Classics and the Western Canon discussion

All the inhabitants of this pocket of circle 8 are guilty of simony, defined thus by the Merriam-Webster Concise Encyclopedia:

"Buying or selling of church offices or powers. The name is taken from Simon Magus (Acts 8:18), who tried to buy the power of conferring the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Simony was said to have become widespread in Europe in the 10th–11th century, as promotions to the priesthood or episcopate were bestowed by monarchs and nobles, often in exchange for oaths of loyalty. Changes in the understanding of the nature of simony and the relationship between lay and religious orders contributed to the perception of the growth of simony, even though corrupt practices did exist. Rigorously attacked by Pope Gregory VII and the reform movement associated with him, the practice recurred in the 15th century, but after the 16th century its more flagrant forms disappeared."

Simon Magus:

Acts 8:9-24
But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles 'hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Hollander's outline:


Summary of Canto: Inf XIX
1-6 the poet's apostrophe: Simon Magus and followers
7-9 the bolgia observed from the bridge
10-12 apostrophe: God's wisdom (seen in His three realms)
13-15 holes of punishment
16-18 simile: baptismal fonts in San Giovanni
19-21 allusion to something done by Dante in the Baptistry
22-27 the sinners' kicking, burning feet
28-30 simile: flame licking an oily surface
31-39 Dante's question, Virgil's offer, Dante's consent
40-45 descent to the bottom of the third bolgia
46-51 Dante, as confessor, questions Pope Nicholas III
52-57 Nicholas takes Dante for Pope Boniface VIII
58-63 Dante's hesitation, Virgil's urging, Dante's consent
64-78 Nicholas's reaction and self-identification
79-87 Nicholas's prediction of the perfidy and death of
Pope Clement V
88-114 the poet's invective against simoniac popes
115-117 his apostrophe of the emperor Constantine
118-120 Nicholas responds with his feet
121-124 Virgil responds with his face and arms
125-132 ascent of the bank to the rim; Virgil sets Dante down
133 view of the next 'valley'

Botticelli's drawing of the simonists reminds me of synchronized swimming.

So much wonderful symbolism. The inversion of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (with flames coming off the feet), Simoniacs stuffed into the rock in contrast to the Rock of Saint Peter on which the church was built, the "succession" of popes in the pouches. I love this canto.

Here in 1300, the set-up for what is to happen with the Reformation 200+ years later. One wonders to what Circle of Hell Luther would have assigned simony.

David wrote: "So much wonderful symbolism..."

Ciardi comments "The oily fire that licks at their soles may also suggest a travesty on the oil used in Extreme Unction (last rites for the dying)."

How well that fits with lines 46-47:

"I stood like a friar who gives the sacrament
to a hired assassin, who, fixed in the hole,
recalls him, and delays his death a moment."

Ciardi adds: "Persons convicted of murdering for hire were sometimes executed by being buried alive upside down. If the friar were called back at the last moment, he should have to bend over the hole in which the man is fixed upside down awaiting the first shovelful of earth."

I find it difficult at times to comprehend the sometimes distance and the sometimes closeness of our own age to that of Dante.

Boy! Dante really really doesn't like corrupt clerics does he? Unlike the pity he felt towards previous sinners, he really let loose on Nicholas.

Sayres makes an interesting note, however, that in its Allegorical sense, simony goes beyond clerics. "A mercenary marriage, for example, is also the sale of a sacrement."

As David and Lily have already noted, the punishment just feels deliciously "right." However, this may be a good place to bring up some misgivings I have been having about contrapasspo for the past few days.

I know that in Purgatorio and Paradiso the spiritual message will probably strengthen as virtuous believers get their own just rewards. But with some of these punishments I wonder if we shouldn't take his words: "O Highest Wisdom...How justly does Your power make awards. (10-12)

As I read some of the punishments I wonder if it isn't also Dante showing us how clever he can be. Removed from its theology, could the whole thing be read as satirical?

Zeke wrote: "...Removed from its theology, could the whole thing be read as satirical? ..."

Smile.

If it hasn't been already, Inferno seems to me a candidate for a graphic novel.

Lily wrote: "Zeke wrote: "...Removed from its theology, could the whole thing be read as satirical? ..."

Smile.

If it hasn't been already, Inferno seems to me a candidate for a graphic novel."

Who wants to see it as a movie? Think what modern CGI graphics could do to make it come to life! If that's the appropriate word for a tale about the dead.

