Chaos Reading discussion

Discussion opens 20 December 2012 - Palimpsest by Catherynne M. Valente

In the meantime, please to enjoy this great review on iO9:
A Sexually Transmitted City

and
The Official (very gorgeous) Website

and
The author's blog: http://catvalente.livejournal.com/

and
The short story that Palimpsest is based on: Palimpsest Short Story

and
Palimpsest Merchandise, including the album, stunning map corset, even a Casimira Dress! Authors note - THIS is the kind of marketing we like! http://www.catherynnemvalente.com/nov...

I've been wanting to read this for ages, and I think I nominated it for group reads a couple times, so I'm excited to finally get to it. It's loaded up on my kindle and will be next up!

I'm almost halfway through, and it's a much quicker read than I expected. I'm frantically busy in real life right now, so the fact I've made it this far speaks to its readability!

PS - How great is her website? Such good (and stylish) branding.

I read this some time ago, looking forward to discussing it with you.

I am a few chapters in so far, and the language is just intoxicating. Very pleasantly suprised, because initially I thought this was one I would skip out of our December reading. After hearing everyone talk about how great it is, I read a few pages on Amazon and then ordered it.

I started it this afternoon on my commute, so I'm a few chapters in as well. Loving everything about this so far. The language and writing style is really amazing.

Okay - Discussion's open if anyone wants to start. I'm still going, but expect to finish in the next couple of days.

I'll admit, I feel a little seduced by this book. The writer has a kind of "calculating sense of whimsy" - very deliberate and polished. But it absolutely works. I can't deny that I'm completely absorbed in this book!

I just finished it this morning, and I miss Palimpsest already..

Without adding any spoilers to the discussion just yet, I have been thinking a lot about the differences between Valente's approach to fantasy and China Mieville's. I think Mieville always seems more like he is writing for himself than for the reader (and I don't think that's a bad thing). With Mieville, I think it is more - "This is the story. It just is. How you feel about it is up to you." Valente on the other hand seems to very deliberately draw the reader in - from the narrator speaking directly to the reader, to the careful selection of words and imagery obviously intended to charm. This book knows its market and appeals to it directly and self-consciously. When I sense that a writer is trying to manipulate me as the reader, even in a benign way, I generally resist to some degree.
her methods absolutely worked on me in the end, but very much against my will! It wasn't until about 80% of the way through that I fully surrendered. But I loved it in the end. It's one of the few books I can absolutely see myself reading again.

I hate to be fangirling all over the place, but does anyone have the hardcopy of this? Does it happen to have a map of Palimpsest in it? Any other goodies?

I'm trying to give myself an excuse to buy this for myself for xmas :)

Okay, I feel better about myself now. There are people fangirling about this book way harder than I am. Although they're only henna tattoos..
http://theferrett.livejournal.com/124...

I think it's interesting that Ruby brought up the differences between Valente and Mieville, because the whole time I've been reading this novel I've been comparing it to Mieville's writing--the styles are very similar. I think it's also reminiscent of some of Neil Gaiman's work, in terms of the worldbuilding and whatnot.

Love those henna pictures! I'm only about halfway through the book, and I'm already thinking how cool it would be to have a Palimpsest tattoo.

Okay, I've finished it!

I have to admit that while I really enjoyed this, I'm a little torn. The worldbuilding and language is just amazing, and Valente is obviously a very talented writer, but I feel like the concept wasn't executed to its full potential. I had a lot of questions about how the whole thing worked that went unanswered. Maybe that's part of the magic, but I'm much more of a science fiction reader than a fantasy reader and I like explanations! I also found the ending pretty anticlimactic.

This book made me cry a lot. Valente wants to play with emotions like a curious toddler. I personally like that it isn't very explained. I think that would kill some of the magic if it became more clear. The only frustrating thing for me was wanting to slowly admire the language and imagery but quickly get through the story.

I had a few questions about how it worked too, but not enough to irritate me. There was enough of a balance between logic and mystery for me to go with it.

