The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This is Week Five for Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Five - December 17th - December 23rd -> Chapters FIFTEEN, SIXTEEN, SEVENTEEN, and EIGHTEEN p. 151 - 182

FIFTEEN - Return to the Arena, SIXTEEN - A Struggle for Respect, SEVENTEEN - Lost Cities and Life Counsel, and EIGHTEEN - The Vaunted Scene of Europe

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on November 19th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO RANDOM HOUSE FOR THEIR KINDNESS AND GENEROSITY.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS.

WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus:

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole Thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Welcome,

~~Bryan

by Jon Meacham

Chapter Overviews and Summaries


Chapter Fifteen: Return to the Arena

Jefferson had reached a low point in his life after the death of his wife, but he agreed to go to France and take Patsy with him. However, those plans fell through as John Jay finished the peace treaty. Jefferson was elected to Congress in June 1783 under the Articles of Confederation. Congressmen began to realize that it was not an effective system.

Chapter Sixteen: A Struggle for Respect

Jefferson arrived in Princeton when the government was ready to move to Annapolis. It was a frustrating experience as he tried to get the Treaty of Paris ratified, and it was difficult to get a quorum. He realized that the country needed a stronger national government.

He enjoyed working on the committee for fort fortification where he could indulge in his romantic passion of the West and the unique animal species found there. Jefferson replied to Comte de Buffon that the U.S. did indeed have animal species that rivaled Europe.

Chapter Seventeen: Lost Cities and Life Counsel

Jefferson followed Patsy and Peter Carr's upbringing and education from afar while working in Congress. Jefferson tried to get slavery banned in the lands out West as he worked on the Ordinance of 1784, only to lose by one vote. He got another chance to go to France and join Ben Franklin and John Adams, and he took it. He told Madision to keep him informed of political events and he left overseas on July 5, 1784.

Chapter Eighteen: The Vaunted Scene of Europe

Jefferson became a stronger Francophile while in France. His goals were to get a new commerce and military treaty that would benefit the U.S. and project respect and unity.

Jefferson, William Short, and Patsy arrived in Paris on August 6, 1784. Patsy enrolled in a covenent school, and Jefferson began to experience the culture of France. Tragedy struck in January 1785 when Jefferson's daughter, Lucy (II), died of whooping cough. He now wanted Polly to come to France, too. Franklin and Adams left, leaving Jefferson as French minister. Adams went to London to become the British ambassador, a difficult situation, since relations were still frosty between the two countries.

Meacham argues that TJ was not for state rights or a nationalist at this point, but "whoever was in charge needed to be clearly and certainly in command." (p. 160)

Does this statement surprise you from the things you have learned about TJ coming into this book?

I found it interesting that Jefferson had actually started formulating names for future states. Several very close to the actual future names. Curious if they were geographically the same area i.e Michigania, Illinoia. Likely they were.

Page 156, chapter 15, tells us that, "Jefferson worried about nothing less than anarchy." When we see how precarious and uncertain the early years were, it shows us all the more how much we have to be grateful for to those folks who risked all for the sake of this grand idea...

Bryan wrote: "Meacham argues that TJ was not for state rights or a nationalist at this point, but "whoever was in charge needed to be clearly and certainly in command." (p. 160)

Does this statement surprise yo..."

I think the terms of the debate changed. The Articles of Confederation gave almost no power to the federal government at all. By that standard, Jefferson was a federalist; but he was not so much of a federalist as others of the founding fathers.

David wrote: "I found it interesting that Jefferson had actually started formulating names for future states. Several very close to the actual future names. Curious if they were geographically the same area i...."

Interesting, David, his work in this area is largely forgotten. I'm glad Meacham talks a little about it.

Thanks, Peter and Lewis. It seems from his governor experience, he did learn power to command is so important, especially in uncertain times.

What I like about Meacham's argument is what Peter is saying: TJ is still working out the state & national power structure. We know his later philosophy, but it is interesting to see that it was shifting, molding.