Speaking, as Roger does above, about the living and the dead, i noticed something odd for the first time in this canto. The slopes of the bogia are so steep that Dante cannot manage to maneuver on them. So Virgil carries him. Thus, we have the image of a physical body being carried by a shade. CGI graphics could have a field day with that!

I keep thinking of graphic novels when I view some of the artwork for Commedia. Instead of breaking things up into separate boxes, the artists show progression by picturing the two poets several times in one piece.

The Jason in line 85 is a high priest mentioned in 2 Maccabees, beginning with verse 7 here: http://www.usccb.org/bible/2maccabees/4/

For all his indignation at the corruption of the Popes, Dante maintains respect for the authority of the Church. After he excoriates Nicholas, he continues:

And were it not for the reverence I have
for those highest of all keys you once held
in the happy life-- if this did not restrain me,

I would use even harsher words than these... (Musa)

This got me thinking about Dorothy Day, the twentieth century social justice worker and peace activist. Her newspaper the Catholic Worker, and her outspoken advocacy for the poor and against Viet Nam, put her at odds with the Archbishop of New York frequently.

Still, she always obeyed. On one occasion (I can't recall the issue unfortunately) she was told to stop doing/saying something. She wrote a letter saying that if so ordered she would comply. But she then explained why it would not be in the Church's interest to enforce the edict. She never heard more about it.

This seeming paradox seems to run from Dante's time to our own: recognition of the legitimacy of the institution despite disdain for the actions of its officers.

Zeke wrote: "This seeming paradox seems to run from Dante's time to our own: recognition of the legitimacy of the institution despite disdain for the actions of its officers. ."

It originated with Socrates, come to think of it. Respect and obey the law of the State, despite the abuse of law by those who condemn you unjustly.

Laurele wrote: "I keep thinking of graphic novels when I view some of the artwork for Commedia. Instead of breaking things up into separate boxes, the artists show progression by picturing the two poets several ti..."

It took me a long time to realize that those many people in Sandro Botticelli's drawings are just Dante and Virgil, moving against an eternal backdrop. They can be at multiple places at the same time, because time doesn't change in Hell.

Sidebar: Nemo wrote: "It took me a long time to realize that those many people in Sandro Botticelli's drawings are just Dante and Virgil..."

That technique used to unnerve me, but Botticelli executes it so elegantly in the frescoes on the side walls in the Sistine Chapel. This one of Moses is among my favorites:

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html...

Select "Scenes from the Life of Moses."

[Note the link at the bottom for illustrations from the Divine Comedy. The thumbnails there blow up beautifully on your monitor screen. (I use a 20 inch wide one.)]

The vignettes from Moses's life:(view spoiler)["The Scenes from the Life of Moses is located in the second compartment on the south wall of the Chapel. Botticelli integrated seven episodes from the life of the young Moses into the landscape with considerable skill, by opening up the surface of the picture with four diagonal rows of figures. The scenes should be read from right to left: (1) Moses in a shining yellow garment, angrily strikes an Egyptian overseer and then (2) flees to the Midianites. There (3) he disperses a group of shepherds who were preventing the daughters of Jethro from (4) drawing water at the well. After (5,6) the divine revelation in the burning bush at the top left, Moses obeys God commandment and (7) leads the people of Israel in a triumphal procession from slavery in Egypt." (hide spoiler)]

I first learned of this painting when we were reading Proust: Odette is compared with one of the figures at the well where Moses draws water for their herd. I have since used it and others from the series in Bible studies. These are paired with frescoes of the life of Christ on the opposite wall. (Multiple artists.)

It is sometimes hard for me to realize this is the same Botticelli of Primavera and The Birth of Venus.

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html...

Select "Allegories."

Lily wrote: "Sidebar: Nemo wrote: "It took me a long time to realize that those many people in Sandro Botticelli's drawings are just Dante and Virgil..."

That technique used to unnerve me, but Botticelli execu..."

Wonderful, Lily!

Laurele wrote: "Wonderful,..."

Thank you, Laurel. I figured it was worth a bit of a side step, esp. in case someone here hadn't yet encountered these resources; they seem so magical. Then, I discovered the link to the Commedia illustrations as well.

Zeke wrote: "...Thus, we have the image of a physical body being carried by a shade...."

Good catch! I don't know the capabilities of the graphics to which you refer, but sounds intriguing.

