The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This is Week Eleven for Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Eleven - January 28th - February 3rd -> Chapters THIRTY NINE, FORTY, FORTY ONE, and FORTY TWO p. 425 - 476

THIRTY NINE - A Farewell to Ultimate Power, FORTY - My Body, Mind and Affairs, FORTY ONE - To Form Statesmen, Legislators, and Judges, and FORTY TWO - The Knell of the Union

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on November 19th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO RANDOM HOUSE FOR THEIR KINDNESS AND GENEROSITY.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS.

WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus:

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole Thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Welcome,

~~Bryan

by Jon Meacham

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Thirty Nine: A Farewell to Ultimate Power

Jefferson ran up to $8-10,000 of debt while president and he was glad to leave office. He packed up the President's House with the help of Edmund Bacon, while Patsy made sure she remained the center of Monticello life when her father returned.

Chapter Forty: My Body, Mind and Affairs

Jefferson was in good health for most of his retirement. He got up every morning and put his feet in cold water. Those who visited Monticello marveled at the Entrance Hall. It was a place where his political life and scientific interests merged. Busts and works of art filled many rooms of the house, and it was more than just ornament, but instruction. For example, he had displayed portraits of the "three greatest men that have ever lived" -- John Locke, Isaac Newton, and Francis Bacon, in the parlor.

His family idolized Jefferson. He wrote letters, farmed, rode his horses, and still kept in touch with the larger world.

By 1812, Benjamin Rush was able to reconnect Jefferson and Adams and mend their friendship. In the end, they wrote many letters over the last years of their lives.

The War of 1812 broke out and Jefferson supported it.

Chapter Forty One: To Form Statesmen, Legislators, and Judges

It was a difficult war, America was slow to win victories. The Northeast still talked about secession with the Hartford Convention, but the idea was not executed.

Jefferson still faced family issues. Thomas Mann Randolph, Jr. drank more and become debt ridden and erratic. His granddaughter, Ann Cary Randolph, married Charles Bankhead, a abusive alcoholic. Bankhead got into fights with Thomas Mann Randolph and Thomas Jefferson Randolph. Ann died in childbirth in 1826.

Jefferson was always the optimist. He believed in progress and innovation. However, he kept his personal faith his own business.

Two major events were his selling of his library to form the Library of Congress after the British burned the original collection in the war. Also, Jefferson created the University of Virginia. Education was vital to freedom and he wanted Virginia men to stay in-state for their education and not send them to Kentucky or Harvard.

Chapter Forty Two: The Knell of the Union

Jefferson was following the Missouri Compromise issue. He worried without a compromise, the union would dissolve. He saw the slavery issue as a power struggle. The Federalist supported anti-slavery sentiment to gain power. However, in this struggle, he felt powerless and said the solution was up to the next generation. Although he had a mixed race environment at Monticello, he could not see this as a solution for the wider country. In the end, Meacham argues, Jefferson the political animal won out over the moral theorist and he gave up on the issue of slavery.

Jefferson was more and more in debt. He was land rich, but cash poor as he still had old debt, spent lavishly, and took over new debt, especially a $20,000 note from Wilson Nicholas. Jefferson thought about raising funds through a lottery and lobbied the state legislature to approve the plan.

Although his health deteriorated, he remained independent. He dabbled in politics, supporting William Crawford in the 1824 election and discussing the Monroe Doctrine with President Monroe. Lafayette visited Monticello in 1824 as part of his grand tour.

By 1826, Jefferson developed diarrhea, which started the last stage of his life.

Meacham goes into some detail about Monticello.

How many readers have visited the home? If so, what were your impressions of the same rooms Meacham describes?

Bryan wrote: "Meacham goes into some detail about Monticello.

How many readers have visited the home? If so, what were your impressions of the same rooms Meacham describes?"

I have. The room, whole house and grounds leave you with the impression of a man who spent many hours on many interests. It's much more than a colonial home, it's kind of a laboratory for a exceptionally well exercised mind.

I've been there twice. The entrance hall is especially impressive with the Native American and natural artifacts and I thought Meacham described it very accurately.

As Jim suggests above, the entire estate reflects Jefferson's amazingly active and inquisitive mind as well as a sense of organization and attention to every detail.

There are so many things to look at in the house. It definitely reflects a very active mind.

Monticello did a great job in renovating the Entrance Hall in 2003 for the 200 anniversary of Lewis and Clark.

Jefferson's feelings on slavery were complex. You'd like to think if it were 50 years later, he would have been on the side of abolishment. Yet, he knew that at that young time in our country, that it was too big an issue to get resolved without losing the country.

Thanks, David. I think part of him always supported abolition.

Slavery has been talked a lot in our discussion and Meacham finally gives us his take on the issue in chapter 42.

