The Malazan Fallen discussion

Chapter 6 thread.

Spoilers up to chapter 6 are ok. Please mark any other spoilers using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them)

Chapter 6 and we get a few more perspectives and there is so much going on. As well as the assassin war we have Council intrigue and plots, a vendetta now affecting the highest levels of politics, a spy ring led by the mysterious Eel, the city actually run by an alchemist (as inferred by C'man Orr, Crone and Rake), we meet the lord of Moon's Spawn for the first time up close and we have a group of friends which includes a thief, an assassin, a noble, a drunk and Kruppe, who seems to defy classification.

How good is this scene between Baruk and Rake? I love how differently the Malazans, the Daru (Orr, Baruk etc.) and Rake all view the events of the siege at Pale. For Rake, Pale and he were betrayed by the mages of Pale and now he wants his revenge; the Malazans are most concerned with betrayal amongst their own ranks and where it may have come from and the Daru are overawed by stories of the strength and unquenchable hunger for conquest of the Malazans.

BTW, Baruk seems extremely disturbed by Rake's sword. Admittedly it is 6.5 feet long and emanates with powerful sorcery but Baruk seems to have some insight that being executed by that would be a fate worse than death so that him offering up the heads of the mages of Pale is an act of mercy.

Why did Rallick Nom change his target at the last second? He seems to have heard something and then come with a new and highly complex plan in an instant:

He froze. A whirring, spinning sound filled his head [a spinning coin?] , whispering words that left him bathed in sudden sweat. All at once everything shifted, turned over in his mind. His plan for quick vengeance tumbled into disarray, and from the ruins arose something far more...elaborate.

Is this god interference again?

Also: "I dispatched the Claw when they were but a dozen steps inside the walls."

Rake, you badass.

Lots of political intrigue in Dura, guilds and politicians all playing their little games, they almost seem oblivious to the war heading their way.

Love Rake! And he makes someone like Baruk nervous. I was surprised how fast he turned my viewpoint about the battle at Pale - here I was thinking he was a bad guy, then when I see it from his viewpoint he almost seems like a hero standing up for the everyday man - who, it seems, deserted him, left him alone to fight the battle -well, the mages anyway. I wouldn't want to be those mages now.
How cool is the Crone? Oh, I do like her.
I can't even guess who Eel might be. Maybe I haven't met Eel yet. Maybe Eel is the fair maiden who's jewels were so heartlessly stolen ;) Or her father - don't think I've met him yet?
And Lady Simtal, don't know yet where she fits in.
Wondering how many more chapters I have to read before I meet all of the main characters for this book!

There are so many great characters in this book already. At first my vote for coolest character went to "Sorry" and then Whiskeyjack and now Rake.

I'm finding it hard to put this book down even though the amount of things going on are overwhelming me at points, I'm glad I tried this book, so far about 250 pages in and it's the best start to any fantasy book I've read. On the other hand it's not helping my sleep.

Well this chapter didn't frustrate me like the last one. But it only added to my questions rather than shedding any light on the previous chapter.

I remember the ominous feeling I got when I first read that beheading the mages from Pale would be a mercy, compared to being dispatched by Rake's sword. I agree whole-heartedly with it.

I take back my initial impressions a little. You do gain a bit of insight on the whole assassin thing on the rooftop, you find out it seems to be some external force rather than an internal war.

Then again I sort of suspected that to begin with considering they seemed to be using magic.

And I didn't catch that about Rake's sword being so scary.

Rob wrote: "Well this chapter didn't frustrate me like the last one. But it only added to my questions rather than shedding any light on the previous chapter."

Welcome to Malazan!

Maggie wrote: "Rob wrote: "Well this chapter didn't frustrate me like the last one. But it only added to my questions rather than shedding any light on the previous chapter."

Welcome to Malazan!"

lol. thanks.

Is this what chapter everyone is on? im going to catch up with everyone. I decided to give it a try my boyfriend has been hounding me to read this, I honestly dont think I'l manage it but I'l give it a go.

Lucy wrote: "Is this what chapter everyone is on? im going to catch up with everyone. I decided to give it a try my boyfriend has been hounding me to read this, I honestly dont think I'l manage it but I'l give ..."

Hi Lucy - There are 4 chapters a week and 4 threads are usually opened up at the beginning of the week - so we are on the second week at the moment. So this is where we are up to yes.

