THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

This book is open for a group/buddy read and comment/discussion starting on the 15th March 2013.


by Jay A. Stout
Description:
Part of the famed U.S. Eighth Air Force, the 352nd Fighter Group was one of World War II’s most decorated flying units. In Fighter Group, Jay A. Stout delivers a gripping account of the “Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney,” so named for the blue-painted noses of the unit’s planes and their base of operations in England.

The 352nd fought the Luftwaffe in 420 missions in the European Theater, accounting for 776 enemy aircraft destroyed—fourth among all 8th Air Force units. Stout takes us into the skies over Nazi Germany as he offers vivid descriptions of fierce aerial combat in P-47 Thunderbolts and P-51 Mustangs, as well as interviews with veterans and after-action reports.

Well I started this book a tad early and so far I'm enjoying it. I found the poem written by George Preddy on the death of his sister quiet touching, page 5:

What is this thing?
This trance I'm in?
I know not what death brings.
I know she's gone,
Her soul has fled,
But to me her sweet voice rings.
She lingers in this very room,
She directs me in my role.
I know she dwells not with the dead,
She lives within my soul.

I've had a busy week. Headed to the coast tomorrow and will start the book when I get down there. Ok, just realized none of you are locals- clarification, I am headed to the Texas gulf coast tomorrow. Saturday the wife and I are going to tour the great carrier Lexington.

Sounds like a fun trip Brad, enjoy your tour of the Lexington!

I enjoyed some of the accounts of the misadventures some of the pilots experienced in their new P-47’s. How about this incident with the Joe Gerst towing a target sleeve from page 26:

“The other day, Joe, after towing the target sleeve for our aerial gunnery, buzzed the field and pulled the lever which is supposed to release the long cable and target. Then he peeled up, dumped the gear, and came in to land.” Unbeknownst to Gerst, the cable and target sleeve did not separate from his aircraft. Unawares, he continued his turning approach to land. Fahrenwald remembered: “Joe dragged the cable, plus a fifty-pound lead weight down through the Republic’s parking lot and beat in about fifty shiny automobile tops, hoods, windshields, and such, and then through the sentry box.” The sentry was found unhurt, albeit speechless. – I don’t blame him!

Rick, thanks we will. Some great airplanes on board, including my favorite, the A-6 Intruder. Looking forward to getting on the porch swing out on our deck and reading the book.

Love the A-6 Intruder - what a classic plane, very envious of your trip :)

I am sure you will enjoy this book while relaxing on your porch swing, maybe with a cold beer?

Another funny account, this time involving the future ace, George Preddy in a P-47, from page 45:

George Preddy, always eager to be in the air, hadn't changed. Ralph Hamilton remembered that the first available aircraft was wrecked almost immediately and that Preddy wasted no time climbing into the next one as soon as it arrived. "He gave us a great buzz job; as he went across the field, he pulled up into a barrel roll. There was no problem, but he soon discovered that his landing gear was still extended. I don't think he ever lived that one down!"


George Preddy's 'Cripes A'Mighty'

Oh, yeah, something cold, definitely. Hey, I've swapped a few emails with Jay Stout. Maybe he would agree to come in and give us a few insights during the read?

Brad wrote: "I've had a busy week. Headed to the coast tomorrow and will start the book when I get down there. Ok, just realized none of you are locals- clarification, I am headed to the Texas gulf coast tomorr..."

Enjoy the tour Brad, I would love to do that sometime.

Brad wrote: "Oh, yeah, something cold, definitely. Hey, I've swapped a few emails with Jay Stout. Maybe he would agree to come in and give us a few insights during the read?"

That's a good idea, you could try and see what happens :)

The Mrs. and I stayed up till about 1 watching Midway last night. Had to get in the naval frame of mind before the trip. Everybody have a great weekend. I'll chime in if I get very far this weekend.

Am away for a few days but will get back into this group read and discussion as soon as I get back. I hope others have started the book and are enjoying the story.

What did other readers think of the sage involving the B-24; Lizzie from the 445th Bomb Group, from pages 72-74? She took a lot of damage and I suppose it's a snap shot of what happened to many of the B-17's and B-24's that were lost over Europe, at least Lizzie made it back from this mission with the help of George Preddy.