I really wished the tarot cards at the beginning had been more meaningful though. They all just seemed like random, unconnected, ominous-sounding phrases to me, rather than being symbolic of an overall theme like real tarot cards.

Powerispower wrote: "This book made me cry a lot. Valente wants to play with emotions like a curious toddler...." I actually felt the opposite in a way. I felt that Valente was deliberately, almost methodically pushing buttons, rather than being playful or spontaneous. She also ticked quite a few "commercial appeal" boxes: adult fairytale, whimsy, magical realism, sex, steampunk, gothic feel - most of these were touched on fairly gently, but still there.

It was a bit like being seduced by someone who's super attractive but obviously knows it. I resisted for as long as I could, but in the end I totally hit that.

The strange world of Palimpsest pulled me into the novel and the beautiful language kept me moving along. I will say the book increased my vocabulary quite a bit, and I really enjoyed all the references to obscure book related words throughout.

I think Ruby nailed it with describing the whimsy of the book as "calculated" and Ruby, this is dead on: It was a bit like being seduced by someone who's super attractive but obviously knows it. I resisted for as long as I could, but in the end I totally hit that.

The description and whimsy of Palimpsest was great, but eventually a sort of template developed in her descriptions. The description of Palimpsest was beautifully written but it all came off hollow to me, like a mannequin in a fancy evening dress, all dressed up but nothing really there.

The characters are developed quite well (at least our Quarto) but I found it hard to become emotionally attached to them (Oleg's story got me, to a degree). I don't really have a reason for this non-emotional attachment to the characters, maybe it was just the world of Palimpsest took away from the characters, I'm just not sure. I also like how our visits into Palimpsest were spread out, and we have to wait to learn bits and pieces of the city as we go. It drives anticipation of the reader to get back into the city, to find one more partner to take them back.

My other thought about the novel is that it deals with an addiction. All of the characters are addicted to this city, and also through proximity sex. There are many examples of the characters giving up important parts of their lives just to get back to Palimpsest. Although in my opinion, I don't see Palimpsest as this wonderful place, this heaven. Palimpsest has the same problems as we do here, war, murder, crime, it just follows more ritual and is different. Despite the city showing itself to not be the paradise they initially believe, they still would do anything to get back to it. Everyone wants just one more hook up to get one more hit of Palimpsest.

Ben wrote: "My other thought about the novel is that it deals with an addiction..."

Those are some great points. I hadn't thought about the addiction angle, but it's true. I don't doubt I would experience the same addiction in their shoes either, but I wonder what it is that is addictive? Escape? Having something special and secret? Surprise and "magic"? The chance to reinvent yourself?

"The characters are developed quite well (at least our Quarto) but I found it hard to become emotionally attached to them (Oleg's story got me, to a degree)." I felt some sense of attachment to Sei and November, but not so much with the male characters, particularly Oleg. I really wanted him to just move on - although I can see now why he didn't. The rotating between characters made it a little difficult though, as I would forget a character's story by the time the book came back to them!

I hate to be the odd reader out, but I really didn't like it :-(. The premise of the book sounded so magical and exotic, but as I read it, I felt like I was trudging through a lot of beautiful wording, but never really able to get caught up in the storyline itself. Often, I felt like I had no clue what was even going on. I just never really got sucked in.

I ddn't find the plotline difficult to follow, but I sometimes struggled to envisage scenes that she was describing in realistic terms. That said, I read it all in brief stints, late at night!

I rated the book 4 stars, my review was "Brilliant imagery, stylistic, but somewhat confusing plot and structure. That said I'd still recommend the book."

After several months consideration, I'd stick by that review.

Just finally accessing my Kindle notes...

* I love the description of New York (in the real world), how it is worn grey and hollowed out by over-use. What does it matter what we do in a place like that?

* I love the bee imagery: bee golem, "a whore in the kingdom of bees", "The bees tumbled over themselves like golden babies, thrumming wordlessly", bee-crowned saints... gorgeous.

