The Malazan Fallen discussion

Spoilers up to chapter Twenty are ok.
Please mark any other spoilers using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them) .

RAEST IS SO BADASS! That Jaghut is fire in a body!

I mean, he is an ominous one. He oozes evil! All that building up until his saying "Now, I deliver death." and you are just in awe and I, at least, truly felt his immense power throughout that entire section. That comment was through the roof!

Raest is way cool. A Jaghut with a sense of humour is an awesome thing to witness.

Just who the heck is protecting Crockus? They dispatch Serrat like nothing, and seem unafraid of Rake's anger.

I really love Kruppe. He seems to pull a Jedi mind trick on Murillo.

I'm really curious why Rake left his meeting with Baruk early. Was it simply because he learns Crokus is Marmmot's nephew?

Fiddler and crew playing some sort of gambling game with the deck of dragons. It certainly seems like more than a game though.

WJ certainly seems to have Lorn where he wants her, but I'm not sure where that is.

Looking to end the book with one hell of a New Years party.

Oh and circle breaker thinks Lorn is the Eel, when she passes by him?

EDIT: i wrote this before actually reading chapter 20 (i got a bit confused about which thread i was writing so this should have ended up in chapter 18 thread) in other words, some of the below might get a bit confusing. Sorry - I really am :)
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Rob wrote: "Oh and circle breaker thinks Lorn is the Eel, when she passes by him?"

i went there and i dismissed that idea. just doesn't make sense in the bigger story.
i don't know who it is, but my thoughts are going towards the people who spend a lot of their time in phoenix inn - the Eel seems to be particularly well updated on what happens there

the other thing i was wondering is whether the whole female thing is a bait to give the real eel more cover. in that sense the real eel could actually be a man, and i've got one person in particular in mind who seems to bring and take quite a few messages on the Eel's behalf and given that Kruppe talks so often about himself, no-one would ever expect him to have a secret second life, so that's a double brilliant cover. didn't Sorry also notice that Kruppe was more important than he tried to give away?
so right now, i'm putting my money on Kruppe!

I wasn't saying I agree with him. I just thought it was interesting.

Oh and along the lines of your hunch, the Eel has promised to meet Baruk at the party. And who else now seems to be going to the party? Coincidence?

Rob wrote: "Oh and along the lines of your hunch, the Eel has promised to meet Baruk at the party. And who else now seems to be going to the party? Coincidence?"

i actually haven't read this chapter yet, i just reacted on your one sentence that came on my timeline :) i'll let you know whether my hunch is becoming stronger or weaker after reading it.


EDIT: oh pffff, that sucks. two pages into chapter 20 and murillio is basically saying what i'm saying. and here i thought i was being clever :D
changed the previous post as well, not very spoilery anymore. (such an anti-climax!)

Rob wrote: "Oh and circle breaker thinks Lorn is the Eel, when she passes by him?"

just read that passage and it's up for interpretation. what it actually says is this: "that woman who had passed through a few minutes ago had matched the Eel's description perfectly"

two ways to look at that: the description of the Eel... or a description given by the Eel

Rereading it, I think you're right. It seems like he was given her description and signaled to others when spotting her.

Rob wrote: "Rereading it, I think you're right. It seems like he was given her description and signaled to others when spotting her."

Yes i think so. After actually reading chapter, it's got to be Kruppe. Murillio is convinced that Kruppe is the Eel, and he's remarking that because of his physique the mask won't help to hide who he is.
A couple of pages later Baruk is talking to Rake about the Eel, saying that he think he knows who the Eel is and that a mask won't help to conceal.

On another note, we learn a little bit more about who is preventing Serrat to kill Crockus. His name isn't mentioned, but i) Serrat knows who it is, and ii) at the end of their conversation he says "compliments of the Prince, Serrat. take it up with our mutual friend"

The only 'Prince' i can remember seeing in this book is the one leading the Crimson Guard. So the Crimson Guard has entered the game as well and is behind the coin bearer?