I can understand this comment from the top of page 88. Even watching old combat footage of a stricken B-17 tumbling to earth makes me feel emotional for the unknown crew members who you know are still trapped inside the bomber with little or no chance of getting out.

(view spoiler)[The 352nd’s pilots were horrified, just like every other flyer in the USAAF, at the gut-wrenching sight of heavy bombers knocked down by enemy fighters or flak. Each one of the big ships took down the equivalent of a baseball team; the lucky ones among the crews parachuted clear of their stricken ships. “It hurt my stomach every time I saw a bomber get shot down,” remembered Punchy Powell. (hide spoiler)]

Also on pages 88-89 we have a good account from the German ace Heinz Knoke and how he nearly went down with his shot-up Me-109.

For more info on this German pilot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Knoke

And his book:

by Heinz Knoke

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I can understand this comment from the top of page 88. Even watching old combat footage of a stricken B-17 tumbling to earth makes me feel emotional for the unknown crew members who you know are st..."

It is interesting to compare the RAF remarks on losing bombers on the night missions. It seems impersonal, they see them go down but it is just a ship. When Bomber Command tries to restart daylight bombing in fall of 1944, suddenly they are watching their mates go down and it seems to have a much greater impact on morale.

I think that's a very interesting point Mike. I suppose during the night they saw an explosion of light or a burning trail as the bomber went down but they didn't actually see the bomber get hit not like the USAAF crews that were in close proximity to the event and could watch it all happen in front of their eyes. Thanks again for mentioning that Mike as it is a very fascinating observation.

I had a chuckle over Preddy's rescue by the British Air/Sea Rescue after bailing out over the Channel on page 95:

(view spoiler)[Yet finding Preddy and getting the rescue aircraft down on the water and in position to pull him out wasn't the end of the story. Preddy later recalled: "The Walrus ran over me three times before they could get me inside. They damned near killed me! They felt so badly about it they gave me a bottle of brandy to drink on the way to shore." (hide spoiler)]

The story about how they managed to fly back after tearing off one of the Walrus' pontoons was also very interesting.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Also on pages 88-89 we have a good account from the German ace Heinz Knoke and how he nearly went down with his shot-up Me-109.

For more info on this German pilot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He..."

I interviewed and knew Heinz, great guy, loved his beer

I enjoyed his book when I first read it back in the 1980's. An interesting bloke for sure and I bet he would have some great stories to tell over a cold beer!

What did other readers think of these statistics provided by the author on page 122:

(view spoiler)[" .... Indeed, the USAAF flew more than 527,000 effective fighter sorties over Europe during the war but only 7,422 enemy aircraft were destroyed by fighters in air combat. This meant that aerial victories were scored on less than 2 percent of the USAAF fighter sorties against the Luftwaffe." (hide spoiler)]

recently read this book, and despite its
somewhat tabloidy title, it's a fast paced
great read.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Also on pages 88-89 we have a good account from the German ace Heinz Knoke and how he nearly went down with his shot-up Me-109.

For more info on this German pilot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He..."

I enjoyed this story about the P-47 pilot, Gignac, on page 142:

(view spoiler)[At Wallace, a fellow 486th pilot, was a good friend. “We used to kid him a lot because he was so short. In fact, his crew chief made up removable wooden blocks to put on his rudder pedals so he could steer the plane on the ground. Before that, he had to drop his seat so he could reach the rudder pedals and, if you were taxiing beside him, all you could see was the top of his head.” (hide spoiler)]

This account about flying through cloud cover on page 166 was interesting and also funny:

(view spoiler)[It was exhausting work. Every tiny movement or correction of the throttle of flight controls required countermovement. And each countermovement required another countermovement. It was a never-ending series of control inputs that wore pilots out. Punchy Powell recalled one particularly long flog through almost 30,000 feet of clouds. “Finally, one pilot called out over the radio that he’d eat a sack of shit to get out of the clouds. Another guy said, ‘You can start right now brother, because my pants are full of it’.” (hide spoiler)]

I found the discussion in regards to the publicity of USAAF aces on page 171 interesting:

