Jane Austen discussion

(Mr. Collins proposes to Elizabeth but he wins Charlotte. The Bingleys and Darcy have left and the letter from Caroline ends Jane's hopes but she is invited to London and Lizzy to Kent.)

this made me laugh so hard :D

"``I am not now to learn,'' replied Mr. Collins, with a formal wave of the hand, ``that it is usual with young ladies to reject the addresses of the man whom they secretly mean to accept, when he first applies for their favour; and that sometimes the refusal is repeated a second or even a third time. I am therefore by no means discouraged by what you have just said, and shall hope to lead you to the altar ere long.''

This proves just how senseless and ridiculous he is!

Haha! I wonder what gave him that idea that refusing proposals was a societal custom? Probably just trying to deny the fact that he could actually be refused. He's like a bulldozer in this scene - one purpose in mind and refusing to be deviated from it :P

Mr. Collins self confidence is left to be admired. He firmly believes he can wed any of the Bennet girls that he desires. Kudos to his self confidence!

That's true. he's always saying that he flatters himself that Lizzy wouldn't be too unsatisfied with what he has to offer. What he means is "Woman! How can you resist everything I got goin on?!"

lol, hehe. He should just kill his speeches/monotones(my goodness, the proposal to Elizabeth was the worst!) and quit kissing Lady Catherine de Bourgh behind.

Haha, it would probably physically pain him to stop kissing Lady Catherine's behind. Ridiculous man.

I just can't believe his gall, though. He's got such a one-track, is so determined that he will fulfill his purpose in coming to Longbourn to find a wife that he just won't take no for an answer. And then he threatens Lizzy, in a sort of roundabout way, by saying that maybe they should appeal to the authority of her parents. (!!!) I mean, she's already said no. That was such a blatant attempt at a threat.

I think this is one of the few times when Mr. Bennet really shines. I love him for what he says to Lizzy about the proposal. What do you all think Lizzy's reaction would have been if her father had insisted on the marriage? Which is highly unlikely of course, but it makes me wonder.

I don't think I can call it self-confidence... for me it's just ridiculousness and meanness since he was convinced he had the upper hand considering her social predicament.

I guess it was pretty much a social rule for girls to marry to secure a social status, but Lizzy was the exception and not the rule... so much for Mr. Collins's ego :D

True, but perhaps the fact that he does have the upper hand gives him that confidence. Lucky for Mr. Collins he was born in the 19th century.

Chahrazad wrote: "this made me laugh so hard :D

"``I am not now to learn,'' replied Mr. Collins, with a formal wave of the hand, ``that it is usual with young ladies to reject the addresses of the man whom they sec..."

Utterly ridiculas! If i was to reject a man, that would not mean i secretly will say yes the second or even third time! hahaha such a silly man!

LadyDisdain wrote: "That's true. he's always saying that he flatters himself that Lizzy wouldn't be too unsatisfied with what he has to offer. What he means is "Woman! How can you resist everything I got goin on?!""

This made me laugh so much! haha

he really needs to back off Lady C and just ... stop being so annoying!! he is so ... just... slimy and annoying! haha he is INSUFFERABLE!

LadyDisdain wrote: " Lucky for Mr. Collins he was born in the 19th century."

hahaha, you're right! the poor fellow wouldn't have stood a chance otherwise :D

Haha, yeah, poor Collins, dare I say?

I love how both of the recent screen adaptations seemed to imply that Mary held a torch for Collins. But in the novel Mary thinks she can improve him :P She thinks he's clever but not as clever as herself.

"Mrs Bennet wished to understand by it that he thought of paying addresses to one of her younger girls, and Mary might have been prevailed on to accept him. She rated his abilities much higher than any of the others; there was a solidity in his reflection which often struck her, and though by no means so clever as herself, she thought that if encouraged to read and improve himself by such an example as hers, he might become a very agreeable companion."

That match would have been brilliant, actually :D Just think about it - pompousness and self-importance on both side. It'd be a constant tug of war! Who would win I wonder?

Mr.Collins proposal is priceless.I love it when he says you are not serious in your rejection,I shall choose to attribute it to your wish of increasing my love by suspense as cording to the usual practice of elegant females.Where does he get his information?How does he know what is the usual practice of women when being proposed too?Has he proposed to many women?

I wonder if Mr.Collins had proposed to Lydia and she laughed in his face would Mrs.Bennet be as mad at her favorite as she was at Lizzie who is her least favorite?
But even Mr.Collins had sense not to want to marry Lydia.

