The Malazan Fallen discussion

Chapter 5 thread.

Spoilers up to chapter 5 are ok. Please mark any other spoilers, using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them)

Enter Darujhistan and the folks we were just getting to know are entirely absent. We have a silent war on the assassin's guild and a young thief who finds himself in the wrong place at the wrong time but who seems to have luck on his side. We get our first PoVs from outside the Empire. Kruppe is a strange character to introduce us to D'stan; is he a madman or a prophet? He seems to have some sensitivity to the workings of the gods because he also is aware of the spinning coin.

How are folks managing the transition? I think this one is a little harder than the one between ch 1 and 2 because we're not even in the same Empire and this world of political intrigue, thieves, assassins and city life seem a million miles from the war of Pale.

Yes, another whole new cast of characters! And Kruppe, he is an odd one :)

However, the coin has finally dropped !
I loved it when Crokus flashed through his Uncle's room, throwing a quick hello as he passed by. Also liked the 'Monkey Road' he used during his escape.

It's the first of Kruppe's dreams! I have missed them....

I love how he knows the hanging figure is his humility and isnt needed here....

That whole thing with Kruppe confused the hell out of me. The stuff on the rooftop wasn't much better. I have no idea who the hunters are or what is going on.

Hopefully the next chapter helps, because this one was a bit frustrating for me.

Rob wrote: "The stuff on the rooftop wasn't much better. I have no idea who the hunters are or what is going on."

Hang in their Rob. I remember having these feelings. The Aha moment for me came when I managed to work the rooftop business out for myself later in the book before its spelled out. It was very rewarding. It was when the penny dropped that Erikson was giving me permission to speculate and providing clues for me to work out myself. I don't think you have enough info yet so don't think you're supposed to know yet.

I gotta say, I hate Kruppe as a character, and he's the only one in this book I don't like.

Love Crokus as always, though.

Rob wrote: "That whole thing with Kruppe confused the hell out of me. The stuff on the rooftop wasn't much better. I have no idea who the hunters are or what is going on.

Hopefully the next chapter helps, bec..."

This is one of those head scratching chapters the first time through. Like David said, hang in there and keep it in the back of your mind.

HA even my 2nd read I was confused because I had forgotten what came later! I reread that section and then went on knowing in Steven we could trust.

Kruppe was always confusing for me. I never really understood where his full allegiance lies. I always love reading about thieves and assassins in fantasy. Some of the best and most exciting scenes IMO.

Travis wrote: "Kruppe was always confusing for me. I never really understood where his full allegiance lies. "

Ah, well that is exactly what Kruppe's dream in this chapter is all about. Kruppe trying to decide where his loyalties lie.

But here we go -

AN INTRODUCTION TO KRUPPE

"And if this man sees you in his dreams,
while you rock in the season's
brooding night
'neath a tree's stout branch,
and your shadow is hooded
above the knotted rope,
so will the winds of his passing
twitch your stiffened limbs
into some semblance of running ..."

In other words - if Kruppe see you swinging in his dreams - you probably better run.
Because Kruppe has a talent

For some, the talent they possessed found its channel through a toss of knucklebones, the reading of heat fractures in scapulae, or the Fatid of the Deck of Dragons. For Kruppe, he had no need of any such affectations. The power of divination was in his head and he could not deny it, no matter how hard he tried. Within the walls of his skull rang the dirge of prophecy, and it echoed through his bones.


We start the chapter in one of Kruppe's dreams. In his dream Kruppe is high tailing it out of Dodge...sorry Darujistan. He's felt the portents of doom as described in the first poem of this chapter and he's trying to convince himself

In times of conscience he held the world's concerns above his own. Fortunately, he reflected, such times were few, and this, he told himself, was not one of them.
and

Such times are upon us when the wise man must choose. Is it not wisdom to conclude that other lives are of less importance than one's own? Of course, very wise. Yes, Kruppe is wise.'

In other words - Kruppe reasons the wise decision is to value your own life first above everyone else.

Note Kruppe hears the spinning coin

Kruppe is certain. No more than that, surely. Yes, as certain as an ever-spinning coin – but who spoke of coins? Kruppe proclaims his innocence!' In other words "what's the coin doing here. I didn't dream it!"

Kruppe ends up climbing a hill to an Inn where he meets a few fellows who he immediately understands are different aspects of himself.

'Kruppe has always considered you mere aspects of himself, a half-dozen Hungers among many, as it were. Yet, for all your needs, you would urge what of your master? That he turn back from his flight, of course. That one's own skull is too worthy a chamber for deception to reign – and yet Kruppe assures you from long experience that all deceit is born in the mind and there it is nurtured while virtues starve.'