I really need to practice giving one line answers.

Haha thanks David :)

Linette wrote: "I was surprised how fast he turned my viewpoint about the battle at Pale - here I was thinking he was a bad guy, then when I see it from his viewpoint he almost seems like a hero standing up for the everyday man - who, it seems, deserted him, left him alone to fight the battle -well, the mages anyway. I wouldn't want to be those mages now. "

This is what makes this series so interesting to me. There are plenty of characters who are shades of gray, as opposed to distinctly black or white. One minute you hate them, the next you love 'em.

OK, found out what happened in Pale (well Rake's version anyway, which differs a bit from Tayschrenn's). I've read these books before. I should know to be patient and wait for information to be gradually fed to the reader.

I love Erikson's humour. Baruk's estate has decorative murder holes in the gate. How quaint!

Also Rake's sword. He must have very long arms to be able to pull a 6.5 foot sword out of its scabbard on his back. Then again he is a powerful Mage.

One thing that I found surprising is that Crokus was apprenticed to Kruppe. I can't see Kruppe sneaking about on the roof's, I guess he is retired ;)

Kruppe's mask of blissful idiocy never dropped, not even for an instant—all through the years when Crokus had been apprenticed to the fat man in the art of thievery, he'd never seen Kruppe act otherwise.

There has been information about the Assassins guild. There seems to be a number of clans, with an overall leader called Vorcan, a female assassin. Rallick seems to be a bit of a renegade, known by the clans and (tolerated?), but doesn't seem to belong to any one clan.

I love Erikson's humour

I just knew that Councilman Orr was going to pat Crone's head as soon as she said she would appear as a dog.

Crone just sounds like a great character. It was interesting to read that the great ravens were drawn to sorcery and that being in its aura added hundreds of years to their lives. I guess living on Moons Spawn must give them quite the long life expectancy.

@Lee - that Crokus was apprenticed to Kruppe made me smile too. What did he train him to steal? Cupcakes? But Crokus seems pretty good at what he does. And Kruppe is more than he appears - and that's saying something.

I also like the scene in the inn where Kruppe is playing cards. It took me a few moments to realise that the first speaker was Kruppe himself.

I liked Crones prophecy or anti-prophecy as she leaves.

'I see twelve ships riding a deep harbour,' she said. 'Eleven stand tall in flames.'
Baruk stiffened. He had not anticipated a prophecy. Now he was afraid. 'And the twelfth?' he asked, his voice barely a whisper. (the twelfth being Darujhistan)
'On the wind a hailstorm of sparks fill the night sky. I see them spinning, spinning about the last vessel.' Crone paused. 'Still spinning.' Then she was gone.

Baruk's there eagerly awaiting to hear the fate of Darujhistan and Crone pauses and ends with "still spinning." Gotcha. Poor Baruk, you just got burned by a Raven!

Also interesting that Crone is a thousand years old - due to the fact she soaks up sorcery. Which is why Barak's wards are ineffectual and when he opens his warren Crone is like - "wasting your time dude. I eat magic." (My paraphrase)

Loved Rakes appearance - Enter the...Rake.


Again we get a lot of information. The thing I like about Erikson, he thinks up any conceivable question the reader might have or should have and addresses it. And Erikson, through Baruk asks some questions the reader might have regarding the events at Pale - such as If Rake is so badass, how come he abandoned Pale to be slaughtered?

So Rake's version of events, which I have no reason to doubt

'When the Moranth army came down from the mountains, and Tayschrenn rode at the head of his wizard cadre, and when word spread that an Empire Claw had infiltrated the city,' Rake's smile twisted into a snarl, 'the wizards of Pale fled.'

Rake goes on to explain that if the wizards had stayed then they could have repelled the attack. The Pale wizards were not so confident it appears.

Rake had also expalined 'I cannot defend an entire Moon. I cannot be everywhere at once.'

and

'I've committed my sorcerers and warriors to Brood's north campaign.' He turned a humourless grin on Baruk. 'Within my city are children, priests and three elderly, exceedingly bookish warlocks.'


In other words - Rake could probably have wiped the floor with the Malazans - but without backup he couldn't do it and save Moon Spawn - The Tiste Home with Tiste civilians ie children inside.