My favorite Mr.Bennet line happens in this section.When Mrs.Bennet is taking about living to see Charlotte take her place and Mr.Bennet says Let us hope for better things.Let us flatter ourselves that I may be the survivor.I always laugh when I read it.

I understand why Charlotte accepted Mr.Collins but like Lizzie can't ever think she will be happy with him.In this time she wouldn't have to marry and could be a successful business women.

LadyDisdain wrote: "Haha, yeah, poor Collins, dare I say?

I love how both of the recent screen adaptations seemed to imply that Mary held a torch for Collins. But in the novel Mary thinks she can improve him :P She ..."

haha I don't know... I think Mary and Mr Collins would have worked. Both annoying (Mary is annoying at times)...

Nicole D. wrote: "Mr.Collins proposal is priceless.I love it when he says you are not serious in your rejection,I shall choose to attribute it to your wish of increasing my love by suspense as cording to the usual p..."

I agree! How does he know? how much experience has he had at proposing!!?? haha

OH my! Mr Collins and Lydia... right..... never!I bet she wouldn't want Lydia to go to him actually and if he did, she would have laughed in his face!

I think Jane would have accepted... what do you think about that? if he hadn't switched to Lizzy, would Jane have said yes...?

That is such a funny line about him outliving Mrs Bennet hahaha it makes me smile as well!

I undersatnd why Charlotte says yes as well... i could never, even if i was in her position, accept him! I know she says she is not romantic but... he would drive me crazy after... a hour, maybe two... ;)

No I don't think Jane would have taken him.She believes like Lizzie in love being part of marriage.Plus she was in love already with Mr.Bingley.She would have been really kind in telling him No.Like Fanny was really kind in telling Henry no.

I give Mr.Collins less then a half hour before I lost my mind.I am not as strong as you Soph ;)

That flower thing was a nice touch in the film, I thought. Makes him a little less odious than he is in the book. That scene at the Netherfield ball, when he's pulling petals off the flower? It actually made me feel sympathy for him. That film really had a way of adding an extra life and dimension to characters that hasn't been in previous adaptations.

The flower in Mr. Collin's hand made him more comical to me. Just the look on his face whilst he twirled the flower around contrasted with Elizabeth's suffocating look. LOL. I will tell you I was in an uproar, when that scene came along. In the novel, it is one of the worst proposals in Literature.

It always gets me a little down to think that Lizzy and Charlotte will never have their original closeness after the latter's marriage to Collins.

I always thought Lizzy was far too harsh on Charlotte. I get that she believes in love for marriage, but really what did she expect? Her mother is constantly shoving them into the ways of any male that happens to come across so is it any wonder that Charlotte's made a grab at the first man who seems to be in her reach? In Ch24 Lizzy says something along the lines of Charlotte being insensible of the dangers of being married to Collins, but I'd say the opposite is true. It's because Charlotte's aware of her dire straits that she's made the choice she has.

And it enrages me even more, later on in the book, Lizzy is way more forgiving of Wickham's transferring his attentions to Mary King. His motives are the same as Charlotte's (on the surface, anyway) and she actually calls him prudent! Then why not Charlotte?! Gah.

How so? (Feel like Mr. Bennet saying that :P )

I agree with you LadyDisdain... I want to slap her sometimes to be honest, but then I go back thinking that this is what makes her so convincing and real; she's far from being perfect and that's why I prefer her to Jane who is the embodiment of goodness.

I think maybe Austen was saying that it's always a double standard.Men can marry and be prudent but women are always gold diggers and wrong to marry for comfort.
Lizzy doesn't think anything of Wickham's doing it because he is a man.It's nice to see no matter what time it was it was a man's world and always will be sadly.It always seems that everyone acts a man marrying for money is not at all wrong but a women they have committed the cardinal sin.

^True. I suppose it could also be said that she cares a lot more for Charlotte than she ever did for Wickham. They've been friends for a long time and of course she wants Charlotte to be happy and clearly Collins isn't the way to go. And with Wickham, she herself says her feelings were never deep.

The thing is the narrator (or Austen) DOES make the comparison between Wickham and Charlotte and points out Lizzy's blindness to it, so yeah, Nicole, I think you're right. It's more emphasis on the double standards.

Ah but you see Mr. Collins is not rich (was he?).

Wickham chased rich skirts for marriage. He had no intention of marrying Lydia if Mr. Darcy did not step in but he wanted to rush Georgiana to the altar for her 30, 000 pounds (correct if that detail is wrong). He made Georgiana believed he was in love with her when he was not.

