that he would get the Civil Rights bill passed, come "hell or high water" and was successful for a number of reasons, not least of which was his legislative maneuvering skill, as he had shown that he had in abundance when he was "Master of the Senate."

Steven,
Kennedy was raised in privilege, although I don't think it was ever easy to be a child of Joseph and Rose Kennedy. Johnson's family had hit the bottom. I think that is what made it possible for him to be more passionate about Civil Rights, the elderly, and the poor. It's different when you see things up close and personal.

I thought an interesting quote was,
There had been, the President said, too much bickering among the various American agencies in South Vietnam -- the Army, the CIA, the USIA, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the State Department -- over our aims there. "We had spent too much of our time and energy trying to shape other countries in our own image." p.539/1041 of Nook eBook

That very concept is frequently where our problems with relations with other countries lies . . . we keep thinking that what we have is what everyone else should have. Unfortunately one system does not work for Everyone. And although I can never image living in any other place and fully appreciate the freedoms provided in this country . . . many others do not want that lifestyle.

I believe that at the beginning of the Vietnam war . . . most leaders felt that if they just won the war . . . then they could just get it done, and get it over and get out. But there were so many others factors that kept interfering . . . it just never happened.

I must say that although I lived through this period in real time . . . I was quite ignorant of just how great LBJ was during this time. I was very impressed at just what a great politician he really was. And I'm looking forward to reading all of the other 3 volumes. Caro is great at making history come alive . . . not just be a static listing of facts and figures.

I agree Steven, I think JFK was committed to civil rights.

Tomerobber wrote: "I must say that although I lived through this period in real time . . . I was quite ignorant of just how great LBJ was during this time. I was very impressed at just what a great politician he real..."

It made me appreciate LBJ more, too.

Ann wrote: "Steven,
Kennedy was raised in privilege, although I don't think it was ever easy to be a child of Joseph and Rose Kennedy. Johnson's family had hit the bottom. I think that is what made it possib..."

Well said, Ann.

Tomereader,
I appreciated your comments on trying to shape other countries to our own image. Many times in our history, our leaders have shown so much ignorance about other countries and lack of appreciation for their cultures.

Johnson wants to just get on with the war, but how could the U.S. win in Vietnam when the South's government had so little popular support?