(view spoiler)[Doolittle and William Kepner, the head of VIII Fighter Command, didn’t share Arnold’s concerns. Kepner wrote a note to Doolittle that reflected his coldly real perspective on the topic. “A dead hero is of infinitely more value for inspirational purposes than a live average man. A live hero is even better, but in order to achieve the hero status the distinct possibility of the corpse status must be accepted.” (hide spoiler)]

Some more interesting statistics, taken from page 182 of the book:

(view spoiler)[Statistics reveal a skewed picture of aerial victories within the Eighth Air Force. The Eighth put approximately 5,000 fighter pilots into combat during World War II. Of that number, three out of four – nearly 3,700 – never scored an aerial victory. Indeed, only 261, just more than 5 percent, achieved “ace” status by shooting down five or more German aircraft. However, this small group of fighter pilots was responsible for more than 40 percent of the aerial victories tallied by Eighth Air Force fighter crews. (hide spoiler)]

Preddy's P-51 Mustang:'Cripes A'Mighty':

It was interesting to read about the level of German pilot training compared to the American pilots in 1944, from the bottom of page 209 to the bottom of page 211. This statistic was also pretty staggering, from page 211:

(view spoiler)[On average, German fighter units defending against the USAAF bomber streams lost more than four out of every five aircraft every single month. (hide spoiler)] - author's italics.

It's gratifying to learn that perspectives I thought were interesting or noteworthy are also what engage others. Thanks for noting those Aussie Rick.

My pleasure Jay, its a good book full of interesting fatcts & figures but also the first-hand accounts bring much to the story. I am hoping other group members are enjoying the book as much as I did.

I hope so too.

My intent was to tell the entire story--good and bad--as truthfully as I could while still keeping the reader engaged. And I wanted to be certain that I told a good portion of it through the eyes and voices of the participants.

With that in mind, how do you like Ted Fahrenwald's letters?

Good to meet another historian who writes thorugh the eyes of those who lived it

Colin

Hi Colin--I've seen Amazon bundle our latest books together. I suppose that's a good thing.

Hi Jay,

I've really enjoyed reading Ted Fahrenwald's letters back home. The one on page 166 in regards to his incident whilst flying in cloud was interesting and funny, like this bit:

" ... I now go on instruments exclusively and work for a while to get [the] ship under control Finally the neddle and ball [are] centered and [I] commence a nice 200 mph letdown. Then I glance up and notice a quarter inch of loose dirt piled up on the glass OVER my head. By this oddity I gather that I've been flying inverted for some time ..."

He must have been some character!

By the way if you wanted to post details about any of your WW2 books Jay you can let members know in this thread if you like:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

This was something that I had not heard/read about previously, from pages 253-254:

(view spoiler)[Cameron was also the likely inspiration behind the charitable efforts of the 352nd's enlisted men. As hard as they worked and as important as that work was, they understood full well that they were not in daily danger. Rather, it was their infantry brethren that were giving up their lives to take Europe back from the Nazis. Recognizing that, and wanting to do what they could, the 352nd's NCO club purchased two $500 War Bonds. Of these, one was given to the son of an infantryman killed in combat, while the other was presented to the daughter of another. Goodwin Klinetob spoke for his comrades when he said: "We'd like the infantry to know that we sure appreciate what they're doing." (hide spoiler)]

Thanks for the tipper on the other thread Rick.

Yes, from what I gather, Ted was one of those truly unique characters. He stayed that way until the very end...he passed in 2002, I believe. However, his dear friend "Mac" Mckibben is still very much with us and is a character in his own right. He was the one who took his P-47 boating in Long Island Sound.

Bob "Punchy" Powell is still very active as well. He helped me tons and tons. Had a lot of the unit's actual reports, etc. Don Bryan helped as well, but passed just before the book was published.

Ted actually wrote a book about his time with the Maquis after his aircraft went down. The manuscript sat around since 1946. His daughter shared some of the material with me and I helped steer her to a publisher. It was published last fall. Great little book: "Bailout over Normandy."

There would be some great stories there with that crew, enough for another book maybe :)

For those interested here is the book that Jay mentioned in regards to Ted Fahrenwald:

by Ted Fahrenwald

Jayastout wrote: "Hi Colin--I've seen Amazon bundle our latest books together. I suppose that's a good thing."