So he made the hard decision - no choice really for a leader - His first priority was to his own people.
But he then proceeds to pursue the cowardly wizards who he holds responsible for Pale - kills all but two - who happen to be in Pale (which is why I believe Rake's story - where were these wizards when the heat was on?)- and their heads become a condition of this new alliance.


So to summarise by expanding and making a long story longer

Rake makes alliance with Pale wizards.
Malazans show up, are outmatched by Rake and wizards and proceed to set up camp where they sit on their arses for a couple years.
Rake can confidently send his army including all his high power wizards off to support Caladan Brood - because he and the Pale wizards have things covered at home.
Empress is losing the war - fighting said army and wizards elsewhere - decides to send in the biggest guns she's got in Claw, mages and Moranth.
Rake is not fazed. But Pale wizards are very fazed as they can see they have to actually do some serious fighting.
Pale wizards skip town, probably by warren. Rake is left with his backside hanging out. Rake's backside is still very powerful and he takes a massive dump all over the Malazans - but he can't both take a dump and stop them kicking him in the nuts.
Rake has to decide whether to stay and save Pale where he will undoubtedly lose Moon Spawn - or Save his people's home and children.
Rake seeks revenge for Pale on Pale wizards.
Rake needs somewhere to park damaged floating homeland - offers Darujhistan alliance.

Thats my take on it anyway.

Chaz wrote: "Why did Rallick Nom change his target at the last second? He seems to have heard something and then come with a new and highly complex plan in an instant:"

He takes out the council member - and we've just heard Orr shooting his mouth off to Baruk that he has a majority in the council of one. I wonder if he needed that councillor's vote?



I liked the encounter with Orr and Baruk. So we have the political council - and then we have the cabal of wizards who secretly run things.

Orr wants to declare neutrality then hand the city over to the Malazans peaceably - but he suspects he might have trouble with the mages. Which he does. Because Baruk has no intention just handing the city over. To which Orr gets angry and effectively says, well I don't need you because you don't vote anyway - and if you make trouble then we will just let the Claw handle you.

So when Rallick kills the councillor instead of the woman - that's Oponn throwing a spanner in the works.

Rallick of course doesn't know this, but instead sees a way to humiliate and discredit the woman somehow through scandal. Dead councillor in your house isn't good for reputation - I'm guessing here.

See now I am spending more time reading your comments than the bloody book David!

Right. tomorrow night. NO GOODREADS.

Well, maybe just a little bit.

Susan wrote: "Also Rake's sword. He must have very long arms to be able to pull a 6.5 foot sword out of its scabbard on his back. Then again he is a powerful Mage. "

Well, he is nearly 7 feet tall. So his arms are probably like 3 feet - hmmm - it is a magic sword...? Anyone got any ideas how Rake manages to draw it and still look cool?

Lee wrote: "See now I am spending more time reading your comments than the bloody book David!

Right. tomorrow night. NO GOODREADS.

Well, maybe just a little bit."

You think you've got it tough. Try writing it!
Me too. No Goodreads tomorrow. Duh - who am I kidding.

Lee wrote: "See now I am spending more time reading your comments than the bloody book David!"

This!

if they weren't so good/insightful, I might be upset!

I'm growing attached to and obsessed with this website. I used to use it only to rate novels and read reviews, but since my friend recommended me this group read I've started using the site extensively.

I will have to re-read this chapter (again!). I keep making the stupid mistake of reading-when-I-am-too-tired-to-handle-all-info. Gaaah!

And I have to agree - your posts are golden, David, I discover so many connections I myself failed to see through them. Terrific summaries.

Haha, when I open my GR android app all I can see updates from Malazan re-read! It's great to see what others thinks of it as it's still fresh from my first read and easy to follow up. Thank you :-)

David Sven wrote: "Susan wrote: "Also Rake's sword. He must have very long arms to be able to pull a 6.5 foot sword out of its scabbard on his back. Then again he is a powerful Mage. "

Well, he is nearly 7 feet tall..."

Is it definitely in a scabbard? It could be slung on a leather strap. I can't draw a diagram on Goodreads but an 8 foot strap tied to the hilt with a leather pouch that goes over the tip at the other end would sling across his body and be easy to free but the blade itself would be bare across his back. Or you could have a loose scabbard that is open along the length on one side (obviously the open side is the "upwards" pointing side).

