The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This is Week Eight for Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Eight - January 7th - January 13th -> Chapters TWENTY SEVEN, TWENTY EIGHT, TWENTY NINE, and THIRTY p. 275 - 323

TWENTY SEVEN - In Wait at Monticello, TWENTY EIGHT - To the Vice Presidency, TWENTY NINE - The Reign of Witches, and THIRTY - Adams vs. Jefferson Redux

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on November 19th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO RANDOM HOUSE FOR THEIR KINDNESS AND GENEROSITY.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS.

WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

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Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

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Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus:

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

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Book as a Whole Thread:

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Welcome,

~~Bryan

by Jon Meacham

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Twenty Seven: In Wait at Monticello

Jefferson began to rebuild his home, hunt, fished, and rode. In politics, Jefferson feared a war with Britain and John Jay went to England to negotiate a treaty. Jay's Treaty was controversial and many thought it gave too many concessions to England. It gave new purpose for the Republicans as Jefferson was thinking about the presidency and he allowed others to use his name for the Republican cause.

Chapter Twenty Eight: To the Vice Presidency

In September 1796, the presidential race was on. Newspapers attacked Jefferson and Adams. Jefferson was seen as a coward while governor, and Adams a monarchist. Adams won the election with Jefferson as vice president. Adams and Jefferson talk about sending Madison abroad to France, but Jefferson did not support this idea. Adams kept most of Washington's cabinet members. Relations with France became strained as France reacted to Jay's Treaty by seizing U.S. ships.

Jefferson's daughter got married to John Wayles Eppes. Sally Hemings had a child nine months after Jefferson' trip to Monticello.

Chapter Twenty Nine: The Reign of Witches

It was tense time during Adams' term. The XYZ Affair intensified the war scare with France, creating a Quasi-War. Congress passed the Alien and Sedition Acts that Jefferson opposed. Adams responded that these times called for extraordinary measures. A number of Republican newspaper editors were arrested and a Republican congressman, Matthew Lyon. Jefferson wrote the Kentucky Resolutions opposed these laws and supported the idea of nullification.

On the home front, Sally's two-year old daughter died on January 22, 1798, but she got pregnant again and gave birth to another daughter in August 1799. Jefferson also was dealing with a alcoholic brother-in-law.

Chapter Thirty: Adams vs. Jefferson Redux

The 1800 election was an ugly one with high stakes. Jefferson was labeled an infidel, but won the election.

Virginians had to deal with Gabriel's (slave) revolt during this time that reaffirmed for Jefferson and many Southerners that blacks could not live in the U.S. with whites.

I think the first chapter shows TJ's sides: the need to stay home and his passion for politics. He seemed to be moving back into politics as the stakes get higher.

Bryan wrote: "I think the first chapter shows TJ's sides: the need to stay home and his passion for politics. He seemed to be moving back into politics as the stakes get higher."

Perhaps a bit more evidence for Meacham's idea of The Art of Power. Power is worth more if the stakes are higher?

Well said, Kathy.

I was a bit surprised that Meacham opened this section with the Randolph scandal which impacted Jefferson only indirectly. His daughter, Martha, testified at the trial. It is a fascinating story and I enjoyed reading two non-fiction books about it: “Unwise Passions” and “Scandal at Bizarre.” Nancy Randolph is a rather amazing woman. I wonder if Meacham will refer back to TJ’s advice to Martha when he is the subject of political scandal . . . .

by Alan Pell Crawford

by Cynthia A. Kierner

I never knew about the Randolph scandal until now. Thanks Joanne for the book suggestions, I am going to read those as soon as I finish this book.
It amazes me the information that high school history classes skip!

It is interesting, Joanne. It is not on most people's radar. It was for Jefferson because it was family.

What are your thoughts on Meacham's words?

"He needed the world of politics and of consequence. It was crucial to his health, and to his sense of self and well-being." (p. 283)

Bryan wrote: "What are your thoughts on Meacham's words?

"He needed the world of politics and of consequence. It was crucial to his health, and to his sense of self and well-being." (p. 283)"

I think that this is part of the essence of Jefferson, an essence he denied in his public statements and may have denied even to himself.

Cynthia wrote: "I never knew about the Randolph scandal until now. Thanks Joanne for the book suggestions, I am going to read those as soon as I finish this book.
It amazes me the information that high school his..."

You will be amazed at Nancy Randolph's life story. Talk about a survivor! And, as I recall, Martha Jefferson Randolph, took her father's advice and was kind to her.