Some have already answered the question, but I will throw it out there since it is covered here:

Do you agree with Meacham's assessment of TJ giving up on this issue and being more the politician than a moral person on this issue?

Bryan wrote: "Thanks, David. I think part of him always supported abolition.

Slavery has been talked a lot in our discussion and Meacham finally gives us his take on the issue in chapter 42.

Some have al..."

Yes. Absolutely. I don't believe he was willing to fight this at that time. Not only because of the political challenges, but the personal ones as well. He couldn't walk that tightrope without falling off.

Bryan wrote: "Meacham goes into some detail about Monticello.

How many readers have visited the home? If so, what were your impressions of the same rooms Meacham describes?"

When I visited Down House, Charles Darwin's home, a few years ago, the first thing that came to my mind were the gardens at Monticello and how it appeared as a great botanical experiment. Of course, Monticello was a working farm and was much larger, but the sense of creativity and inquisitiveness was apparent in both places.

Thanks, G. Meacham makes a good argument.

Interesting about Darwin's home. TJ's gardens were impressive and quite diverse.

We are lucky that Adams and TJ mended their friendship.

If you ever want to read the letters:

Lester J. Cappon

I thought it was interesting TJ saw the Missouri Compromise in the light of Federalist influence.

Bryan wrote: "We are lucky that Adams and TJ mended their friendship.

Agreed. We are much richer (as were Adams and Jefferson) for their reconciliation at the end of their lives. It is interesting that Jefferson did not decide to write a full autobiography or even memoir(s) in retirement. Instead, we have his amazing collection of letters. “Notes on the State of Virginia” is not really a book; his autobiography was aborted; and his “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth” obviously reflects his mindset, but reveals him only in the most indirect way – as editor. This is a fascinating literary legacy for a man who wrote so much and loved books so dearly.

by Thomas Jefferson

I recorded the Ultimate Guide to the Presidents from the History Channel, and the point was made that it was John Adams who, by accepting his electoral defeat, insured the peaceful transition of power and thus the Democracy. What prescient men they were. It was good they were, if not reconciled, at least in dialogue again.

http://www.history.com/shows/the-ulti...

DonnaR wrote: "I've been there twice. The entrance hall is especially impressive with the Native American and natural artifacts and I thought Meacham described it very accurately.

As Jim suggests above, the e..."

I've got to visit Monticello sometime. I was impressed with how much space Meacham gave to its description.

While reading chapter 39, I also realized how few people really governed the United States. Seems like an exclusive club, with different factions.

There was a sentence that I really liked and now I can't find it. Perhaps someone can help me. Meacham basically tells us that we should not judge TJ by the morals of today. Thought it was in either chapter 41 or 42.

I like that Meacham shows us best as possible the man the was TJ without taking away the things that he did accomplish in his lifetime and showing us why he is still regarded as a hero of sorts.

Yea!! I finally finished reading this book . . . I really appreciated the description of Monticello and the additional photos provided by Bryan . . . as I've never been there. I was impressed by Meacham's story of being able to spend the night there . . . what a special opportunity.

The fact that Jefferson went into office a wealthy man and came out of office in debt is a strong indicator of the character of this man. I am sure that he was presented with many opportunities to become a very wealthy man but instead choice the honorable way instead of the way of a greedy man. This one detail makes me personally think of him as one of our great Presidents. Few have gone in rich and come out of office poorer. My how things have changed.

The remarks by Elijah Fletcher almost seem out of place in this book. I do not understand the placement of these negative characterizations of Jefferson. Nothing is mentioned about who Elijah is, his connection to Jefferson other than to say he is a visitor or why we should believe his character assassination.

Joanne wrote: "Bryan wrote: "We are lucky that Adams and TJ mended their friendship.

Agreed. We are much richer (as were Adams and Jefferson) for their reconciliation at the end of their lives. It is interesting..."

Indeed, Joanne. His Bible is interesting in that he cut out all of Jesus' miracles.

Thomas Jefferson

Bryan wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Bryan wrote: "We are lucky that Adams and TJ mended their friendship.

Agreed. We are much richer (as were Adams and Jefferson) for their reconciliation at the end of their lives. It..."

Miracles are definitely not rational. Jefferson likely saw Jesus as a philosopher.

Kathy wrote: "There was a sentence that I really liked and now I can't find it. Perhaps someone can help me. Meacham basically tells us that we should not judge TJ by the morals of today. Thought it was in eithe..."

Here is it:

"Rendering moral judgements in retrospect can be hazardous. It is unfair to judge the past by the standards of the present...Jefferson was wrong about slavery, his attempts at reform at the beginning of his public life notwithstanding." (p. 465-466)

It is interesting that Meacham does argue he did fail in regards to slavery.