Thanks Rob/Kat/Lee. I enjoy putting my thoughts down and a lot of it is has been provoked by the questions people have been asking that I didn't even think of. Sometimes looking at a puzzle starts with knowing the right questions. I love the interaction.

David Sven wrote: "Rake is left with his backside hanging out. Rake's backside is still very powerful and he takes a massive dump all over the Malazans - but he can't both take a dump and stop them kicking him in the nuts."

You sir, are a poet.

Chaz wrote: "Is it definitely in a scabbard"

Yeah a wooden one. So partially open on one side would actually work. Thank you.



Chaz wrote: "You sir, are a poet."

Toilet poetry never gets old.

David Sven wrote: "Sometimes looking at a puzzle starts with knowing the right questions. I love the interaction."

Does indeed! I love it too.

First off, David, you're a genius. Seriously, thank you so much and I'm not joking - you need to get in touch with someone and annotate this mutha. :D

Especially with lines like this:

Rake is left with his backside hanging out. Rake's backside is still very powerful and he takes a massive dump all over the Malazans - but he can't both take a dump and stop them kicking him in the nuts.

I seriously laughed out loud on that. Had to spell it all the way out because I laughed that hard. :)

My thoughts - I guess this is where my man-crush/love affair with Rake began, much like most people. I can definitely tell you I didn't quite realize how powerful he was until this read. The fact that he's so in control just shows he's the man.

Also, Crone, Baruk, and Orr - just classic. I really liked Crone a lot more this time, it kind of reminded me of how Janny Wurts writes. The ability to be so perceptive of every detail, it's incredible.

Thanks Seak - I agree with the level of detail in the writing. It threw me the first time round because it wasn't something I was used to. I started this book by thinking how nothing was explained and all the motives were just convoluted - But in fact the opposite was true. I just wasn't used to an author who let me work thing out for myself, giving me every piece of info to answer any conceivable question I might have if I was willing to work for it.

Seak (Bryce L.) wrote: "My thoughts - I guess this is where my man-crush/love affair with Rake began, much like most people. I can definitely tell you I didn't quite realize how powerful he was until this read. The fact that he's so in control just shows he's the man."

I too am finding that I like Rake. I liked that his retreat from Pale stemmed from a leader's need to put his people first.

It's also curious how you, when given two sides of a story to take into consideration, find yourself siding with, and understanding, both parties. I like when characters are portrayed as realistic, feeling individuals; flawed, conflicted and multifaceted. People are rarely as superficial as "evil" or "good" - usually they act as they do because they're convinced that what they're doing is The Right Thing.

Essentially, it makes the experience of reading the novel more interesting; no one calls the shots for you - you decide on your own who you want to side with, and that opens a world of possibilities.

I don't think I'll ever be able to read scenes with Rake without imagine his godly dumps....

Rake must be mighty potent indeed.
First, we learn (through his account at least) that his encounter with the High Mages (7 correct?) was effectively a draw, and only because he was also charged with defending MS.
Second, his arrival at Baruk's not only breaks his wards, it's as if [...a massive hand is crushing the entire estate].
Third; Baruk cannot not see Rake 'radiate'. It's as if he were part of the inanimate objects within the room.
Fourth; the sword. The first time I read GotM I thought of Rake as Elric, or at least in possession of Stormbringer or Mournblade. I made that same connection again this time.

The building of a convergence in Daru.

* The Malazans are coming to defeat/take over the city
* There is a civil war brewing in Daru (pitting the Council against mages. More?)
* The Assassin's Guild is in the midst of thinning its ranks (at least)
* How, if at all, is the City Watch involved, and what part will they play (the chapter opens with the introduction of a Watchman)?
* Crokus (thief), and Kruppe (prophet/profiteer) have been in consecutive chapters? Where do they fit in.

It seems SE is building this messy, convoluted hairball. And with the introduction of each new character, we get snippets and morsels of past history and interactions (i.e. TS and QB, WJ once a Fist, Kruppe and Crone).

To quote Pete Townsend in Give Blood:
Where heading for the day of reckoning
I'm telling ya, it's all building up to something
Something that can be repeated with fire

* The Assassin's Guild is in the midst of thinning its ranks (at least)

Or having its ranks thinned for them. Which is a different thing altogether.