I agree Peter. I always had the impression he was quite secure in his life at Monticello. In his writings, you are left with the impression that politics was a burden, his biggest desire was the refuge of Monticello.

However, I think Meacham shows us an important element: he did have a huge political desire. It makes sense because all the work he did in the political sphere. You have to have it. But because you don't run for office, I think it is sometimes seen as indifference.

Bryan wrote: "What are your thoughts on Meacham's words?

"He needed the world of politics and of consequence. It was crucial to his health, and to his sense of self and well-being." (p. 283)"

Did Jefferson "need" the world of politics like an actor "needs" the stage? Was his denial of "seeking or wanting" power and position a kind of false modesty, or did he really believe he didn't need to be a man of influence and in the public eye? My mother always said, "Watch what they do, not what they say."

Great questions, Joanne.

Sad that fear prompted the passing of things like the Alien and Sedition acts of 1798. Even sadder still that we've seen similar measures go through in our most recent history.

On page 299 of ARC:
"The Jefferson political style, though, remained smooth rather than rough, polite rather than confrontational. He was a ferocious warrior for the causes in which he believed, but he conducted his battles at a remove, tending to use friends and allies to write and publish and promulgate the messages he thought crucial to the public debate."

In my opinion, another example of what Meacham considers the art of power.

David wrote: "Sad that fear prompted the passing of things like the Alien and Sedition acts of 1798. Even sadder still that we've seen similar measures go through in our most recent history."

Indeed, David, a black spot in our history, no doubt.

G wrote: "On page 299 of ARC:
"The Jefferson political style, though, remained smooth rather than rough, polite rather than confrontational. He was a ferocious warrior for the causes in which he believed, b..."

Absolutely, G. Do you think it is an asset in these tumultuous times?

David wrote: "Sad that fear prompted the passing of things like the Alien and Sedition acts of 1798. Even sadder still that we've seen similar measures go through in our most recent history."

Yes, and Meacham's paragraph a little earlier puts this back on our current political stage. The threat has a different form now, but it (they, as there are several) is there.

P 301
"The perpetual threat of conflict...infused American politics with a sense of constant crisis...there seemed no middle ground, only extremes of opinion or of outcome."

Can anyone sight good quotes from the Adam's or Hamilton's point of view that defends the Alien and Sedition acts?

Jim wrote: "Can anyone sight good quotes from the Adam's or Hamilton's point of view that defends the Alien and Sedition acts?"

Let me see what I can find. It might take a little while. Some letters are digitized, most are not...

Bryan wrote in the previous week's discussion that in recent years the regard of historians for Hamilton has increased, whereas that for Jefferson has decreased (largely because of the slavery issue). I have wondered if Meacham's biography, which overall is very favorable, will bolster Jefferson's reputation again.

However, in this section, I did find one instance where Meacham was sharply critical of Jefferson. This involved the latter's writing of nullification resolutions for Kentucky. These asserted the rights of states to ignore federal laws like the Alien and
Sedition Acts. P. 310
"...Jefferson went down the path to endangering the Union he loved so. In the resolution he endorsed the idea of nullification - the right of a state to refuse to comply with federal laws that it deemed unconstitutional. Here was the great advocate of a stronger, more effective national government proposing a mechanism for chaos and almost certain disunion."

Fortunately, the resolutions were never adopted by Kentucky.

In this book we read a lot about how viciously the Federalists and Republicans attacked each other. And yet weren't the leaders -Jefferson, Adams, and Hamilton - all men of great integrity, talent, and patriotism. I suppose that explains why the young nation got through its growing pains so successfully.

This book is a best-seller, so yes, I agree Ann, I think this will help bolster his reputation.

Great quote. You know, it just shows you that TJ was not perfect. I get a sense TJ's passion is found in these resolutions, a almost visceral reaction to the Alien and Sedition Acts.

By the way, this is a great read and it is in Meacham's bibliography:

Leonard W. Levy

That looks like a fascinating book, Bryan. It goes to show that actually wielding power can radically change your perspective. I hope Meacham deals with this later in the book.

Bryan wrote: "G wrote: "On page 299 of ARC:
"The Jefferson political style, though, remained smooth rather than rough, polite rather than confrontational. He was a ferocious warrior for the causes in which he b..."

I do think so. It helps with foes as well as friends. William Paterson, who was not a political ally said (p 311 ARC) " No one can know Mr. Jefferson and be his personal enemy"..."I was highly pleased with his remarks, for though we differed on many points, he displayed an impartiality, a freedom from prejudice."

