Debate discussion

Do animals have souls, like humans? What does everyone think on this? Perhaps this will direct some of the off topic conversation on the subject to this thread instead of others...
Thoughts and opinions?

Thanks, we need this.

Well of course they have feelings and emotions and souls. They lick your face when their happy, they whimper when sad, and if you have a dog you can really see into their souls. I'm being serious. I had a dog once. She recently died. When she was dying, I looked into her eyes, I was used to this, so I didn't think much of it. I left for a moment and when I came back I looked into her eyes. There was certain emptiness in them. I immediately knew she died.

Thats very sad Masha. I'm sorry.

I'll be okay, but the point I'm trying to prove is that there was something missing in her eyes, I believe it to be a soul.

I really, uh, don't think so. Maybe they were just glassy because she wasn't alive, and they didn't make expressions like when she was alive.
But I do not want to not be sensitive...thats very sad.

You can't put two negatives in a sentence. Sorry, grammar freak.

It's okay, we are here to debate and I don't want any of my pet deaths to soften you up to me.

I know, I'm just tired. Long day...filled with a five-page paper...Too tired for correct grammar.
Okay no softening I just was trying really hard not to be rude cause I totally disagree.

Okay, back to topic, but are deep emotions not considered souls?

I'm already asoftie....I'm so so so so so sorry about your loss Masha.....T_T

It's okay. Really. She died December 20th 2006 11:45 AM.

5 days before.......Christmas. I'm sorry but I'm tearing up right now......

Oh wow, I don't even think I noticed that...

*wipes tears* Okay well I'm gonna change this sad subject......I think cats have souls too....

Hahahah!!!!!!!

Like a demon in them or something.....they glare when you didnt do a thing!

I don't believ they do. I believe they have likes and dislikes and small memories and enjoy certain things and like when people do certain things to them, but I don't think they love, sin, repent, or think on the same level humans do. Thereefore I don't think they go to heaven or hell because they have no souls, as they cannot do any of those emotions.

They love and they repent. I'm not so sure about sin though... But I don't believe humans sin either,

How do they love and repent? They show affection, by a nudge or lick, but do they love? Do they have physical attraction? And how do they repent?

Well, even though they don't have will power they still feel sorry when they do something, they show up with a sorry look in their eyes and have their tails in between their legs.

And many domesticated animals run into burning building to save their loved ones, a lot of humans don't even do that.

True that!

I believe they do to an extent. I believe that they know right from wrong so long as their master has taught them. For example a dog , hopefully, knows through training that peeing in the house is wrong and so he doesn't do it. I do believe that they sense our emotions. Cats curl up on thier masters chest when they are sick. Well at least mine does....Dogs know when we're sad or lonely or afraid. I don't think they always know why. I know that dogs sense danger, and they remember treats. My old dog Buttons, when she was alive, remembered my cousin as a threat after he kicked her. She always barked and bite at him after that. I think they do feel a certain attraction to certain others of theire species. i believe there are severel birds and wolves take only one mate. And yeah. I don't know about the heaven thing though. That's a good question.

That there is a soul is a dualist idea. To a monist, this question is pointless, because there is no difference or separation between body and mind, they are one and the same.

So, really no one has souls, only bodies.

But one can believe souls exist.

( just saying) Well this is 4 peoples who belive in God or an after life. Do animals have an after life?

hmmmm.....

Liz wrote: "How do they love and repent? They show affection, by a nudge or lick, but do they love? Do they have physical attraction? And how do they repent?"

interesting topic! so liz, are you saying they don't? i'm getting that vibe, but i just wanna make sure......

They can't repent, because they have no concept of sin, because their life is not based on repressing their natural urges.

yah Eliza, i think they don't. but this is not an issue I feel strongly about and I might be convinced otherwise...

i believe they do, but only human souls are immortal- that is, animal souls essentially 'die' with the animal. but as long as their alive, they do have souls. something like that. religion class the other year, i think that's how he put it...

Why? Animals are no less special then us. What made us different?

we have intellects, they don't.... it was bloody complicated, and i essentially slept through half of the explanations, so i'm really not the most fit to argue this opinion haha ;D

I'm arguing this on another group, I'm tired too.

Animals don't really have a conscience. Well they do, but it's on a different level than ours. Animals don't start religion, government, war, or discriminate by race, weight, or job. I sort of imagine God like that.
I'm going to quote Oprah.

"Dogs are my favorite role models. I want to work like a dog, doing what I was born to do with joy and purpose. I want to play like a dog, with total, jolly abandon. I want to love like a dog, with unabashed devotion and complete lack of concern about what people do for a living, how much money they have, or how much they weight. The fact that we still live with dogs, even when we don't have to herd or hunt our dinner, gives me hope for humans and canines alike."
-Oprah Winfrey(complete and utter awesomeness!)

