The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the eighth week's discussion of Caesar by Colleen McCullough. The threads are always open so folks can participate at any time as we move along and/or as you get caught up. This book even though it is part of the First Man in Rome Series can easily stand alone. You do not have to have read any of the other books to read this one.

The eighth week's reading assignment is:

Week 8 – Dec 3-9: pp. 360-420

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off October 15th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Vicki


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc. with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

Here is the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Colleen McCullough

Section Overview and Summary

Rome: from March to December of 50 B.C.: 360 - 420

After Curio’s harangue in the Senate about treating Pompey the same way they want to treat Caesar (stripping him of his legions and provinces, revoking his imperium), Pompey is stunned and hurt. His father-in-law, Metellus Scipio, tells him that he’s jealous of Caesar and is afraid he’ll supplant him as First Man in Rome and he realizes it’s true.

Cato remembers back to when he met and fell in love with Marcia, the wife he divorced so that Hortensius could marry her. It was seven years ago, at a dinner given by Marcius Phillipus (Octavian’s step-father). Cato had just returned from settling Rome’s affairs in Cyprus, after Rome had annexed it. He made sure that the Roman treasury got all the cash from selling off the works of art there. It was mutual love at first sight for Cato and Marcia, and they were very happily married for two years until Cato decided he had to give her to Hortensius to prove to himself that he didn’t need love. But now Hortensius has died, leaving Marcia a widow and giving Cato an immense store of excellent wine (since Cato always refuses monetary bequests). Cato tells Phillipus he can have the best of the wines if he won’t oppose Cato and Marcia remarrying, and so it is done.

Brutus receives a letter from Bibulus in Syria telling him that Bibulus’ two sons have been killed trying to get more troops for their father from Egypt. He has to tell Porcia the news. He also tells her he once wanted to marry her, but after being crushed by Caesar’s breaking his betrothal to Julia, he was determined to marry someone who didn’t mean anything to him.

The Senate puts off more discussion of what to do with Caesar until November, when Curio’s term of office as Tribune of the Plebs is almost up. Caesar’s plan is to have Marc Antony replace Curio as Tribune. The situation in Syria is grave, so Pompey suggests that he and Caesar each donate a legion to go there. Curio can’t veto this since they are being treated equally. But the legion Pompey gives is one he loaned to Caesar, so effectively, Caesar is losing two legions. The rumor is that these two legions don’t like their commander, Caesar, but that’s just disinformation – all Caesar’s soldiers love him.

Pompey is vacationing at one of his villas near Neapolis when word is given out that he’s fallen gravely ill. It’s a ruse to see how many important men will come and try to see him. He gets a letter from Labienus saying that Caesar’s cutting him loose. There have been rumors that Caesar has brought some of his legions across the Alps to Italian Gaul, but no one from there has heard anything about it. Finally, in December consul Marcellus Major says he has a letter from officials in Placentia that Caesar is there with troops. Curio and Antony declare that a lie, but Marcellus dismisses the Senate and quickly goes to Pompey to offer him a sword, a signal that the Senate has voted to have him defend Rome. That’s another lie, but Pompey doesn’t know that. He believes there will be civil war, and doesn’t want to fight it in Italy, so he wants to move to Greece, where the effects of war won’t be visited upon Italians.

This week's readings start with "Pompey sat on his stool without moving while the senators scuttled out of his curia, though he found no joy now in gazing at his own countenance on the curule dais" and continue through the end of the chapter.

Cato's story of finding, then losing, then re-finding Marcia almost makes me sympathetic to him. He mostly seems like such a rabid, stiff-necked fanatic that his humanity doesn't often show through. It's interesting that he was distantly related by marriage to Caesar, his father-in-law Philippus having married Caesar's niece Atia. I guess just about any two men in the senatorial class were related in some way.

I feel so sad for Cato. But at the same time he is so unpleasant. His extreme stoic behavior seems to doom him. I can see him going over and over in his mind the image of Marcia and Hortensius together.

But the thing that is so indicative of his almost obsessive compulsive behavior is the redundancy of his auditing books and the floats for the money chests. What a strange man.

I wonder if Cato was really like that. McCullough really goes to town on the enemies of Caesar. Bibulus is tiny and mean, Cato is a drunk and rather hateful, Brutus is pimply and a money-grubber, Pompey is a tantrumy baby. On the other hand, they are very entertaining.

You made me laugh. Well, her descriptions certainly flesh them out and Cato was a Stoic, with all that self imposed emotional rigor, so I can see it. And Brutus seems like he should be pimply. Ultimately the seemingly petty hatreds reflect politics, which can be very entertaining from a distance.

Indeed, I just wanted to remark that when you mentioned that, the way McCullough describes all these important men of Rome - Cato, Brutus, Cicero, Pompey - they all seem disagreeable, of course, as Caesar's opponents, and yet authoress finds in every of them something redeemable. Brutus is a man hard to like, for an example, yet his story with Porcia is touching. Cicero is funny though - he opposes Caesar, but is also, imagine that, in huge debt to him, what an awkward position to be in :)

In this chapter I found Curio and Marc Anthony the most appealing characters, although Marc Anthony shines only later in the chapter. It's very strange to consider bribe honorable, right, but Curio doesn't sound like a man who would ask the money from Caesar hadn't he deemed him man of honor too. Curio seems flawless so far, not only in relationship with Fulvia, but with his friends too. And his speeches! So sincere, courageous, passionate and clever! I would be proud of him, had I been in the place of Fulvia :)

At the first words of Cleopatra I got literally excited like a little child, oh this tale is getting more and more interesting, I can't wait to read more, although is quite old now, only told in the new style ;) It was interesting to read about treatment of legionnaires after the end of their service, but the whole situation with those Egyptian ones, in which Bibulus had to work with them after they killed his two sons... So strange... no winner in this case.

re: Cleopatra, absolutely! I wonder what it is that after all these millennia, these people still intrigue us. What pull do they have on us? And it is not just film and media, because they intrigued before film was widespread. And McCullough has the great gift of giving us believable personalities for these historic figures. (I especially like that she has given Brutus a churlish personality with mother issues). She has taken them out of their iconic state and given us actual people, whether or not the words and actions are exactly true, they are believable and possible.

This period was filled with amazing characters, probably moreso than any other, except for our Founding Fathers, who were another really interesting bunch. My favorites in the series (although they don't appear in this particular book) are Sulla, Aurelia (Caesar's mom) and Lucius Decumius (a fictional ruffian, extortionist and assassin, who served in loco parentis after Caesar's father died).

I am really intrigued by the political machinations during Caesars absence, and of course things like this had to happen with absences of years. McCullough makes us feel his absence. I keep on wanting to say to Caesar, hurry home!

I also like the relationship between Brutus and Porcia. Rather than seeing him as a truculent little grown boy, it gives him humanity. I didn't know he hadn't been in the army until after Caesar's murder. I tried to find something online after reading Cato's scathing remark to him about avoiding service, but could only find the Battle of Philippi,

I agree with Vicki's list of favorite characters. I would also add Aurelia's uncle Publius Rutilius Rufus.

The political machinations of this section, as I am finishing it late, remind me of the constant references to the impending fiscal cliff in the news these days. Both sides of the aisle sound so much like the boni versus Caesar, unwilling to find middle ground despite the consequences of not doing so. Ah, how history repeats!