So even though Jefferson had passionate political beliefs, in one on one situations, he clearly could harness the passion, and bring cool logic into play.

Thanks, G. and he was a pretty good strategic thinker, too.

I know it was the way of the times to not openly campaign for a political post but it seems to me that Jefferson was a bit more disingenuous than most. As I read it seems almost impossible to nail this guy down on anything. He was for whatever seemed best for him. I have always thought of him as a real leader but the more I read the more I realize that he was mostly reacting to whatever sentiment was prevalent at the time. I am also beginning to wonder about his personal courage when it comes down to the crunch as whether he should flee change his position or keep quite. Very mercurial fellow. If anyone disagree's please say so. This book has disillusioned me so far as to Jefferson's character.

Clayton wrote: "I know it was the way of the times to not openly campaign for a political post but it seems to me that Jefferson was a bit more disingenuous than most. As I read it seems almost impossible to nail..."

An intriguing question Clayton, do I rank Jefferson's character or leadership / statesmanship amongst the greats? I'd have to answer that my list of such men is shortened by the number of biographies I have read. With each bio I read I find flawed personalities players in history's high points. Does the package named Jefferson stand equal to or above his contemporaries, I say yes. Would Jefferson equate to the notable men of other American time periods, I say yes. Is he a leader, I haven't enough information from this book but true leadership is a very rare commodity and so far Jefferson is not on my list.
I will say that of the many many bios I have read, Jefferson would be one of a few I would like to travel back in time and share a long afternoon.

I'd love to see Jefferson and Churchill sharing a bottle of brandy. Would either be a dud, a blowout, or an amazing dialogue.

If you define leadership as the ability to have others believe in your opinion, and follow you, then Churchill failed hugely until everyone realized he was right. People followed Jeffersons ideas on independence. I believe he was subtle but also conflicted and complex, as are most leaders.

G wrote: "I'd love to see Jefferson and Churchill sharing a bottle of brandy. Would either be a dud, a blowout, or an amazing dialogue.

If you define leadership as the ability to have others believe in your..."

G,

What was Churchill right about in the end? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Jim

That Germany was planning to take over Europe, unless I've misread things. Certainly a possibility. But this discussion is probably not for the Jefferson thread. Apologies for including a whimsical thought.

Thanks everyone for some great thoughts.

It is tough. TJ was put on such a pedestal by many great leaders and ordinary people. As we look at his warts, we place him on more realistic level.

I struggled with this myself. I had him on a pedestal and now I don't. I agree with G, I think he had great leadership skills. I admire his inquiry mind, as well. But I realized he was human. He had some flaws in my opinion. But his legacy of republicanism and the declaration cannot be overlooked.

I once met a man from a very small island country who helped gain independence. He and his movement were inspired by Jefferson and the DOI.

Jim wrote: "Clayton wrote: "I know it was the way of the times to not openly campaign for a political post but it seems to me that Jefferson was a bit more disingenuous than most. As I read it seems almost im..."

Thanks for the comments. I also would love to be able to go back in time so that I could travel with Jefferson to such places as a wine tour of the south of France. He was a very eclectic person. The one thing that has not changed for me about him was his thirst for knowledge and his willingness to share. Maybe that is what made him the way he was. His internal drive to experience all aspects of life. I paraphrase the Bible when I say there is nothing new under the sun and maybe Jefferson was like Solomon in that he wanted a taste of it all.

Well said, Clayton, I think he did want to taste it all. Pretty amazing.

G wrote: "That Germany was planning to take over Europe, unless I've misread things. Certainly a possibility. But this discussion is probably not for the Jefferson thread. Apologies for including a whimsic..."

G,
I like whimsical comments. It's, in my whimsical opinion, what this reading together is all about.

Jim

I think if Churchill offered TJ Madeira, he would love to sit down. It was his favorite.

A large part of Jefferson's leadership style was avoiding direct confrontation himself, but directing subordinates to do the messy work. Did that bother anyone?

TJ was definitely the leader of the Republican movement, and the fact that Madison and Monroe deferred so much to him says a lot about his ability to exert power.

I am reading another book about Jefferson at the same time as this one: American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson by Joseph J. Ellis. It won the National Book Award. Overall it is more critical of Jefferson than Meacham's book. Has anyone else read it?
Joseph J. Ellis

Yes, I have read American Sphinx and it also shows the human side of TJ (and warts). We read at the HBC a couple years ago.