Clayton:

It is a good question. I think this question is better asked in a couple of weeks when TJ is Secretary of State. However, I will move your finance question (as well as Jim's) over to glossary, so others can answer:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

This was an interesting quote that gives us an idea of TJ's stand on religion, telling his nephew about religion:

"'Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.'" (p. 167)

TJ tries again to ban slavery, but as Meacham states, "To have pursued abolition, even when coupled, as it was in Jefferson's mind, with deportation, was politically lethal. And Jefferson was not going to risk everything for what he believed was a cause whose time had not yet come." (p. 169)

This is a very intriguing book and I am enjoying it. As well I am enjoying reading the comments everyone has been making. I have nothing to add, but wanted to let you all know I am here, and following.

Thanks Cynthia for checking in. If you find something interest, feel free to share it with us, even if it is just a quote.

Wow, these were some busy chapters. Seems that we just get a mention of a bit of everything. Of course at times during these years TJ was out of the public eye. I wonder what it was about France that enamored both TJ and Ben Franklin.

You do get a sense of TJ frustrations with the new American. These people were so independent in a sense that any more government was too much government, yet how do you solidify a country out of this independence? It really was a tenuous time for the United States.

I get the feeling that both TJ and Franklin were seduced by the luxury and promiscuity that was aristocratic France (pre-French revolution). That coupled with being justly pissed off at England, knowing France was England's enemy, the enemy of my enemy is my friend kinda thing. I can see it would offend those with more puritanical tendencies like John Adams, who, I'm not sure was a Puritan, but was definitely more conservative than TJ/Franklin.

I think TJ loved French culture and I think this helped shaped how he saw France, too.

And I think Franklin loved French females (and they loved him back).

Bryan wrote: "TJ tries again to ban slavery, but as Meacham states, "To have pursued abolition, even when coupled, as it was in Jefferson's mind, with deportation, was politically lethal. And Jefferson was not ..."

I read J. William Fulbright's (Senator from Arkansas 1945- 1975) book, The Arrogance of Power quite a few years ago, and I have paraphrased a sentence from it so often that I almost changed the meaning, so I looked it up. I find it very appropriate here, especially since TJ is desperate to make the Union viable and respected.

Fulbright says "There are still other areas in which I am proscribed from leadership or initiative by the strong preferences of my constituency."

In Thomas Jefferson's case, his constituency is not only the people of Virginia and the South, but the 'public officers' of that same geographic area. He raised his opposition to the institution of slavery (with his own deportation caveat) but was not willing to push it further, as Meacham explains so well. What a conundrum for those of us in the 21st century. I respect him for his desire to end slavery, but wish he had done more.

by J. William Fulbright

G wrote: "Bryan wrote: "TJ tries again to ban slavery, but as Meacham states, "To have pursued abolition, even when coupled, as it was in Jefferson's mind, with deportation, was politically lethal. And Jeff..."



I don't know if this post belongs here, but here goes!

I thought I might add a note to this discussion on TJ and how he did / did not act on the abolishment of slavery. I think we all suffer from the time differential between then and now. So...
1831 / 1832 the Virginia legislature met to debate the end of slavery (Post Nat Turner rebellion). I think that debate gives us a better understanding of their mind set versus imposing our mindset changed by hundreds of years. The notes on that debate are enclosed and my view it boils down to most decisions made by legislatures, money. The link below is to a small book (online from the Library of Congress) written by Thomas Dew a professor at William and Mary and his review of that debate.

The link: http://archive.org/details/reviewofde...

Jim, some of this material jumps ahead of this week's reading. But money certainly
Played a role.

Thomas R Dew

There are lots of little gems in this section, I hope Meacham will expand on these as we go along, such as: TJ's interest in botany (p. 167) and his attachment to both Peter Carr and William Short as “adoptive” sons (p. 169). From time-to-time, Meacham’s prose includes a delightful turn of phase. I particularly liked, “His sojourn to France is often seen as a revolutionary swoon. . .” (p. 179).

One of the strongest points of this book is that it really gives the reader a feeling for the shakiness of the political system. The Articles of Confederation government couldn't tax or raise an army and had no executive or judiciary. Congress had to evacuate Philadelphia due to soldiers' riots over pay. When it came time to ratify the Treaty of Paris, Congress had a terrible time coming up with a quorum.

