The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This is Week Twelve for Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Twelve - February 4th - February 10th -> Chapters FORTY THREE and EPILOGUE p. 477 - 493

FORTY THREE - No, Doctor, Nothing More and EPILOGUE - All Honor to Jefferson

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on November 19th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO RANDOM HOUSE FOR THEIR KINDNESS AND GENEROSITY.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS.

WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus:

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole Thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Welcome,

~~Bryan

by Jon Meacham

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Forty Three: No, Doctor, Nothing More

Dr. Robley Dunglison saw the ailing Jefferson in June 1826 and kept the patient in bed. Martha was at Jefferson's bedside every day with Thomas Mann Randolph, Jr. and Nicholas Trist watching him at night.

Jefferson tried to meet with Henry Lee to talk about his years as governor, but he was too sick. Jefferson wanted a simple funeral and said good-bye to his family. In his last moments, he asked if it was the fourth of July. He died on July 4, 1826. John Adams died on the same day, as well.

Jefferson was buried in the graveyard where his wife and best friend was buried.

The Hemings were freed. Sally lived her life in Charlottesville.

Epilogue: All Honor Jefferson

Jefferson remains in people's hearts and mind. He is at the same time mortal and immortal. Lincoln respected Jefferson' vision of rights. FDR was a fan of Jefferson, believing Jefferson tried to unify the country, and by doing so, created security. Reagan took Jefferson's vision of small government to heart and believed that reason created order, truth, and meaning out of chaos.

Here is an article on TJ's last words:

http://www.monticello.org/site/resear...

I actually enjoyed the author's notes in this book. So many books I just skip those, but it is worth the time to read them here.

So glad that I could participate in these discussions. I have thoroughly enjoyed these last few chapters.

Meacham makes a strong case for Jefferson's greatness in this summing up. It is easy for us to criticize him for what he did not do, but we should never forget his very real accomplishments in a new and still evolving republic.

I will really miss these discussions. What's next on the schedule?

I also liked the epilogue. It shows how TJ's ideas are indeed immortal.

I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion Clayton and Ann. We plan to do another book in the Presidential Series in the spring. Watch for announcements and voting in the polls :-)

Before the book TJ, to me, was the third president and possible primus inter pares with all presidents. After the print on page 442 TJ now represents a wizard on the mountain accomplished in agriculture, music, multiple languages, the law, governmental constructions and ... an architect and educator. That print of UVa represents what would be a monumental achievement in anyone's life, for TJ is was one of his many facets. So who was TJ? A man of extraordinary accomplishments one of which was the third president of the USA

Thanks, Jim. If he was not president, TJ still would have stood tall in accomplishments.

I like this quote:

"He endures because we can see in him all the varied and wondrous possibilities of the human experience-the thirst for knowledge, the capacity to create, the love of family and friends, the hunger for accomplishment, the applause of the world, the marshaling of power, the bending of others to one's own vision. His genius lay in his versatility; his larger political legacy in his leadership of thought and of men." (p. 487)

Jefferson's Funeral:

http://www.monticello.org/site/resear...

I thought the readers of the Meacham book might be interested in this speech, which was not delivered because of his death, by Franklin Roosevelt for Jefferson Day (something we no longer observe).

http://georgiainfo.galileo.usg.edu/FD...

"In this historic year, more than ever before, we do well to consider the character of Thomas Jefferson as an American citizen of the world."

That's interesting, G. I like how he linked Jefferson to the need to win the war and the peace that would follow.

Just wanted to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the book. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to get a copy of it and discuss it here.

Reading this book really makes one want to read more and more on Jefferson. Great read. Really enjoyed the discussion and the insights that everyone brought to the table.

Clayton wrote: "Reading this book really makes one want to read more and more on Jefferson. Great read. Really enjoyed the discussion and the insights that everyone brought to the table."

I agree. I love the way this books provides an introduction to TJ that draws you into his life and motives and leaves you wanting more. Perfect.

