Flights of Fantasy discussion

What's the difference between Urban Fantasy and Sword & Sorcery??

I was working on some cataloging and realized that...I'm not 100% sure anymore! O_O

I normally put books set in an urban environment as UF...but I was just thinking about the Kate Daniels series.

Kate uses a sword. Kate has magic. It's often Kate and her sword against overwhelming odds. Kate's story is set in an urban environment. So is Kate UF or S&S?

What about other magic heavy/blade heavy books?

I would still call that UF. For me, and keep in mind I'm bad at categorizing, the setting trumps the accessories.

I'd consider Kate Daniels UF too. The only Sword & Sorcery books I am sure of is Simon R. Green's Swords of Haven: The Adventures of Hawk and Fisher. Oh wait, someone also listed this under UF... OMG. Now I'm not sure anymore either! :o

If it's set in what appears to be our world or a reasonable alternate thereof, it's Urban Fantasy.

Sword & Sorcery is set in an imaginary world or a loosey-goosey past.

Which is the big and striking difference between those two.

I actually label it as both. I tag all aspects that apply to the book in question.

I label all books that have an Urban setting as a Urban Fantasy. It doesn't matter to me that the setting is Earth based or fantastic. I find that urban settings drastically change the way characters act and interact.

Kat Desi wrote: "I'd consider Kate Daniels UF too. The only Sword & Sorcery books I am sure of is Simon R. Green's Swords of Haven: The Adventures of Hawk and Fisher. Oh wait, someone also listed this under UF... O..."


I catalog H&F as UF, too.

Nyssa wrote: "I actually label it as both. I tag all aspects that apply to the book in question."

I can see that.

Just saw this...late to the party, sorry.

I have listed several books as Urban Fantasy that take place in "traditional" fantasy worlds such as the Eddie LaCrosse novels or the Raine Benares novels. They are set in urban settings with magic used as it often is in the more "recognized UF. Eddie is a PI only he carries a sword rather than a revolver. Raine is a magic using thief. They both spend their time in urban settings and so on.

Seemed they could be on both lists...though some people have taken issue with me on that, rather emphatically.

Nothing like some good old fashioned genre-splitting angst. :)

They sound like Urban Fantasy to me, but my opinion matters as little as anyone else's. Categorize how it works for you. In the end statistics tells me that the real answer is somewhere along the UF -> SS continuum and things are just messy.

I like messy. It keeps me relevant.

I like the way you put fantasies in urban settings in the UF category, regardless of primary/secondary world or historical period issues.

Sword and Sorcery almost always takes place in a secondary world or a fantasized past. Its main characters tend to be morally ambiguous, morally compromised, or faced with moral dilemmas in which none of the options let them off easy. Its worlds tend to be dangerous, and sometimes gritty.

My understanding of Sword and Sorcery is that it's a subgenre that's been distinctly recognizable since the days of the pulps. For instance, Robert E. Howard was publishing Sword and Sorcery stories, mostly in Weird Tales, as early as 1932, and he was prolific throughout the 1930's. (Other writers were also publishign S&S in Weird Tales at the time, but Howard is the one who holds up the best.) So S&S predates Tolkien's first publications as a fantasist (The Hobbit, 1937). Other major S&S writers include Fritz Leiber, author of the Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser stories, and Karl Edward Wagner.

The subgenre's going through a sort of resurgence lately. Lou Anders and Jonathan Strahan published a great anthology, Swords & Dark Magic: The New Sword and Sorcery, that gives a broad overview of the genre's names, themes, and developments over the decades.

Sarah wrote: "The subgenre's going through a sort of resurgence lately. Lou Anders and Jonathan Strahan published a great anthology, Swords & Dark Magic: The New Sword and Sorcery, that gives a broad overview of the genre's names, themes, and developments over the decades. "


I've always enjoyed S&S. I was first introduced via MZB's Sword & Sorceress anthology.

I've also a copy of Swords & Dark Magic. It was decent but not overwhelming.

My current favorite in the genre would be the Drenai Saga...but I've noticed that the way genres have become so muddled lately - a lot more items could fall into this category now.

While S&S does usually feature a morally ambiguous hero - one of the other major factors is that it stars a small group (or person) against overwhelming odds. Which is why I can see the Kate Daniels series fall into both the UF and S&S category.

I'm a huge fan of Gemmell to MrsJ. Have you read any of the Waylander books yet?

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I'm a huge fan of Gemmell to MrsJ. Have you read any of the Waylander books yet?"

Love Waylander! I actually like him a little more than Druss, to be honest.

As a hero I like Druss' stories but the Waylander books are probably my favorite of his Drenai. Don't miss his other work.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "As a hero I like Druss' stories but the Waylander books are probably my favorite of his Drenai. Don't miss his other work."

