Tao Te Ching discussion

Is it possible for one to be so excessively balanced and temperate and moderate...that one is actually..stagnant?

Well, it's been three months since you posted this, but I just saw it today--perhaps you've already come to some conclusions on your own! (Interesting juxtaposition of words--"EXCESSIVELY balanced and temperate and moderate"!)

But this is something that I've wondered about quite a bit too. Although I don't think that it's something meant to be "reasoned out" by the intellect so much, I've gotten the sense that that equanimity and "moderation" and balance does NOT, as one might first think, mean that one should become some kind of limp, passionless dishrag of a person. I think that it actually takes more strength to learn to resist the impulses that we're led to believe are so important--the ones to strive, to contend, to try to control every aspect of our lives (and others' lives). It takes strength to let things take their own course, and to avoid getting into all the arguments and judgements about "right" and "wrong" that people seem to thrive on. I've recently realized that, for myself, the times at which I most feel the urge to argue a point or take a "stance" tend to be the times I should just shut the hell up :) (The exception to that rule is when I see people intentionally causing suffering to others--human or otherwise.)

As for "moderation", I don't think that the Tao Te Ching, or Buddha, or Jesus for that matter (looking beyond the religious dogma on the latter), necessarily advocated wasting away as an ascetic. What is to be avoided is allowing oneself become a "slave" to something--feeling that we NEED things like tasty food, cigarettes, drugs/alcohol, sex, social status, wealth, or whatever. And we don't.

One of my favorite lines attributed to Jesus (and I am NOT a Christian) is in the Gospel of Thomas--simply, "Be passers-by."

Shane wrote: "The gospel of Thomas is not recognized by any of the major churches, so I don't think you need to worry about how you are perceived.

In our culture, it is impossible to be stagnant. My thinking a..."

I believe that we are all addicts, for all of the reasons you mention above, and more, including that fear of death. And I think that the current that runs through most of the great spiritual teachings throughout "history" (the concept of linear time being a tricky thing, I believe), including the Tao Te Ching, are meant to be remedies to that.

And--not that I believe that the non-canonical gospels are entirely "accurate" either--the fact that something like the Gospel of Thomas and some of the other ones are thought to be "heretical" is one of the reasons that I'm not a Christian (and not particularly concerned about how that might be perceived, actually!).

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

As far as you didn't get identified with anythings it seems posssible..

I am a Christian and proud of it, but I certainly feel we can learn from other faiths and their scriptures.

Jane wrote: "I am a Christian and proud of it, but I certainly feel we can learn from other faiths and their scriptures."

I didn't mean to offend Christians, Jane, and it's a good thing to be open to other possibilities and ways of understanding--there are so many! I was just referring to institutional decisions that were made a very long time ago about interpretations.

But I also didn't mean to hijack a conversation about the Tao The Ching and turn it into one about alternative views of Christianity! The TTC is interesting enough in itself. :)

Nancy, you certainly didn't offend. I see what you're saying about dogmatism. The concept that has impressed me the most about the TTC is the concept of 'wu wei'.

Jane wrote: "Nancy, you certainly didn't offend. I see what you're saying about dogmatism. The concept that has impressed me the most about the TTC is the concept of 'wu wei'."

I agree about wu Wei! I found a really good passage about that in a book on the subject by Thomas Merton. I'll try to include some of it here later, when I'm more awake :)

From The Way of Chuang Tzu, by Merton:
"The true character of wu Wei is not mere activity but perfect action...It is not mere passivity, but it is action that seems both effortless and spontaneous because (it is) performed "rightly," in perfect accordance with our nature and with our place in the scheme of things. It is completely free because in it there is no force and no violence. It is not "conditioned" or "limited" by our own individual needs and desires, or even by our own theories and ideas."

I think that that goes back to the original poster's question.

Nice quote Nancy.

...and Felix, to your original point. Keep in mind that the "change", as in the I Ching, lies a the base of all ancient Chinese philosophy. The Chinese believed, as Plato states that Heraclitus taught, "Nothing ever is, everything is becoming."

Thus, stagnation is not an issue as the Taoist is always in balance with the ever-changing Tao. Think of yourself as standing in Heraclitus' river. You need to keep adjusting to the flow in order to keep your balance.

Keep up the quest.

RK-ique wrote: "Nice quote Nancy.

...and Felix, to your original point. Keep in mind that the "change", as in the I Ching, lies a the base of all ancient Chinese philosophy. The Chinese believed, as Plato state..."