Yeah, I don't remember when we stopped celebrating Jefferson Day, but there is still the Jefferson-Jackson Day/dinner for Democrats.

Glad you joined us David, Clayton, and Kathy.

Bryan,

What are the next books due up in the history group?

Jim

If you go yo our home page, you can find out. We will have another presidential series book in the spring.

Ann wrote: "Meacham makes a strong case for Jefferson's greatness in this summing up. It is easy for us to criticize him for what he did not do, but we should never forget his very real accomplishments in a ne..."

Excellent point Ann, I agree that in the end, his accomplishments were crucial in the development of our country and also that his ideas and writings are still vastly influential even today.

Bryan wrote: "If you go yo our home page, you can find out. We will have another presidential series book in the spring."

That's great news. The Presidential biographies discussions are always may favorite aspect of this group. Looking forward to the next one.

Hello! I am so very happy to have found this club. I only wish I had found it earlier since I finished the book about 2 months ago. I found the book to be very informative- there is a great deal of information that I haven't read elsewhere. I did think however, that Meacham left out information that people who don't know American history will not know. e.g.-In discussing Marborough v Madison he should have given more information. I am personally fairly well versed on it but I would like to have read the author's perspective. I also thought that the last 1/4 of the book was very strong because it contained the passion that I thought was lacking in the rest of the book. That said, I would not stop reading Meacham's books. I have just begun one called American Gospel.

Jim wrote: "Before the book TJ, to me, was the third president and possible primus inter pares with all presidents. After the print on page 442 TJ now represents a wizard on the mountain accomplished in agric..."

It is interesting that Jefferson did not request being President on his grave marker. That in and of itself tells me a lot about the character of the man.

Welcome Colleen. Don't forget to use the proper book citation.

Jon Meacham

Colleen wrote: "Jim wrote: "Before the book TJ, to me, was the third president and possible primus inter pares with all presidents. After the print on page 442 TJ now represents a wizard on the mountain accomplis..."

It is interesting he did not list president. He had so many other accomplishments.

Ok Thanks Bryan. I am happy to do that as long as it is in Chicago method and not APA :)

I hear you. Our citations are much easier :)

Why didn't Jefferson list his presidency on his tombstone? Here's another point of view:

Joseph Ellis in his American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson says that, in contrast to Jefferson's glorious first presidential term, his second was considered a failure, due to the Embargo Act and its repercussions. He acknowledges that the Napoleonic Wars were at the root of these failures, and beyond Jefferson's control.

"Nevertheless, the somber character of the end cast a pall over his entire presidency; it helps explain why he did not choose to list this phase of his public career on his tombstone." p. 284

by Joseph J. Ellis

Thank you for that reference. I have had this book on my shelf for a long time but haven't gotten around to read it. I will need to move it forward. American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson

Ellis makes an interesting point. His second term was not very successful and why advertise. Although it had been almost 20 years later and a war that we held on against Britain.

Joseph J. Ellis

Colleen wrote: "Thank you for that reference. I have had this book on my shelf for a long time but haven't gotten around to read it. I will need to move it forward. American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jeff..."

Every time we mention this book, we need to cite it :)

I wish there had been some more detail about his other accomplishments. Enjoyed the book. It was odd how he held out to the 4th of July to die. Then he and Adams dying on the same day! Even reading this book late, I enjoyed reading all the other comments. Helps you notice things in the book and new ways to look at it.

Thanks for joining us, Patricrk.

Patricrk wrote: "I wish there had been some more detail about his other accomplishments. Enjoyed the book. It was odd how he held out to the 4th of July to die. Then he and Adams dying on the same day! Even rea..."

I actually love it when a book leaves me wanting just a bit more. That way I am encouraged to continue studying; much better than a book that feels like there was too much and I never want to visit the topic again. Just a thought.

I totally agree, Kathy, I'm glad you liked the book.