This time through, I kind of like the way Erikson did the following. Lorn has an Otataral sword and it deadens magic. In this chapter, we also learn that it has the effect of speeding the healing of her wounds. Baruk gave Rallick a powder that has the effect of deadening magic. He says not to touch it because its effect is unpredictable. Rallick rubs it all over himself to protect himself from the other assassin's magic, and doesn't think it had any effect. Then his gut wound miraculously heals. It's pretty clear that the powder was Otataral dust.

Other thing that absolutely leaps out on this reading, but meant basically nothing the first time around, is our first mention of Icarium and Mappo. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder what Erikson does not introduce, at least in some passing fashion, in this first book.

Yes about Icarium and Mappo!

I think it's obvious that Kruppe is the Eel by what he did to Murillio during their exchange.

"I've worked some things out, Kruppe. Circle Breaker contacting me put everything in order in my mind. I know who you are."
"Aaai!" Kruppe cried, withdrawing. "I'll not deny it, then! It's true Murillio, Kruppe is Lady Simtal connivingly disguised."
Not this time! No distractions. You're the Eel, Kruppe. All this blubbering, sweaty meek-mouse stuff is just an act, isn't it? You've got half this city in your pocket, Eel."
Eyes wide, Kruppe snatched the handkerchief from his sleeve and mopped his brow. He wrung sweat from it, droplets spattering on the cobbles, then a veritable torrent splashed onto the stones.
Murillio barked a laugh. "No more magical cantrips, Kruppe. I've known you a long time, remember? I've seen you cast spells. You've got everybody fooled, but not me. I'm not telling though. You don't have to worry about that." He smiled. "Then again, if you don't come out with it here and now, I might get annoyed."
Sighing, Kruppe returned the handkerchief to his sleeve. "Annoyance is uncalled for," he said, waving a hand an fluttering his fingers.
Murillio blinked, suddenly dizzy. He rubbed his forehead and frowned. What had they just been talking about? It couldn't have been important. "Thanks for the masks, friend. They'll come in handy, I'm sure." His frown deepened. What a confusing thing to say! He wasn't even angry that Kruppe had figured things out; nor that the fat little man would attend the Fête. How odd!"

Realizing that Murillio won't drop it, Kruppe, who has no intention of confirming that he is the Eel, sighs, caves and drops the act. He doesn't have time for this, and to be able to drop the subject without revealing his true identity, he makes Murillio forget he even suspected him of being the Eel. Simple and effective solution - and the very act in itself confirms it. Otherwise, the sensible thing would be to tell Murillio off and speak the truth: that he isn't the Eel, that somebody else is - and that Murillio might as well just drop it and prepare for what's important; tonight's events, since he anyway won't tell him who the Eel is.

At least that's how I read it.

Kat wrote: "Realizing that Murillio won't drop it, Kruppe, who has no intention of confirming that he is the Eel, sighs, caves and drops the act. He doesn't have time for this, and to be able to drop the subject without revealing his true identity, he makes Murillio forget he even suspected him of being the Eel. Simple and effective solution - and the very act in itself confirms it. Otherwise, the sensible thing would be to tell Murillio off and speak the truth: that he isn't the Eel, that somebody else is - and that Murillio might as well just drop it and prepare for what's important; tonight's events, since he anyway won't tell him who the Eel is.

At least that's how I read it. "

Right there with you.
I'm sorry, i guess my previous posts were a tad confusing, and should have ended up in chapter 18 and 19 threads instead, because i hadn't read chapter 20 yet.

i think chapter 20 is pretty clear about the identity of the Eel.

Ah, OK. I was a tad confused, yes :)

On the first page of Chapter Twenty we get our first introduction to Icarium (view spoiler)[Life-Stealer (hide spoiler)] and his Trell (view spoiler)[guardian, Mappo Runt (hide spoiler)]. Mammot explains that Icarium made and gifted the calendar wheel to Darujhistan. 'Tis worth filing away this little tid-bit about Icarium and 'machines'.

This is followed up a couple of pages later with the conversation between Anomander Rake and Baruk about the Icarium's calendar 'machine', and Rake's cryptic warning--

"In the future, I'd suggest you heed Icarium's gifts--all of them."

And I now see that Duffy also posted about Icarium in #13, above. ;-)

Hanne wrote: "Kat wrote: "Realizing that Murillio won't drop it, Kruppe, who has no intention of confirming that he is the Eel, sighs, caves and drops the act. He doesn't have time for this, and to be able to dr..."