Charlotte was practical. She said hey, I am 27, no marriage proposal. There is a man who will provide me an abode and will cherish me. Mr. Collins is a man capable of loving a woman and cherishing her, he is just not my type. I say Charlotte's marriage is based on convenience for her not the purse. Yes, she knew that one day, Mr.Collins would own Longbourn but for now, it was a need to be safe and know she will be provided for. Lizzie initially did not like the idea of Charlotte marrying Mr. Collins. Since Charlotte is her best friend and she(Lizzie) just said no to Collins (considering Mr C is impertinent). Charlotte explains to her that she is not like her (Lizzie). Remember what Charlotte told Lizzie about Jane marrying Bingley then get to know him.

There is a part where Lizzie does not feel close to Charlotte as she did because of the marriage. Later, she decided she should pay Charlotte a visit considering they were best friends before.

Therefore, I do see a difference between Charlotte and Wickham on their stance on marriage.

Mr.Collins wasn't rich no but comfortable I should have said.I agree that some of Lizzy not liking Charlotte marrying Mr.Collins was because of her being her best friend.But I still think Wickham being a guy was one of the reasons she wasn't so upset about Miss King.Handsome young man must having something to live on as well as the plain Lizzy said in a letter to her aunt.Well that went for women too plain and beautiful.

Charlotte wanted to get married and at 27 and not beautiful she had to marry someone or end up a burden on her family or if push came to it a governess.She married Mr.Collins because she would be comfortable.Also she knew Mr.Collins could make more money and make her more comfortable(other then getting Longbourn).When she is matchmaking for Lizzy in her mind while she is visiting she thinks that Colonel Fitzwilliam is the more agreeable man but Mr.Darcy would be better because he has pull in the church and the Colonel doesn't.Lizzy even sees it when Charlotte visits Lady Catherine everyday and Lizzy thinks that it must be because Lady Catherine has other livings.

Nicole D. wrote: "No I don't think Jane would have taken him.She believes like Lizzie in love being part of marriage.Plus she was in love already with Mr.Bingley.She would have been really kind in telling him No.Lik..."

Maybe she wouldn't buckle under obligation....
hahaha! He would be a hard one to withstand! ;)

Marren wrote: "The flower in Mr. Collin's hand made him more comical to me. Just the look on his face whilst he twirled the flower around contrasted with Elizabeth's suffocating look. LOL. I will tell you I was i..."

haha!! It made me laugh as well! but i think it did add a little extra dimension as well! haha

worst proposal in literature - yes!

I agree with Nicole about the double standards but I also agree with Marren about them having differences as well. I like Charlotte as a character and i understand her reasons behind accetping Collins and i odn't like Wickham and what he did. You could say charlotte married for money but i think it was more comfort and the fact that she felt she was a burden to her parents whereas Wickham, he married for money - he wanted Georgiana for the money, then Mary King for the money, and then he wasn't going to marry Lydia until Darcy came along and gave him money!

Oh Wickham did not have a choice, Mr. Darcy would whoop his behind, haha.

Hahaha ;)

Elizabeth was a well brought up young lady with no fortune, it was her duty to marry as soon as she could, and the command of her parents should have been paramount in this. Love was very little regarded in general. As it was, Lizzie was sure enough of her father’s affections to not fear rejecting the proposal.

What Lizzie did was actually very selfish. Mr Collins will someday own her home, if none of her sisters are married before her father dies they will be reduced to poverty. None of them have the means to support themselves, even Jane and Lizzie might struggle to find employment. Had she married him, she would have ensured a home for her family, in effect he offered to take all of them on, and in fact that was Mrs Bennett’s motivation and she expected her daughter to do her duty. She thinks Mr Collins an eligible young man after all, and his intelligence appears to be superior to her own so she can’t see why any of her daughters would refuse him.

Mr Collins was right about Elizabeth’s prospects at that time, however obnoxious it made him to point it out… and Mr Darcy made exactly the same assumption, whatever her feelings she COULDN’T refuse HIM. They were both wrong.

What Lizzie did was selfish. She should have married him to save the rest of her family - but with a character like Lizzie's, she isn't going to let the happiness of others affect what she does (and how it affects her happiness) She is very strongwilled and sticks to her own opinions and wishes. (which for that era is very brave and different, and admirable) And as you say, that is why both men didn't understand or believe that she was actually turning them down! A woman just didn't say no then, when so much depended on it! This is whhy I think that if Collins had asked Jane first as planned, she would have allowed her hapiness to be sacrificed for the good of her family (just as she does in Lost in Austen which I have just remembered!); so its lucky really that he asked Lizzie!