I am not bothered by his leadership style. Many other leaders had it. He got things done. Ann, I think you said something interesting, Madison and others did not mind getting messy. This tells you something.

Don't forget the proper citation:

Joseph J. Ellis

Sorry about the citation. I have corrected my note.

I think the fact that Madison and Monroe were willing to do the messy work shows that it was accepted procedure at the time.

Ellis's book is very interesting, but he almost completely skips certain things that Meacham emphasizes, for example, the Alien and Sedition Acts. I suppose that is because they don't contribute to his goal of searching for the unifying patterns in Jefferson's political philosophy and character.

On page 276 of Meacham's book, in 1794 Jefferson described his habit of writing 10-12 letters a day before he "retired" to Monticello. Historians have so many writings to pour through that they can probably always find support for their theses. :-)

I agree with others here. Jefferson would be an absolutely fascinating person to meet in real time.

Ann wrote: "A large part of Jefferson's leadership style was avoiding direct confrontation himself, but directing subordinates to do the messy work. Did that bother anyone?

TJ was definitely the leader of th..."

They say that one of the signs of good leadership is surrounding yourself with talented people who are experienced and willing to carry out your policies and sometimes "take the heat". This was Jefferson's style and it probably set the standard for Presidents to follow.

Jim wrote: "G wrote: "That Germany was planning to take over Europe, unless I've misread things. Certainly a possibility. But this discussion is probably not for the Jefferson thread. Apologies for including..."

In that case I can admit I have the curse of seeing only the best in most historical persons. There are of course the unredeemable, and they have their own special place in my reading list. Churchill and Jefferson fit into the first category for me. That is not to say I am unaware of Churchill's views on India and Ireland and the hypocrisy of Jeffersons way with feudal enslavement.

Could the Alien and Sedition Acts be considered as causing the first strengthening of the States Rights concept?

Jefferson certainly expressed a strong opinion and in what reads like very modern language when he wrote to Madison, “The President (Washington) is fortunate to get off just as the bubble is bursting, leaving others to hold the bag.” (p. 305)

G wrote: "Could the Alien and Sedition Acts be considered as causing the first strengthening of the States Rights concept?"

I think there was state rights issues during the Articles of Confederation that might be seen as a strengthening is state rights. It might have ebbed and flowed.

Clayton wrote: "I know it was the way of the times to not openly campaign for a political post but it seems to me that Jefferson was a bit more disingenuous than most. As I read it seems almost impossible to nail..."

I haven't finished all the reading for this section yet . . . but I have completed the other book I was reading in tandem to this one . . . . your opinion of TJ may be further tarnished after reading it. His reputation has definitely diminished and lost it's glow . . .

by Henry Wiencek

I think it is important not to forget Jefferson "regarded the laws on publication and advocacy as a flat out negation of the First Amendment" (from Christopher Hitchens Thomas Jefferson: Author of America, regarding his opinion of the Alien and Sedition Acts).

Fear and hatred of non Americans has a long and shameful history in the US.

Thanks to Jefferson for letting me, as an American, share my opinions about him.

by Christopher Hitchens

Bryan,

A couple of posts below G mentioned Churchill and then offered that is was a discussion outside this book and not suitable to our discussion on Jefferson. What are the rules for our group reading. If the discussion breaks off to another time/place/person in history what then? I'm a student of history without restraints and appreciate everyone's comments.

What should happen? G allowed to bring up Churchill (and following comments) or ???

Jim

Jim wrote: "Bryan,

A couple of posts below G mentioned Churchill and then offered that is was a discussion outside this book and not suitable to our discussion on Jefferson. What are the rules for our group r..."

Jim,

We try hard to keep on the topic and on the chapters we discuss in this thread. We have a spoiler thread that you can use to bring in other outside thoughts.

I have no problem bringing outside references if they pertain to the chapters. It was correct of G to stop the discussion before I did.

So, we talk about the material in the chapters trying to tie it to TJ. Material that is not covered can wait until their appropriate thread. And spoiler topics or general thoughts in our spoiler threads.

Thanks for bringing the discussion back to Jefferson. I wish that there had been more information on the XYZ scandal and the relationships between Hamilton and Jefferson. Maybe there will be more later on the banking system proposed by Hamilton. There were so many great men at that time. John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, Aaron Burr, Henry etc. If anyone knows of a really good book that gives more details of these mens life in perspective of the times it would be appreciated. I am looking for something along the lines of "Battle Cry of Freedom by McPherson.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35...


http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Cry-Free...