Ha, ha! Re 'The Eel', I knew you'd get there, Hanne. ;-)

Baruk's gaze focused on the Tiste Andii. "You suspect a convergence, don't you? A fell gathering of powers, like iron filings to a lodestone."

Ain't this the truth, brings home the adage that applies to the whole series..."Power draws power!"

Another foreshadowing--

Standing to one side, his charcoal-gray eyes fixed intently on Mammot, Rake said in a strangely flat tone, "Mammot, forgive me for interrupting. Will you be attending Lady Simtal's Fete?" [emphasis added]

I'd invite you to think back on what has recently happened to Mammot (in Chapter Seventeen). Definitely a 'Hmmm...' kind of moment...

Ok, for all who missed the "Eel" reference in chapter seven. We have this conversation between Murrilio and Rallick

Murillio snorted. 'Kruppe's memory is revised hourly. All that holds him together is fear of being discovered.'
Rallick's eyes darkened. 'Discovered?'
His friend seemed far away but then he collected himself and smiled. 'Oh, worn suspicions, no more. He's a slippery one, is Kruppe.'
Rallick chuckled at Murillio's mocking syntax. He studied the pond before them. 'Yes,' he agreed, after a time, 'he's the slippery one, all right.'

Haha, nice one.

Another tid-bit from this chapter that is worth filing away for future reference--

"Raest drove his senses down into the ground, seeking what dwelt there. Earth and bedrock, the sluggish molten darkness beneath, down, down to find the sleeping goddess--young as far as the Jaghut Tyrant was concerned. "Shall I wake you?" he whispered. "Not yet. But I shall make you bleed." His right hand closed into a fist.

He speared the goddess with pain, driving a fissure through the bedrock, feeling the gush of her blood, enough to make her stir but not awaken.

The line of hills to the north lifted skyward. Magma sprayed into the air amid a rising pillar of smoke, rock, and ash. The earth shuddered even as the sound of the eruption swept over Raest in a fierce, hot wind. The Jaghut Tyrant smiled.

Hint: Think about the dating system, i.e., the calendar, that is used in the Malazan world.

@Chris - I missed this the first time round. I'm looking forward to getting to this chapter later in the week.

Also, there's a wonderful little mystery that manifests itself in the confrontation between The Tiste Andii, Serrat, and the unknown character that confronts her on the stairwell as she gets ready to attack Crokus, the 'Coin Bearer'. The clues are there as to who this mysterious person might be, but we don't completely figure it out (or, the motivation) until Chapter Twenty-three.

I just noticed that Hanne noted this little mystery too, up in post #12. I need to read a bit more carefully. ;-)

I did catch that this time around, Yay me? (view spoiler)[Is this when Burn is injured then, and bleeding into the Warrens? Now that we've met her in FoD I definitely mean to track her this time around - she always seemed such a mystery to me first read. (hide spoiler)]

Lori wrote: "I did catch that this time around, Yay me? [spoilers removed]"

Yup, you got it, Lori!

Rob wrote: "Fiddler and crew playing some sort of gambling game with the deck of dragons. It certainly seems like more than a game though."

Ain't that just a peach of a scene! It is almost an overdose of foreshadowing of things to come! Fiddler, affectionately known as 'Fid', is one of my faves in the entire series! And when Fiddler (view spoiler)[ lays his hand on the Deck of Dragons, and does a reading you learn to pay close, close attention (hide spoiler)].

(view spoiler)[One thing I'm really really looking forward to is rereading his final game. I knew it portended everything, but couldn't understand it, and it was KILLING ME! :) (hide spoiler)]

Lee! Put up the rest of the chapters-I dont want to spoil!

Lori wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

I think i'm actually going to need to read those last chapters a second time. such a blur of action to end things up! fabulous.

I find myself wondering whether Otataral's effects actually are unpredictable, or if Baruk was just looking to keep the advantage magic gives him over Rallick (view spoiler)[ who seems like he may be important in later books since he was chosen by the Azath. (hide spoiler)]

My inner alchemist is very curious as to the origins of such an interesting mineral.