The similar lines I noticed were Virgil's caution to the Geryon:

"Then he called out: 'Now, Geryon, we are ready:
bear well in mind that his is living weight
and make your circles wide and your flight steady."

Canto XVII Lines 91-93

Zeke wrote: "This seeming paradox seems to run from Dante's time to our own: recognition of the legitimacy of the institution despite disdain for the actions of its officers...."

Well framed post, Zeke. And sometimes, the value of the paradox even transcends to individuals, such as the respect and care an offspring may offer a wayward parent -- even with no logical justification other than having received the gift of life.

Zeke wrote: "...could the whole thing be read as satirical? ..."

I'm really interested in this question. According to what I've read I get the impression that he didn't write it satirically because he was making a political and religious point for the denouncement of some of his contemporaries, but does anyone know if he, Dante, ever referred to his own work as satirical? It's an interesting question to me.

Zeke wrote: "This seeming paradox seems to run from Dante's time to our own: recognition of the legitimacy of the institution despite disdain for the actions of its officers. ..."

It would seem that, at least eventually, the reformationists got over these scruples.

Jeremy wrote: "Zeke wrote: "This seeming paradox seems to run from Dante's time to our own: recognition of the legitimacy of the institution despite disdain for the actions of its officers. ..."


It would seem that, at least eventually, the reformationists got over these scruples..."

Sometimes, not deliberately? Not all intended the breeches that eventually occurred. I'll suggest such is often true even for reformers today.

Agreed, Lily. They usually tried to hold things together, but then the differences became so great....

Jeremy wrote: "Zeke wrote: "...could the whole thing be read as satirical? ..."

I'm really interested in this question. According to what I've read I get the impression that he didn't write it satirically..."

There are lots of commentaries on DC, but what are the credible biographies of Dante? Are there ones, or is he too early in history for that?

Lily wrote: "Sidebar: Nemo wrote: "It took me a long time to realize that those many people in Sandro Botticelli's drawings are just Dante and Virgil..."

That technique used to unnerve me, but Botticelli execu..."

Lily, do you happen to know why some of his paintings for the Divine Comedy are colored (in red and blue) but others not?

Nemo wrote: "Lily, do you happen to know why some of his paintings for the Divine Comedy are colored (in red and blue) but others not? ..."

Nope, at least no more than this note at the top of the page of DC illustrations: "For some reason unknown to us, the drawings were never completed. Only four of the surviving 93 sheets - nine having been lost in the course of time - are coloured, although this was presumably the original intention for all of them. The drawings are now in the collections of the Staatliche Museen in Berlin and the Vatican Library."

Lily wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Lily, do you happen to know why some of his paintings for the Divine Comedy are colored (in red and blue) but others not? ..."

Nope, at least no more than this note at the top of the ..."

Thanks. Because I saw the uncolored version first (in the Everyman's Library edition), the color seemed a bit unnatural.

Lily wrote: "There are lots of commentaries on DC, but what are the credible biographies of Dante? Are there ones, or is he too early in history for that? ..."

For the last weeks of this month I ordered: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/96...
After reading it I will probably post a few lines in the Resources thread.

An alternative: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11...

Wendelman wrote: "...I ordered: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/96...
After reading it I will probably post a few lines in the Resources thread...."

Wendel' - thanks! I look forward to seeing what you think of Burge on Dante. His "H&A" has been tempting me. (I had a boss once who identified with Heloise.)

I smiled at this bit of description, given the discussion on these threads, along with Ciardi, on why Virgil is talking about his home town (Canto 20?): "The Divine Comedy really does deal with life, the universe, and everything, as Dante recounts the story of his fictional travels across the universe, from Hell to Heaven." Re: Dante's Invention (That broad view was Ciardi's justification for Dante's writing, too.)

(What does Burke consider "earth" to be on that journey?)

Wendelman wrote: "An alternative: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11......"

I'd have to test to determine if A.N. Wilson's perspectives could be convincing.

Wendelman wrote: "For the last weeks of this month I ordered: Dante's Invention. After reading it I will probably post a few lines in the Resources thread...."

Wendel' -- also, please do note Jeremy's question in Msg 21 above.

@ Lily. If I understand this correctly, you’re wondering if James Burge thinks Inferno could be read as satirical. I don't expect he will, but if so, I will certainly let you know.

Wendelman wrote: "@ Lily. If I understand this correctly, you’re wondering if James Burge thinks Inferno could be read as satirical. I don't expect he will, but if so, I will certainly let you know."