Yes exactly, and despite Jane being the much nicer/better person, I'd still rather be like Lizzie. They would all have been very unhappy if she had accepted him of course.

I have added Lost in Austen to my 'to watch' list too.

It says in the book that Elizabeth isn’t as clear headed about Mr Wickham’s situation as Charlotte’s, and it’s no doubt true that she doesn’t want to think badly of him because of her attraction to him. That said though, I think it’s natural for her to take a harder line with her close friend, someone whom she feels she knows well and whom she wants the best for.

If an amiable young man that she is mildly attracted to (and wants to think well of), prefers someone who she considers to be ‘a very good sort of girl’, to herself because Miss King comes with money, that’s one thing. But if her best friend whom she has always thought of as having an understanding and regard equal to her own, wilfully marries someone whom she considers it to be a degradation to be attached to, just for the sake of a comfortable house? Isn’t that harder to understand?

I would much rather be a Lizzy as well!!

I agree. I think her attraction to wickham would create a different way of looking at things to her close friendship with Charlotte (her marrying Collins is a great shock!)
And even though he was marrying Miss King for money, Lizzy is inclinded to not mind because she is trying to think well of this handsome charming man. So, I think if i were Lizzy i too would not understand charlotte because It would shock me and I would have felt that after all the years I knew her.

Well after all Charlotte is the one who married Mr. Collins, sooo, it matters not what anyone but they thinks about their choice. Best friend or not. Charlotte's family was happy for her, Lizzie should just pucker up and be happy for her best friend. This is exactly what Charlotte wanted, she conspired it. She encouraged Mr.Collins over when the atmosphere got to heated at the Bennets.

I do not like Mr. Collins comical self but if Charlotte wants him then...

True, and I think Lizzy tries to, she's just convinced that Charlotte can't really be happy with him. Her first response is involuntary, then she curbs her reaction but it makes her uncomfortable which is a shame.

She doesn't try to talk her friend out of it after that initial conversation though and neither does she try to make Charlotte feel bad, or end their friendship even though it creates an awkwardness between them.

Even though I'm not reading this book now (finished it for the 4th time at the end of January), I just wanted to chime in :)

This scene is one of my favorites because you got to see Lizzie's spunk, as well as her relationship with her father. You gals hit it right on the head- Collins does suck up to Lady Catherine a lot! I felt like Collins acted so superior to the Bennets- back then societal conventions might have placed him higher above them because of his connection to Lady Catherine, but he just came off so pompous.

I love the relationship between Lizzie and Mr. Bennet! My favorite part is when he tells her that he will have to be a stranger to one of her parents should she accept Mr. Collins- it just shows that Lizzie truly is his favorite!

I liked Charlotte's explanation for accepting Mr. Collins- about wanting a good, comfortable home. Charlotte is a realist, and recognizes the importance of a good, valuable marriage, and because she was old by Victorian standards, she felt Mr. Collins would be her only chance at "happiness." While I had the same reaction as Lizzie, I also admired Charlotte's heart and decision to marry Mr. Collins.

Marren wrote: "Well after all Charlotte is the one who married Mr. Collins, sooo, it matters not what anyone but they thinks about their choice. Best friend or not. Charlotte's family was happy for her, Lizzie sh..."

That is very true. It was her choice. She says herself 'Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance' and I do think she is actually quite happy. She is able to conttive ways to be away from Collins quite a lot and she gets to run her own home and no longer be a burden to her parents. And you are right, she conspired after all. She knew what she was letting herself in for!

Louise wrote: "True, and I think Lizzy tries to, she's just convinced that Charlotte can't really be happy with him. Her first response is involuntary, then she curbs her reaction but it makes her uncomfortable w..."

Lizzy is definatley very shocked to begin with. And no she doesn't , after the first reaction, do anything which would make her feel uncomfortable or talk her out of it etc.

Dana wrote: "Even though I'm not reading this book now (finished it for the 4th time at the end of January), I just wanted to chime in :)

This scene is one of my favorites because you got to see Lizzie's spunk..."

Please do chime in :)
Pompus as anything, you got that right!! That is what annoys me most, i think, about him.
That quote about not speaking to his mother ever again if she deosn't marry him and not speaking to him ever agaiun if he does is classic! It really shows he does care about his Lizzy, which was obvious anyway! He certainly is his favourite!
You have to admire Charlotte for marrying him! I couldn't, however old! But, as I said above, she does have happiness of sorts, if not romantic happiness :)