We tend to think of our present form of government as a foregone conclusion, and it was anything but.

I think the Meacham lets Jefferson off way too easy on the issue of slavery because it does not fit in with his theme of Jefferson as a great political leader. I have been reading Jefferson's comments in Notes on the State of Virginia (See http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founde... on the supposed innate inferiority of blacks and their childlike qualities. This serves as a justification for holding them in bondage. He deplores slavery primarily because of its effects on the white owners rather than the slaves themselves.

Meacham notes that Jefferson was in favor of outlawing slavery in the new territories, but that would not have effected his own economic well-being.

He implies that Jefferson would have advocated general emancipation but for the impossibility of getting it passed. I don't think so.

Actions speak louder than words. According to the Monticello organization: "He freed two slaves in his lifetime and five in his will. Three others ran away and were not pursued. (Still others successfully ran away despite pursuit.)

All ten freed with Jefferson's consent were members of the Hemings family; the seven he officially freed were all skilled tradesmen. About 200 slaves were sold at estate sales after Jefferson's death."
(See http://www.monticello.org/site/planta...)

Four of those freed by Jefferson are reputed to be his children with Sally Hemings. Three others were her brothers. The Hemings had a lot of white blood. Jefferson believed that white blood diluted the inferiority of blacks.

Thanks, Ann.

I'm reading by Henry Wiencek
and it's a little further along in the exploration of TJ's reasoning for not pursuing the slavery issue . . . the contention being that it was too profitable for him to give up their labor. It was definitely cheaper for him to train his slaves in a particular job . . . than it was for him to have to pay a craftsman to do the tasks. And with his particular skills for numbers was able to calculate just how much profit he would make every time a slave child was born. He had a plan for just what kind of labor he could get from each age group and how much effort was required by each of them to turn a profit for his plantation.
And as for the morality issue . . . TJ was not at the plantation that much so depended on others to manage the activities and send him reports. That provided him with a great cushion against any possibility of mental anguish caused by any prickling moral thorns. And if production fell . . . the discipline was administered by someone else. TJ was a pro at compartmentalization and that allowed him a great deal of leeway between any scruples and the practicality of running the plantation.

Ann wrote: "I think the Meacham lets Jefferson off way too easy on the issue of slavery because it does not fit in with his theme of Jefferson as a great political leader. I have been reading Jefferson's comm..."

I agree. This may be an example of what psychologists call the "halo effect", which is well-documented in many fields. Once we have a good opinion of someone or something, we tend to view *all* aspects of that person or thing more favorably.

Good point about TJ not being at Monticello or his other plantations so much. That, and his lenient (even generous by the standards of his time) treatment of most of the Hemings family who served as household slaves, helped in the compartmentalization.

As historians have pointed out, 4 out of 5 of the first presidents were slaveholders, and Washington was the only one to free his slaves. Washington did not have biological children, so he did not have to worry about impoverishing them. TJ had his daughter's family to worry about. Unfortunately, his spendthrift ways left her with very little even after the slaves and Monticello were sold.

Isn't Washington considered one of the richest presidents err. What he left host step children was quite a legacy a d some money. He did accumulate much if it with his marriage to the widow Martha Custis.

It is fascinating to read how ineffective Articles were and the problems it caused internationally. Imagine one member sick and something doesn't pass or it doesn't meet quorum. Even worse some states did not even show up to congress.

Indeed, Gabriel. It must have been very frustrating to try to get any work done when you can't get a lousy quorum.

I was struck by his bellicose attitude towards the pirates. That was not my impression of his general attitude toward problem solving.

Having lived in southern France for 10 months a couple of years ago I can confirm it is still a delightful place.

Sometimes I think that Jefferson hated to leave (smile) and I guess you did too (smile).

Patricrk wrote: "I was struck by his bellicose attitude towards the pirates. That was not my impression of his general attitude toward problem solving.

Having lived in southern France for 10 months a couple of ye..."

Yeah, it is an surprising reaction to the pirates, not at first look. But he did break from the past where nations just paid the bounty.