It's funny reading the game scene with the deck of dragons and then (view spoiler)[Lorn still has to find out about Sorry a couple pages later. I was like, weren't you paying attention?! (hide spoiler)] I don't remember if out talks about the Virgin of High House Death was outside of spoilers. This spoiler was just in case it wasn't.

Lindsey, it's curious isn't it. One thing that makes SE so enthralling is his knowledge of anthropology, and his use of it in creating this world.

Lori wrote: "Lindsey, it's curious isn't it. One thing that makes SE so enthralling is his knowledge of anthropology, and his use of it in creating this world."

For example, I've always looked at the T'lan Imass as an almost spot-on characterization of our hominid cousin, Homo neanderthalensis. I love his use of his anthropological and archaeological background!

Lee! Put up the rest of the chapters-I dont want to spoil!

I know for a fact that you took great joy in posting that!

how did your revenge taste ;)

Hanne wrote: "The only 'Prince' i can remember seeing in this book is the one leading the Crimson Guard. So the Crimson Guard has entered the game as well and is behind the coin bearer? "

You probably have the answer to this already - but we can work a few things out already. Firstly we have already been forewarned of the Crimson guards involvement with protecting Crokus from chapter 10.
This is from Brood's conversation with Crone

'Quiet, bird,' Brood said. 'The Coin Bearer needs protection, now that Rake's recalled his mages.'
'But who is there to match the Tiste Andii?' Crone asked. 'Surely you don't intend to leave your campaign here?'....

'What do you know of the Crimson Guard?' Brood asked.

I'd forgotten this little tidbit till now. Brood does not want Rake killing Oponn as it will create a power imbalance that could set the gods at war with each other and create havoc on the innocent. So he sends the guard for protection duty.

So the comment from our invisible friend

A low chuckle answered her. 'Compliments of the Prince, Serrat. Take it up with our mutual friend.'

Identifies the protector as a member of the Crimson guard and the "mutual friend" is Caladan Brood himself.

I have to admit I didn't even twig when in chapter 18 when Meese and Irilta are moving Crokus, Irilta says
Got word that there's a couple of guardsmen waiting at Mammot's place – too late, of course, but they've got damn close.'

I had assumed incorrectly, like Irilta, that the guardsmen(ie Crimson guardsmen) were there on Rake's orders.


I'm really liking this complex relationship between Brood and Rake. They are obviously friends and have great respect for each other - but still here they are working at cross purposes. I like this little comment from Rake

Rake smiled bitterly. 'Osric and I argued, as I recall, and it was all Brood could do to keep us apart.

Here we see Rake recount an argument 800 years past, where Brood acted to restrain him when things looked like getting out of hand. So it appears in this relationship that Brood plays the older wiser brother and is a restraining influence on the Tiste Lord.

Some Kruppe Humour is always good

Aye, why, Murillio! Such fortune as Kruppe is known for! Thus does your search end, here in this dank, dark street where even the rats shun the shadow.

In other words, what else would Murillio be doing down a dark alley if not looking for Kruppe.


and when Murillio tries to disuade Kruppe from attending the fete
'Well, of course Kruppe will attend! Do you think Lady Simtal would ever show herself if her long-time acquaintance, Kruppe the First, was not in attendance? Why, she'd wither with shame!'
'Dammit, you've never even met Simtal!'
'Not relevant to Kruppe's argument, friend Murillio.

Apparently Kruppe sees no contradiction in long-time acquaintances who have never met.


Kruppe is also the master of disguise

'Rallick will kill you,' Murillio said levelly.
'Nonsense.' Kruppe placed the mask over his face. 'How will the lad ever recognize Kruppe?'
Murillio studied the man's round body, the faded red waistcoat, gathered cuffs, and the short oily curls atop his head. 'Never mind.' He sighed.

It appears a mask can cover a multitude of sins.


And of course Murillio has figured Kruppe is the Eel - but also Baruk has long had the same suspicions

'The Eel, Lord. Darujhistan's master-spy, a figure without a face.'
'A masked face,' the Tiste Andii reminded him.
'If my suspicions are correct,' Baruk said, 'the mask won't help the Eel one bit.'