Kruppe is accusing his guests of being the evil sides of himself trying to trick him into going back and facing what's coming - instead of doing the virtuous thing which he has decided is running away. To which the spokeman of himself answers

The spokesman accepted a slice of bread and smiled. 'Perhaps we are your virtues, then.'

Kruppe of course knows this because he is after all talking to himself and he is on the brink of decision

'The Coin spins, Kruppe, still spins.'

And here we come to whose side Kruppe has to choose or not choose

'Perhaps we are your Doubts,' the spokesman said, 'which you have never been afraid to face before, as you do now. Yet even we seek to turn you back, even we demand that you strive for the life of Darujhistan, for the life of your many friends, and for the life of the youth at whose feet the Coin shall fall.'

To which Kruppe finally decides

'Shall Kruppe accept this challenge, then? What are gods, after all, if not the perfect victims?' (bold words and shows us that Kruppe doesn't need a Deck of Dragons to know he's up against the gods - and then proceeds to berate said gods on their arrogance) He smiled, raising his hands and fluttering his fingers. 'For Kruppe, whose sleight of hand is matched only by his sleight of mind? Perfect victims of confidence, claims Kruppe, ever blinded by arrogance, ever convinced of infallibility. Is it not a wonder that they have survived this long?'


And after he decides

'Perhaps we are your Gifts, then. Wasting away, as it were.

This explains why Kruppe was in such a dilemma. Kruppe has been living it up, lazing away, getting fat, happy as a pig in shite, prefers it that way - but now its time to put his talent to work.

I thought this was funny

Kruppe's eyes narrowed on the man. 'Kruppe is too clever by far,' he muttered.


His eyes travelled among the beggars. All seemed to have gained weight, a healthy robust colour to their upturned faces.

All Kruppe's virtues and talents are looking healthier already.

Except for the hanging man which Kruppe tells

You are Humility but, as everyone knows, Humility has no place in Kruppe's life, remember that. So here you will stay

Humility indeed, as Maggie pointed out, is one virtue Kruppe happily sees he does not need to pander to.

Interspersed through there we get a whole lot more in gags and a few fat jokes - I loved it.

Rob wrote: " I have no idea who the hunters are or what is going on."

Now I've actually reread the chapter - No, we have no idea yet who the hunters are. Even Talo, the assassin who gets killed and who is a member of the Assassin's guild doesn't know who they are. But there appears to be four of them. They use magic. They know an Ascendant interfered with them killing Crokus. And they know how to kill Ascendants as we see in this conversation

The two were silent for a moment, then the first hunter sighed worriedly. 'All in all, too awry to be natural.'
The other agreed. 'You felt the parting too, then.'
'An Ascendant ... meddled. Too cautious to show itself fully, however.'
'Unfortunate. It's been years since I last killed an Ascendant.'

They are badass in other words. Working this out myself was pretty fun the first time round. One of the few things I figured myself - I missed a lot of everything else.

First thanks, for your detailed write-up on the Kruppe part David. It makes it a lot less obnoxious.

I think I was so confused/put off by that part to start book 2 that it put me in a bad way for the rest of the chapter. In retrospect, I was fine with the second half.

I wasn't confused by that part so much as it left me with a lot of questions, but that's OK.

I'm curious about the interference (help?) of Oponn for the thief (Crokus?) to live/get away. Why they wanted to help him will be interesting to discover.

I loved this chapter for the rooftop action. I hope there's more of this - assassins and thievery! I really got into this. Although I may have to read the bit about Kruppe again! What was that? I see the comments mention it was a dream with some deeper meaning. And am I the only one that doesn't know the significance of the spinning coin! The best I can work out is it has something to do with gods or a higher power. Enjoying this book more now.

Jamie wrote: "And am I the only one that doesn't know the significance of the spinning coin! The best I can work out is it has something to do with gods or a higher power. ."

From previous chapters we know the spinning coin is related to Oponn the male/female god dealing with luck.

There has been a descent bit of discussion relating to them, the coin, the deck, and their involvement with restoring Paran to life.

You may want to re-read the chapter 3/4 discussion on those.

I look forward to reading more about the assassins. There definitely is more to them than meets the eye - as David noted, they use magic and are able to determine that an ascendant interfered.

I wonder however, what their commander knows, since she decides to let Crokus go. Normally witnesses are an obstacle, but she says that it might be useful to their efforts. While the hunters don't appear to know who meddled, does she? I'm also hung up on the last phrase;

The two hunters put away their weapons. The first glanced back at the inn and asked, "Who protected him, do you think?"
The second hunter snarled. "Someone with a sense of humor."

What is the hunter referring to?

As for the opening sequence with Kruppe, I will have to reread that section. I didn't grasp what happened at all; I wasn't able to focus entirely when I read it.