Tomerobber wrote: "Yea!! I finally finished reading this book . . . I really appreciated the description of Monticello and the additional photos provided by Bryan . . . as I've never been there. I was impressed by Me..."

It is rare that someone can do stay the night. I don't know, it would be kind of creepy...lol.

Clayton wrote: "The fact that Jefferson went into office a wealthy man and came out of office in debt is a strong indicator of the character of this man. I am sure that he was presented with many opportunities to ..."

It seems now that you can become quite rich after being president with speaking tours and book deals.

I liked what Meacham had to say about TJ and debt:

He had trouble making difficult choices. Everyday, he put in his expenses but did not look or was afraid to face the larger financial picture. Also, borrowing was part of the culture.

Clayton wrote: "The remarks by Elijah Fletcher almost seem out of place in this book. I do not understand the placement of these negative characterizations of Jefferson. Nothing is mentioned about who Elijah is, h..."

I'm not sure either, maybe to show that he was not loved by everyone.

Elijah Fletcher:

was a 19th century teacher, businessman, and served as mayor of Lynchburg, Virginia for two terms in the early 1830s. He was the publisher of The Virginian newspaper, and was a founding member of St. Paul’s Episcopal Church in Lynchburg.

By the mid-19th century, Fletcher had between 80 and 100 slaves at the plantation. After their emancipation in 1865, several continued to work for pay and live at Sweet Briar. On Elijah Fletcher's death, his daughter, Indiana Fletcher Williams, inherited the plantation. When she passed in 1900, she willed the land and much of her assets to starting the Sweet Briar College for women.
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah_F...)

More:
http://www.faculty.sbc.edu/museum/fle...

Lewis writes:

On page 462, chapter 42, we are given glimpses of the seeds of the Civil War already planted during the days of the early founders. The differing views on slavery and what to do about the issue were already causing anguish. "At the same time, the South and West feared for the future of slavery."

Bryan wrote: "Clayton wrote: "The remarks by Elijah Fletcher almost seem out of place in this book. I do not understand the placement of these negative characterizations of Jefferson. Nothing is mentioned about ..."

Many thanks, Bryan, for this post about Elijah Fletcher. I, for one, would like to know much more about how Jefferson was viewed by his neighbors and the community of central Virginia. Fletcher a was leading local figure. Others may have been vocal (pro and con)about their illustrious neighbor.

Bryan wrote: "Lewis writes:

On page 462, chapter 42, we are given glimpses of the seeds of the Civil War already planted during the days of the early founders. The differing views on slavery and what to do abou..."

It is my belief that history never supplied us with a leader who approached the real the problem of slavery. I'll begin with a question and that is how does a farmer free his slaves in the years before 1861? Does he walk them down to the farm's gate, hand them their few personal items, announce they are free, close the gate, wave goodbye and walk back to the farm house?
This is not a problem of northern states versus southern states versus new states. It's a problem of a economic despairs for each side of the problem separated by my gate above. Imagine a president who turned his back on the north-south squabble and started dragging all parties into solution to my gate problem above. Could there have been a solution where farmer survives and freed slaves prosper without the polarization of the Missouri compromise or even the events of 1861. A true leader, from Washington to Lincoln, would have found a way.

Finally, Meacham confronts Jefferson's slavery problem head on, and he finds Jefferson wanting. He quotes Jefferson:

Page 464
"There is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige of this moral and political depravity," he wrote in 1814, but that was not true. He was not willing to sacrifice his own way of life..."

That sums it up for me. Perhaps we expect too much of Thomas Jefferson.

Can someone give me more information on Jefferson's religious beliefs? I know that he did not believe in the trinity, but did he believe in a personal God and an afterlife? Or did his opinions waver back and forth?

Jefferson was a deist. I suspect that his love of all things natural and his ever inquisitive mind led him to these beliefs. I suspect he had a very difficult time with the readings and the rules set forth in the Old Testament. I doubt he had any leanings toward anyone religion. He was truly a man of the world and not terribly concerned with the afterlife.

Thanks, Clayton. I read in Meacham's book that he left his daughter a note to be opened after his death. It talked about reuniting with his wife and other daughter in the afterlife, but I wondered if he was just trying to comfort her. My Dad was a doctor and he said that he never met an atheist on a deathbed, but I am not so sure.

Ann wrote: "Thanks, Clayton. I read in Meacham's book that he left his daughter a note to be opened after his death. It talked about reuniting with his wife and other daughter in the afterlife, but I wondered..."

Ann, I like your Dad. Jefferson's note to Martha is a very interesting detail. They would be together in death whether that was a void or some kind of a conscious afterlife.

Ann, this might help

http://www.monticello.org/site/resear...

Very interesting, Bryan. He had great respect for the moral views of Christ, but completely rejected the idea that he was divine.

I especially liked his advice to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."