Love this chapter!
Like the Crone, loved the introduction to Rake and Baruk.

But the last few pages with Kruppe just thump everything else
"Kruppe didn't think the city's multitude of mitresses awoke so early in the day. After all, what might they see in their mirrors? Kruppe shivers at the thought"

And just a few paragraphs later, complaining he isn't served breakfast first
"Kruppe is of a mind to cast a thousand horrible spells on rude Sulty"

Luckily for Sulty "Kruppe is magnanimous this morning"

If every scene with Kruppe is going to make me chuckle like that, I want more Kruppe!

Kat wrote: "It's also curious how you, when given two sides of a story to take into consideration, find yourself siding with, and understanding, both parties. I like when characters are portrayed as realistic, feeling individuals; flawed, conflicted and multifaceted. People are rarely as superficial as "evil" or "good" - usually they act as they do because they're convinced that what they're doing is The Right Thing."

I agree. I find i sometimes dislike these black-and-white-fantasy-stories these days. i can still handle good versus bad guys, if they all appear realistic and 'human' at least.

but i so much prefer it when there isn't really a side to pick, and you end up cheering for both :)

Much the same for me, Hanne; as long as I grow fond of the characters. But it's, as you say, not the same as a novel where you have to do some own thinking :)

@Hanne - I love Kruppe. I like it when he's bragging about his supposed exploits and his listeners are just looking for any excuse to be able to escape. Magnanimous indeed!

The other thing I'm appreciating this time round is how Steven Erikson use of puns and in-jokes to alert the reader to what is going on. For example - how many "luck" or "chance" comments are there being thrown around that have nothing to do with Oponn - but as the reader we could just as easily insert Oponn's name into the narrative and it would be an accurate picture of what is going on.

It's often said that SE doesn't spoon feeds his readers. But I think its more accurate to say - he just uses a different type of spoon.

Kat wrote: "It's also curious how you, when given two sides of a story to take into consideration, find yourself siding with, and understanding, both parties. I like when characters are portrayed as realistic, feeling individuals; flawed, conflicted and multifaceted. People are rarely as superficial as "evil" or "good" - usually they act as they do because they're convinced that what they're doing is The Right Thing.

Essentially, it makes the experience of reading the novel more interesting; no one calls the shots for you - you decide on your own who you want to side with, and that opens a world of possibilities."

Welcome to Malazan.

This aspect above all the others is why I am most in love with this series.

Actually that is a very good point David, i'll need to watch out for normal things going bad and being blamed on Oponn.

Bard wrote: "There are so many great characters in this book already. At first my vote for coolest character went to "Sorry" and then Whiskeyjack and now Rake.

I'm finding it hard to put this book down even th..."

You're going to be busy finding new coolest characters. I was convinced that the coolest character ever made his first appearance in the fourth book. (view spoiler)[ And then learned that he had appeared in the second book, but under a different name. (hide spoiler)] Then again, I found a couple of new, coolest characters in the fifth book.

Agree about the 5th - 3 of my favorites introduced there!

"There is a shaping in the night," Crone said, after
Turban Orr had left.

What is Crone talking about here?

By a shaping, I think she's talking about higher powers shaping mortal events to suit their own purposes. The dropping of the coin to save Crokus was one such shaping. The possession of Sorry was another. And Crone senses yet another coming.

Renny wrote: "What is Crone talking about here?"

I agree with Duffy and I took Crone's comment to refer to Orr's plans specifically. Orr doesn't know that his assured Council victory has been put in jeopardy by Rallick's assassination of Lim but Crone senses the hand of gods (or "shaping") in Darujhistan's fate. Therefore I think Crone's comment which refers to god intervention this night in D'stan would refer to Rallick's change of target.

I agree, she says that jus after Rallick changes his killing choice and thus sets into motion a turbulent time in the council. If Rallick had killed Simtal instead, Orr would have had the majority in the chambers and gone on to victory.

This is well worth remembering--

Magic was ambrosia to Great Ravens. They were drawn to it by the scent of blood and power, and within its aura their lifespans lengthened into centuries.

...and Crone mentions, later in the chapter, that she is 100,000 years old!

Anomander Rake's recounting of his perspective on the "Enfilade at Pale" to Baruk was an eye-opener too, wasn't it?