I should think so, Adam Makos and I have been selling well together also, as we have two interconnected books.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I enjoyed his book when I first read it back in the 1980's. An interesting bloke for sure and I bet he would have some great stories to tell over a cold beer!"

Knoke and Georg-Peter Eder and I along with Steinhoff, Krupinski and Hartmann has some good times. many others also. I miss them all, only a few left now.

Another thing that's interesting to me about the 352nd is that they had such a slow start. Typically in the wrong place at the wrong time. The fellows were desperately anxious for combat. In fact, only one of the group, Virgil Meroney, made ace from September 43 to March 44 while they were flying P-47s. George Preddy, history's highest scoring Mustang ace only knocked down one during his first tour. There were lots of factors at play, but still it was an agonizing start.

And then...things started happening. Fate/luck is an odd thing.

I suppose like all young men who joined up then and even now, they were all keen to experience combat for themselves and of course to claim their first 'kill' but as you have shown in the book, - wrong place, wrong time for many.

I was very touched to read the account of Joseph Broawater on pages 280-281, from the chapter: Unheralded Heroics.

The story of how Broadwater unselfishly gave his life to protect the bombers and the work done after the war by Thomas Clark, a radar navigator-bombardier aboard the lead B-17, to identify this brave Mustang pilot was truly touching and his story needs to be read.

This was the only information I could find on the Internet about Joe Broadwater:

http://army.togetherweserved.com/army...

I enjoyed the story on pages 327-328 about Don Bryan (in his dress uniform) landing at an allied airfield at Chievres in Belgium after being separated from his unit after a dogfight:

(view spoiler)[After landing he parked next to a P-47 from the 361st Fighter Group, a Ninth Air Force unit. "It was the dirtiest aircraft I had ever seen," he recalled. The Ninth Air Force units flew hard and often, usually from primitive airfields where maintenance was difficult. Consequently, aircraft cleanliness was not a priority.

Bryan noted two pilots standing next to the P-47 who were nearly as filthy as it was. "After I filled out my flight record, I put on my hat, climbed out of Little One III, walked up to them and said, 'Hi, where am I?' One of the pilots looked at me in my dress uniform, glanced over at Little One III gleaming in the sun, then looked back at me and said, 'God damned Eighth Air Force,' and walked away. I never had a chance to tell him that we normally didn't wear dress uniforms on combat missions." (hide spoiler)]

Am glad you liked the Broadwater piece. I sometimes agonize over what to include and what to leave out. In many instances, the material I'm working on at the time...will likely disappear into oblivion if I don't include it in a manuscript. And sometimes that's fine because it's only borderline interesting...and sometimes it's not. There are instances when I hate being a self-assigned arbitrator.

I think it would be hard to work out what to keep and what to disregard but I'm glad you mentioned Joe Broadwater, his story deserves to be told, one of many untold accounts of valour lost to history until now.

Hi Jay, You make a really interesting point - and one I've often through about when I read books - in what to keep in and out as you have this treasure trove of information. Clearly you want to help the "story" along, you can't include everything and I guess you don't want to upset veterans or their families who give the details so freely and probably feel theirs is a key part, or mentions a mate who they want to be remembered. Does this process begin with you wrestling with yourself and then further discussions with your editor?

Hey Geevee,

Publishers pretty much leave me alone. Rarely do they offer suggestions about material. Of course, they (and me!) want to make sure that everything is accurate and that no one is being libeled, etc. But the onus is on the author especially nowadays when publishers just don't have the staff and resources that they used to enjoy.

One of the problems that I wrestle with is whether or not to include material that is similar to something else I've already done. There's only so much room in a book. For instance, there were more than 300 pilots in the 352nd...and 2,000 ground personnel. Not everyone can be in the book. There have been times when I've delberately not included someone with a neat experience just because they were jerks...and times when I included someone when I could have done without their story...just because I liked them and knew they would enjoy seeing their story in print. Perhaps it's not the best practice, but we're all human.

Thanks for the reply Jay. Although it clearly is a challenge at a personal level it most plainly maintains the authority of the book in that it is solely yours, and therefore the craft of weaving the stories together with the human touch must be a pleasure - and a benefit to the reader.

I missed this group read owing to my taking on a whopping WWI history but will certainly be reading your books in the near future.

All the best.