You know, I was excited to read some of his other works when I discovered he gets a like grimmer. You know I'm a wussy who hates the grimmess. I'd bought the beginning of the Troy saga and then gave it away. (Scaredy cat)

Those are the last he wrote just before he died (his wife finished the series). One of my favorite books by him is Morningstar (of course you know me, I like HEROES). It's a stand alone.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Those are the last he wrote just before he died (his wife finished the series). One of my favorite books by him is Morningstar (of course you know me, I ..."

Oooh! That looks good! And it doesn't look super grim!!!! yaaay!

It has it's moments. I think of Gemmell's work as having realism. If the hero needs to die for the story he does or sometimes he jut gets older and slows down. Still he's one of my favorite writers.

Gemmell's been on my TBR pile for a long time. Part of what's held me back was wondering where to start with him. I'm so glad to see all these suggestions!

If you want there is a chronological list here for the Drenai books. Those aren't however an actual series. It's made up of books about different characters/heros of the Drenai. There are I think 2 Druss books, 3 Waylander books etc. It.s good if you read those in order as they often tell a story of the character's life.

Still there are also stand alone books. I wouldn't start with the Troy books as he wrote only the first before he died of heart failure. His wife finished that series I think.

I've read two Gemmell books, Legend and the first Troy book. Legend was pretty meh though decent, until the ending which made me hate the whole book.

The first Troy book, Lord of the Silver Bow, was excellent. It redeemed the poorly written Legend to me.

Oh, and he wrote the second one too, with his wife finishing the third. I haven't read those, but her solo book, The City, was pretty good.

Sarah wrote: "Gemmell's been on my TBR pile for a long time. Part of what's held me back was wondering where to start with him. I'm so glad to see all these suggestions!"

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "If you want there is a chronological list here for the Drenai books. Those aren't however an actual series. It's made up of books about different characters/heros of the Drenai. There are I think 2..."


I agree with Sensei. Drenai is a little like Prachett's DiscWorld in that there are different cycles for different heroes and/or time periods.

I *think* there are 3 Druss books and 3 Waylander? IDK but I really enjoy the Waylander books the most. Druss' timeline is just chock full of sadness and missed opportunities (for characters).

Did I miss a Druss book????? Have to check on that. Like you Waylander may be my favorite character so I'd searched those out.

Thanks MrsJ.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Did I miss a Druss book????? Have to check on that. Like you Waylander may be my favorite character so I'd searched those out.

Thanks MrsJ."

Let me go check, lol.

Druss:
Legend
The First Chronicles of Druss the Legend
The Legend of Deathwalker


I'm not sure about White Wolf. I don't recall Druss in that one, really.

I don't seem to have The First Chronicles of Druss the Legend. I must never have come across it. Thanks. I'll double check my books and then run it down if I don't have it squirreled away.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I don't seem to have The First Chronicles of Druss the Legend. I must never have come across it. Thanks. I'll double check my books and then run it down if I don't have it squirreled ..."

I liked it but its a little sad. It tells the back story of Druss and Rowena.

Honestly, Waylander's story was sad but he had an ending that...sorta makes up for it.

Druss? He really got the short end of the stick. :(

Yeah, but it tells you a lot about Gemmell and what he believes about duty and responsibility.

(view spoiler)[ I had an audio of one of his books from the library and it had an interview with him after the book. He was talking about fans and fan mail. He said he got a letter from one guy who said he couldn't understand why anyone stayed at Dros Delnoch once it's plain they can only hold the hord back for a while and that they are all going to die fighting to the last. Why wouldn't they just run?

Gemmell said he write the guy back and tolf him just not to read any more of his books as he'd never understand them. (hide spoiler)]

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Yeah, but it tells you a lot about Gemmell and what he believes about duty and responsibility.

I had an audio of one of his books from the library and it had an interview with him after the book...."

I can appreciate that. But the raw deal Druss gets is a little much. Mostly I'm talking about what happens during the course of Druss' life - most of it in "The First Chronicles." I don't want to spoil anything for you but I feel that he was given a hard life and was mostly forced to walk it alone. :(

(view spoiler)[ I assume it must be the story of losing his family? That's a sort of theme with a lot of "heroes". It's how Dakeyras became Waylander (I sgree with you about his end, but then he did manage to "save them". Doctor Who would have fits with that ending as it's a classic paradox loop action. If he saved his family he'd never become Waylander thus he couldn't save his family thus he would become Waylander and save his family this he'd never become waylander....


Oh well, must be a different universe. (hide spoiler)]

:)

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: " redacted."

(view spoiler)[Yes and no. Druss had Rowena and his bard friend but that was it, basically. And the story about what happened with Rowena is a little heartbreaking.

And I have thought about that crazy Waylander issue - plus if Waylander doesn't become Waylander...the warrior priest group would have never been started which means that Dros Delnoch would have to fall and there would never be another Earl of Bronze.

BOOM

brain 'ploed (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[Yeah...no cataclysmic assassination. No need for every one to hunt him down. (hide spoiler)]