Kat wrote: "I didn't grasp what happened at all; I wasn't able to focus entirely when I read it. "

Yeah. That about sums it up for me.

Kat wrote: "What is the hunter referring to?"

Perhaps it refers to the fact that Crokus should have been so easy to catch and kill yet appears to make fools of them.

However, there was one part of Kruppe's dream where he sees people dunking cats and he doesn't understand the significance of that.

Similarly clad women stood by the muddy well, pausing in their endless dunking of cats – a bemusing activity, its symbolism lost on the man as he hurried past.

then during the chase

An instant later someone crashed down into the garden below. Cats shrieked and a voice groaned out a single pained curse.

and

'What happened to you?' the first hunter asked quietly, in its native tongue.
'Had an argument with a cat.'

David Sven wrote: "Travis wrote: "Kruppe was always confusing for me. I never really understood where his full allegiance lies. "

Ah, well that is exactly what Kruppe's dream in this chapter is all about. Kruppe try..."

Mr. Sven, I bow to your superior knowledge of all things Kruppe. I myself find Kruppe rather frustrating if I try to concentrate so I end up just letting his spiel wash over me and try and pick up on atmosphere rather than understanding. However, if you continue to write up his ramblings so well I will continue to read avidly.

@Chaz. Ha Ha! I just remember when reading this the first time how all these dreams and poems and rubbish were getting in the way of a good story. I didn't realise how much I was missing. Now it all stands out. But first time round it's really hard to figure out where Erikson is coming from and by the time I found out I has already forgotten the bits I glossed over.

Oh, right. I forgot the cats, but they seem important. You're right.

haha, loving Kruppe. i always like a 'madmen' who talks to himself and about himself in the third person.

Kruppe happens to be the most interesting character in Darujhistan - at least, for me.

Kat wrote: "Oh, right. I forgot the cats, but they seem important. You're right."

Well, there are only two(I think) elements of the dream that are not some aspect of Kruppe himself - The spinning coin, and the cats - And they pretty much amount to the same entity.

I think the cats might be a gag for later. I was racking my brain, knowing Erikson doesn't waste words - so when cats interfere with the chase later on - ahh. I can't remember if they have any significance beyond that.

We'll see, I guess. They could be a symbol of some kind.

haha, loving Kruppe. i always like a 'madmen' who talks to himself and about himself in the third person.

Hanne, when you meet my favourite character you are going to LOVE him. But we don't meet him till the next book.

or the cats could just be some random event, SE does that to you :)

Lee wrote: "or the cats could just be some random event, SE does that to you :)"

Yeah, sometimes Erikson puts things in to have a laugh. I like the idea that the spinning coin is in Kruppe's dream and maybe the cats are Oponn's little giggle.

Lee wrote: "Hanne, when you meet my favourite character you are going to LOVE him. But we don't meet h..."
Cool - i can't wait!

David Sven wrote "Yeah, sometimes Erikson puts things in to have a laugh."...

seriously? This is a very troubling aspect. I know that there are times I find dialog quite laugh out loud funny, but I had a theory I mentioned to my wife this morning (she started the group read last night) that everything SE writes has a purpose; there is no arc left unfinished.

My first time through, this was the only chapter I struggled with. I had no idea what was going on, much less so than before, and I didn't have the knack yet for Kruppe who's kind of an acquired taste.

This time, I absolutely loved it. Kruppe makes me laugh harder than anyone and it's great to be back in his head and dreams.

Steve wrote: "David Sven wrote "Yeah, sometimes Erikson puts things in to have a laugh."...

seriously? This is a very troubling aspect. I know that there are times I find dialog quite laugh out loud funny, bu..."

I don't know about "unfinished". I agree that everything SE writes has meaning and informs a larger world but he doesn't always explicitly explain his stuff which is one of the things I love about it.

Steve wrote: "but I had a theory I mentioned to my wife this morning (she started the group read last night) that everything SE writes has a purpose; there is no arc left unfinished. "

Oh. Don't get me wrong. I totally agree with that. When I say "to have a laugh" I don't mean frivolously or randomly. And you still have to be paying attention to get rewarded with the punch line. So when I saw the cats in the dream it bugged me that I couldn't figure it out - but then neither could Kruppe. But then during the chase immediately afterwards - Oponn uses a pussy cat to take down a badass magic wielding assassin - I was happy again.

I truly get the impression that Erikson doesn't waste words - For example, when a character corrects themselves I am pretty confident Erikson is giving us a cue.

Chaz wrote: "I don't know about "unfinished"..."doesn't always explicitly explain his stuff"..."