Wendel -- the question is Jeremy's rather than mine, and it triggered the discussion about Dante biography. But, I would phrase it more along the lines of did Dante use satire in writing what is not overall a satirical book, at least not in the sense of others we could name. I.e., I don't think it is a question of reading Inferno as satirical; more, did Dante use satire.

OK. But for now I don’t think the treatment of the corrupt popes in this canto is meant to be comical. It certainly is not ironic, and probably not grotesque. I feel just anger here. There is not much (intended) humour in the Commedia, apart from the burlesque in canto 22.

Wendelman wrote: "...There is not much (intended) humour in the Commedia..."

Apparently enough to give Ethel M. Libis at Stanford a chance to write a 90 page tract. (Smile -- that may be as much a sardonic dig at academic publishing as a comment on Dante's writing. I don't find content on the Web from which to make an assessment and am not interested enough myself to pursue finding a copy.)

http://books.google.com/books/about/T...

I believe Hollander alludes to humor in the lecture I refer to elsewhere in these posts, but, if so, I don't recall that he expanded on the topic.

Satire, of course, is often a rather specific type of humor. In fact, I was just surprised to discover its M-W Unabridged definition opens thus:

"1 a : an ancient Roman verse commentary on a prevailing vice or folly b : a usually topical literary composition holding up human or individual vices, folly, abuses, or shortcomings to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other method sometimes with an intent to bring about improvement [a farcical satire about ... adultery and late-achieved maturity -- Orville Prescott]...."

"satire." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (6 Dec. 2012).

These words do strike me as sarcastic, albeit with angry undertones: “Are you there Boniface? /Are you so sick of owning things already? /Till now, you’ve been hardly afraid to cheat..." But, the sarcasm, while somewhat ironical, is a direct taunt as much as satirical commentary.

Jeremy wrote: "Zeke wrote: "...could the whole thing be read as satirical? ..."

I'm really interested in this question. According to what I've read I get the impression that he didn't write it satirically becaus..."

Jeremy -- take a look at the abstract here. It doesn't directly address your question, but is rather interesting on "the use of political invective in the comic poetry of high and late medieval Italy."

https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xmlu...

I apologize for incorporating so much external material into this discourse, instead of sticking to to Dante's writing and my own reactions, but the discussion here has prompted my research inclinations and it didn't seem to make sense to put the results back into the background thread.

(The learning as I go is about the only way I am able to stay interested in this thing.)

Jeremy -- here is another piece on Dante and Forese Donati from the U of TX that may indeed provide some insight on Dante's attitudes toward the satirical aspects of his own writing: http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/p...

"Forese was a childhood friend of Dante in Florence and a relative of Dante's wife (Gemma Donati). He died in 1296. In their youth Forese and Dante exchanged a series of sonnets (a literary genre known as tenzone), in which they honed their poetic craft by playfully and cleverly insulting one another in the basest terms...."

Salvador Dali Simoniacs

http://www.lockportstreetgallery.com/...

This is the illustration that is convincing me that there is not a direct 1 to 1 correspondence between the number and the canto in Dali's portfolio, even though he has as many illustrations as cantos.

http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/images/...



Gustave Dore. Canto 19. Circle 8. Bolgia 3. The Simoniacs Dante speaks to Pope Nicholas III.

For a bit on Pope Nicholas III:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Nic...

The illustration above is one of those I tend to remember out of the many done for the Inferno.

The photo and short article here on Dore (1832-1853) France is interesting:
http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/gusta...

"Gustave Dore was a prolific engraver, artist, illustrator, and sculptor, working primarily as a wood and steel engraver. He produced over 100,000 sketches in his lifetime, and lived to be 50 years old, averaging 6 sketches per day for each day he lived. By the time he died he had also earned over $2 million, living a life of affluence. Even though he was an untrained, self-taught artist, who never used a live model, and who could not sketch from nature, his work is considered some of the most important in the entire engraving art world....After the death of his mother, who had been his roommate and life time companion, he lost the will to live and died at the age of fifty." (Calls to mind Proust.)

Lily wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Zeke wrote: "...could the whole thing be read as satirical? ..."

I'm really interested in this question. According to what I've read I get the impression that he didn't write it sat..."

this is a bit late me getting back to you, but thank you Lily for those links!

Jeremy wrote: "...thank you Lily for those links!"

Most welcome, Jeremy. Hope one or more leads to info responsive to your original interest.