Apparently Baruk, contrary to Kruppe's opinion, is sceptical of the idea that a mask can cover a multitude of sins


Baruk is concerned that Rake is going to show up at the party disguised as...well as himself

'I've no doubt your attire will be suitable,' Baruk snapped. 'Particularly if you choose the costume of a Tiste Andii warlord.

And Fiddler's game with the Deck of Dragons is fantastic. And if we pay attention - the "game" gives us a nice run down of what's happened to date

Fiddler sat forward. 'Knight of House Dark is the wild card,' he said

So both Baruk and Brood can attest.

'But what about this damned Virgin of Death?'(ie Sorry) groused the healer.
'She's had her teeth pulled. Take a look, the Rope's right outa the picture, ain't he?' Fiddler laid another card. 'And there's the Dragon bastard himself, sword all smoking and black as a moonless night. That's what's got the Hound scampering.'

Again telling us what we already know - Rake is responsible for the Rope releasing Sorry.

There's also mention of the Captain of light? That might be a foreshadowing for later.


We also learn from Raust memories that he enslaved a community of Imass. We also learn, ironically...

Raest had never imagined that other Jaghut would find his activities abhorrent, that they would risk themselves and their own power on behalf of these short-lived, small-minded Imass.

Ironic in that the Imass hate the Jaghut yet the Jaghut were willing to risk everything to liberate this particular community.

And the chapter ends with the 5 dragons of Moon Spawn vs Raest. Excellent.

David Sven wrote: "'Got word that there's a couple of guardsmen waiting at Mammot's place – too late, of course, but they've got damn close.'
I had assumed incorrectly, like Irilta, that the guardsmen(ie Crimson guardsmen) were there on Rake's orders."

I very much read the guardsmen as being of the City Watch sent by D'Arle. I think I still think that. I'm not sure Meese and Irilta would be able to identify an unknown combatant as a Crimson Guardsman.

David Sven wrote: "Here we see Rake recount an argument 800 years past, where Brood acted to restrain him when things looked like getting out of hand."

That is good stuff.

Chaz wrote: "I very much read the guardsmen as being of the City Watch sent by D'Arle. I think I still think that. "

Ah - that could be right too.

Lee wrote: "Lee! Put up the rest of the chapters-I dont want to spoil!

I know for a fact that you took great joy in posting that!

how did your revenge taste ;)"

It was tasty sweet!

Throne and Orb show up in this game and I'm dying to read ICE's book Orb Sceptre Throne now.

Huh?

Fiddler scowled. 'It ain't your business, Adjunct. We been playing for years, nobody's tossed a dagger our way. You want in, just say so. Here, I'll give you your first card.'
Before she could protest he placed a card before her, face up. She stared down at it.
'Now, ain't that odd?' Fiddler remarked. 'Throne, inverted. You owe us all ten gold each—a year's pay for all of us, hell of a coincidence.'
Hedge snorted loudly. 'Also happens to be the Empire Guilt Coin paid to our kin once we're confirmed dead. Thanks a lot, Fid.'
'Take the coin and shut up,' Fiddler snapped. 'We ain't dead yet.'
'I'm still holding a card,' Mallet said.
Fiddler rolled his eyes. 'So let's see the damn thing, then.'
The healer set the card down.
'Orb.' Fiddler laughed. 'True sight and judgement closes this game, wouldn't you know it?'

Lori wrote: "Huh?"

During the game the Bridgeburners play with the Deck of Dragons:

Fiddler talking to Lorn:"Throne, inverted. You owe us all ten gold each-a year's pay for all of us, quite a coincidence."

...

"I'm still holding a card," Mallet said.
Fiddler rolled his eyes. "So let's see the damn thing, then."
The healer set the card down.
"Orb." Fiddler laughed. "True sight and judgment closes this game, wouldn't you know it?"

And in the Glossary at the back:

Unaligned
Sceptre
Orb
Throne

If that is you were talking to me, Lori.

If not...um...nothing to add here. :D

I thought the same thing!

Ah yes that's exactly what I was talking about. This is what happens when I don't read on the group's schedule, but finish the book waaaay ahead. I look like an idiot! Darn I just returned Orb Scepter to the libes without starting it, I ran out of time.