I only got as far as the 7th book before this group started, and I found many times something akin to this:

mild series teaser (view spoiler)[Book 3 has a continuation of an arc introduced in Book 1 that finally (at least up to that point) is resolved in Book 6. repeat many times. There are probably more instances where I missed this, but it too is something I loved about this world. I just assumed by the end of the last book most (of the arcs I can remember at least) would be resolved. (hide spoiler)]

Steve wrote: "Chaz wrote: "I don't know about "unfinished"..."doesn't always explicitly explain his stuff"..."

I only got as far as the 7th book before this group started, and I found many times something akin ..."

The best one I thought was completely just for laughs was one that showed in The Crippled God (view spoiler)[ the freaking dogs, Bent and Roach, show up again and kind of play a big part, but not really. (hide spoiler)]

"In times of conscience he held the world's concerns above his own. Fortunately, he reflected, such times were few, and this, he told himself, was not one of them."

Love this!

Just have to wonder how many times the world won out over himself? Not many.

Something I missed during my first read of this book was that Ascendants can die, and now we know a couple of mystery people who can actually kill Ascendants. Heavy stuff.

David, thanks for explaining Kruppe's dream sequence. That made alot things clearer.

Key point about the hunter/assassin's for me is that Erikson refers to them as "the hunters," and to one of them as "it." So not only are they badass, but it's doubtful that they are human.

The passage is here: "The crossbow lay cradled in its arms. The second hunter arrived, sheathing two long-knives as it came alongside the first."

A guild war may have started in the city among the assassins, who are said to rule the city by night. And it looks like these hunter/assassins have started the war. But it's not at all clear that the assassins belong to the Guild, or even to the city.

Oh - I didn't pick up on that at all, but that made things a lot more interesting! What could they in that case be? Curious!

I'll keep an eye out for more info.

I feel the same Duffy. I don't buy that it is the Empires Claw in town. They seem non-human to me, they 'feel' ancient, especially when they are talking about the Gods interceding.

@Duffy - Good pick up. Another question to ask is - Why do they decide to let Crokus go for now? How does doing so serve their interests? What do they think or want or expect Crokus to report?

Since I don't remember this part all that well, I will venture a guess based on what we've read. They want to disrupt the power centers of the city. They are doing this among the assassin guild by starting a guild war, or making it look like a guild war has started, in the hopes that it will ignite one. Letting Crokus go as a witness will speed the rumors that some assassins are killing others.

@ Lee

I agree. They do have an ancient feel to them, and that particular exchange of comments enhances it.

@ David

I thought about why the commander made that call. The hunters are intent to shut him down, but they still await their commander's arrival before suggesting to pursue him further. She, however, sets her foot down. Could it be that she knows who meddled and why they should let him go? Is there something in particular about Phoenix Inn itself, is it a place of importance?

They chase Crokus down through other buildings and across the city - but once he enters the inn they stop, and wait for their commander, who decides to let him slide. Crokus also relaxes once he has entered the inn - he feels safe; he leans his back to the door and even removes his disguise (= he is certain the chase will end here). He must've known they still were onto him - so what makes him feel safe once he's entered the inn? If it's an ordinary inn - wouldn't he still be on his toes, and wouldn't they simply follow him and take him out?

@ Duffy

Also a sensible, and easy, explanation.

@Duffy - I think you are right.

@Kat - I suspect tthe hunters wanted to remain covert - Crokus saw them so they needed to silence him. Barging into a public Inn probably isn't a very covert thing to do. And the commander say...

The commander glanced at the door of the Phoenix Inn. Then, to the hunters, she said, 'No. The wagging tongue of a witness might be useful to our efforts.'

I think Crokus, like the assassin who was killed, Talo, would assume a guild war. And the commander is fine with that assumption getting out.

All very very good questions Kat.
I love the way you're looking at this from all angles. I wish I read my first read a bit slower with more time to digest and discuss. I am envious that this is all new for you.

@ David

Yes, I suppose that's an option too. Easy and sensible explanation.

@ Lee

Hehe, yeah - I don't think I'll be able to stick to the schedule, though. When I read a novel I like I want to be sucked into it, and that's not possible when reading it slowly, so I'm afraid my questions possibly will fall away from the forum since I won't be able to ask them as I read ahead (the discussion threads open per week and I can't enter the common discussion thread without reading spoilers) :)

Kat wrote: "Hehe, yeah - I don't think I'll be able to stick to the schedule, though. When I read a novel I like I want to be sucked into it..."

This is my second time through books 1-7, and I am STILL like that with this series as heavy and dense as it is. My first time through I would be up until 2, 3 AM reading :)

Yeah sorry Kat, I am going to be strict on opening discussion threads at the right times. You'll just have o come back to threads to visit us :)