*At one point I wrote, "Sometimes she sacrifices meaning for beautiful words. It's hard to mind."
(She does actually make words up occasionally too. I know, I googled!)

*Sei had never been comfortable in the presence of books. Their natural state was to be shut, closed, to grin pagily from shelves, laughing at her, promising so much and delivering such meanness, such thinness. They displayed only men and women with dead eyes and rituals of living she could not understand. When closed, books gave impressions of perfection. They did not need her. How sad!

*I would have liked to have seen more parallels/symmetry/balance between each of the characters (their lives, imagery, personality etc)

*Does the binding of the 4 with red thread have any meaning in the world's mythology, or is it simply a metaphor for the binding of the characters to each other?

The binding with red thread can be considered a marriage ritual.

Powerispower wrote: "The binding with red thread can be considered a marriage ritual."

Yes, a good friend of mine is Cambodian-Chinese and at her wedding last year, as part of the traditional Cambodian ceremony each guest tied red threads around the wrists of both the bride and groom.

Better late than never, I am finally finished. What a trip. Here is my review.
‘It's been a long time coming. It's going to be a long time gone’. This lyric sums up my experience with Palimpsist. I can’t remember the last time a read a book that actually seemed to fight for its ambiguity. I have been reading fantasy and such for many, many years and this book takes license with time and space in ways that to me are almost incomprehensible.

First, the writer is clearly a poet and applies this to the prose structure. Her world building skills are such that I found myself dreaming of Palimpsest and its’ denizens, human and otherwise. So why was it so hard to get into this story? For me, in the beginning, I could not call up much sympathy for the four would be immigrants. They all seemed bent on some self-destructive path not unlike addiction and I think this point has already been brought up. Palimpsest itself seemed to alternate between wicked, charming, cruel and sympathetic. While it is surely true that cities in the real world exhibit all these characteristics and more, it is also true, for me at least that I had a hard time imagining the seductive power that the city held over the protagonists.

For at least half of the book I staggered along trying to piece things together and then suddenly everything fell into place and I was caught in a race for salvation, for both the four who seek entry and the city itself.

Now that I am finished, images and possibilities crowd my consciousness and I know I will be rereading this book soon to see if there are mysteries I missed that first time around.

Last comments, much has been made of the sexual nature of this book. From the first page I had my own take on that. Like the mystics say, great debasement brings great enlightenment.

Also, the story of November and her place in the wars of Palimpsest, her relationship with Casimira and the final place as queen of the bees was a truly great invention. Four stars.

I loved this book, but I just finished it so the sheen may wear off a bit. I agree that there wasn’t necessarily much below the surface, but I thought that this was intentional. The city is presented as a literal dreamscape. It’s filled with fantastical imagery, which, as you do in dreams, you take for granted. Like Oleg, I wanted to see the photograph showing all of Palimpsest, but I think the strength of the book was in giving you enough glimpses to keep you wanting more, but not so many as to ruin the sense of mystery. Like the characters, we’re visitors in Palimpsest, and there’s lots to see that we won’t necessarily understand.

I like Ben’s observation that the characters were addicted to the city. It seemed to me, especially given the travel arrangements, that the character’s relation to the city was also similar to people’s relation to sex. The experiences of the immigrants in Palimpsest ranged from humiliation and hurt to fulfillment and ecstasy, and everyone longed to go back even when, like Hannah, they only found pain there.

For the first 50 pages or so I did wonder if the prose was going to grow annoying and pretentious, but then like others I was seduced by it. So, how do I get back? (Don’t answer that.)

Whitney wrote: "It seemed to me, especially given the travel arrangements, that the character’s relation to the city was also similar to people’s relation to sex. The experiences of the immigrants in Palimpsest ranged from humiliation and hurt to fulfillment and ecstasy, and everyone longed to go back even when, like Hannah, they only found pain there...."

I love that comment!