So, yes. I believe animals have souls. In fact, I think they have better souls than us.
And Liz, if you have ever seen Onyx sitting in front of a couch, you know they know the difference between a sin. You know they know how to repent. She looks to each shoulder like there's a demon and angel on each one, like in cartoons. She puts a paw up, then takes it back down. She'll get up onto the couch, and all it takes is a nudge from the angel and she's back on the floor.
:D

Riley wrote: "Animals don't really have a conscience. Well they do, but it's on a different level than ours. Animals don't start religion, government, war, or discriminate by race, weight, or job. I sort of imag..."

Exactly! Animals don't have conscience, religion, government, civilization, language, conflict, and sin. While some of these might be our human flaws, they are what makes us the most developed and intellectual creatures to have ever roamed the planet. These are not all good, but they show we have the capability to think and BE on such a deep level. These animals don't. Just because your pets get some special look in their eyes or lick you or extand their paw doesn't mean they love you. It is perhaps a gesture of remembering that this person is nice to them or a plea to be petted, but they are not as developed as the human race and therefore do not love, fight, gain, sin, repent, govern, speak, pray, laugh, steal, or civilize.

Hmm. Animals don't have "conscience, religion, government, civilization, language, conflict, and sin". Riight.

As for animals not having a conscience, civilization, language, and conflict, I disagree.

Of course animals have a conscience. How else would you train a dog? The dog does something wrong, you yell at it, it regrets the mistake it made, and learns not to make mistakes. That kind of reason shows that it must have some sort of conscience, even if it isn't as deep as that of a human.

In a way, animals also have civilizations. They live in little groups and communities. They have families. They take care of each other.

And of course animals have language. Hello? "Woof"? "Meow"? No, they don't speak in fluent English, if that's what you mean. But the different sounds they make do signify different meanings. Do we understand these meanings? Not always. But when, say, a dog barks at another dog, it evidently means something to both of them that we humans don't understand.

As for conflict, animals go through conflict too. They fight each other for territory, for food, etc.

As for animals not having religion, government, and sin -- well, that's partly the reason why i think they DO have souls. Religion and government are the things that have led us to so many stupid wars. Animals are smart that way.

Lastly, I'm appalled that people could think that animals can't love. Have you ever heard of Koko the gorilla? I'm guessing not. Well, Koko was this gorilla who learned sign language. And she got a pet kitten. The kitten got run over by a car. I saw the video of a woman telling Koko about the death of her kitten, and the gorilla UNDERSTOOD. But more than that, she MOURNED for the kitten. She started crying! And you're going to tell me that this animal had no love???

Ever seen "March of the Penguins"? What about the part where one of the eggs freezes, and the mommy and daddy penguins look down at it and make sad little noises. They UNDERSTAND that there was a baby penguin in that egg, and that it died. You think they have no soul? No love? No conscience?? Sorry, but that's verging on cruel!

Koko the gorilla? I'm guessing not. Well, Koko was this gorilla who learned sign language

I remember that! Good example.

I love March of the Penguins!!!!!!!

brigid, i believe you just said it all. WOOHOO!! GO BRIGID!!!!

*whew* that took a long time to write. lol

Lauren wrote: "Koko the gorilla? I'm guessing not. Well, Koko was this gorilla who learned sign language

I remember that! Good example. "

yay! :) i love koko the gorilla ... i went through, like, a koko the gorilla phase once. lol. i read, like, every book i could find about her. XD

haha yeah she's pretty awesome.

totally! :D

did you know that humans are the only one that cry as a result of emotion. Sometime i think that all animals are almost mechanical like their just programed or wired to do everything they do.

that is not true!! animals may not shed tears, but they do make sad noises.

Are we not animals, abet more advanced? How can you say they're programmed?

exactly!

Human conflict, in no way means that we don't have souls or are stupid. It means we are an advanced species with great intellectual capacity and need for structure, which can sometimes malfunction. But animals don't have nearly as complex thinking and function as humans, which is what leads me to believe they are inferior to us. Then there is the issue of souls. The real question is; what defines a soul?

To me, the answer is;
Love (romantic, maternal, etc.), guilt, sin, repent, trust, and sorrow.

Humans have all of those. But do animals?

The thing I think some people on here are failing to see is that when an animal licks your hand, it DOESN'T mean they are sorry. It means they realize there is something wrong and they have the instinct to figure it out. When an animal looks at you with "sad eyes" it doesn't mean they ahve sinned or feel sorrow or are repenting. It means they realize what is going on and realize it isn't good. When they whine, it can mean a multitude of different things from "look at the ant" to "i'm hungry" to "look at that burning building". It isn't them communicating with human, that isn't how their brains are structured.

Yah Koko learned sign language. Thats cool. So that shows to some extent, the limitations of her brain. I definitely do believe animals can learn and respond. I just don't think they have SOULS.

And please, nobody accuse me of being a heartless animal-hater. My cat sat on my lap as I typed this.

Have any of you gotten the email about the swallows? And how it's mate died? It's called No greater love.

No.

Do you have a counter for my rebuttle?
I like this debate.