Thanks. It was a very helpful explanation for me (and Merton has given me the solution to my temporary dilemma of not being able to think of anyone I wanted to read other than Kerouac. Fortunately, both of them were INCREDIBLY prolific!).

Your post was very helpful, too. Personally, I see it not so much as standing in the river and "adjusting the flow" as being like a leaf or flower whose lightness and ease in adjusting to the flow are what prevent it from being pulled under or smashed along with all the other debris in the currents. But, again, it's not a pointless or weak passivity that lacks concern for the river or the others in it, and it's certainly not "stagnation." (I hope I didn't overdo the metaphor there--just trying to put into words the images in my mind :) ).

Hi Nancy,

Yes, I've actually often summed it up as "go with the flow, but take your own paddle".

Ha--after I wrote my last comment I looked at your profile and saw that you're a canoer (is that the word?), so you ought to know. (The first, and last time I kayaked on a real river with real currents, a few years ago, I admit that I had to do a hell of a lot of paddling and pushing off of rocks and things in addition to "going with the flow". But I imagine that if I gave myself the opportunity to learn how to do it properly, it wouldn't be nearly as exhausting and frantic :) ).

In the Chinese philosophy the law of 5 elements (based on natural cycle of life)as in polarity yin and yang (balance); everything is flow and cycles. 5 elements of water, wood, fire, earth and metal(or represented by seasons of winter, spring, summer, late summer, autumn) entail planting, growing, harvesting, letting go. This applies to our practical lives be it in our actions or thoughts. One flows into another and so on. Sometimes it can seem like we are in a state of being 'stagnant', 'blocked' or 'stuck' in a part of the cycle. This can help signal us to reflect or look within. Perhaps we have put too much or too little energy into planting, growing, harvesting or the inability to let go. The natural flow gets impeded.Yes, to go with the flow intuitively, sometimes put more energy in, sometimes less and hold back, perhaps stop and wait, for new grounds to replenish. But not to flow with our own ego mind, desires, expectations;but Lao Tzu always reminded us to flow with the greater Life :-)

I imagine a tree bending with the wind...

Nancy wrote: "Ha--after I wrote my last comment I looked at your profile and saw that you're a canoer (is that the word?), so you ought to know. (The first, and last time I kayaked on a real river with real cur..."
Yeah, I tried being a canoeist but that felt too much like I should be in a race so I've gone back to being a canoer, even if spell check doesn't like it. I enjoy nothing more than paddling along with the flow only occasionally putting a bit more into my J stroke to avoid a rock or a dead head.

Being attentive to the water and allowing my body to react to its ever moving, downward path has always seemed to me a very Daoist way of existing. The river has no single identity, but is always changing, like the Dao. (I've often thought that Herman Hesse's "Siddhartha" is more Daoist than Buddhist.)

Balance in the canoe is always important but, like moving with the Dao, can become rather effortless except when the flow becomes extreme. This is where Wuzhi comes into play.One has to see the flow and understand it without thinking deeply about it. Here the knowledge must be immediate. This is not always easy to attain. If one hesitates to think, it is quickly too late. On the other hand, if one doesn't come to understanding at all, there is panic. In either case one is quickly over one's head and headed down stream facing the wrong way.

I think that's enough of this metaphor for now. I could go on but it's becoming a bit cloying. It's been fun though.

RK-ique wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Ha--after I wrote my last comment I looked at your profile and saw that you're a canoer (is that the word?), so you ought to know. (The first, and last time I kayaked on a real river..."

I think what I really want to say is that I read the Tao Te Ching as a practical guide to canoeing.

Not "cloying" at all--I can sense very well what you mean. I wish that I'd been better able to do it that way when I did my kayaking trip--it would have been a much easier, and probably more satisfying, 13 miles.

Your third paragraph actually brought to mind my own approach to writing (seeing the flow and understanding it without thinking too deeply about it). I find that if I'm thinking much at all about what I'm writing, and that if I'm going back and making anything more than very minor edits (especially in poetry), I've already gone wrong, and need to start over. My best writing just seems to flow out as if the words have been there in that particular order all along. I'm sure that it's the same for an artist, or a musician, or athlete (or canoeist :) )--whatever one seems to have a natural affinity for.

Reading Patsie's and Jane's comments, I was thinking that it's nice that we can all have our own ways of seeing it, and not have to be concerned about someone coming along and saying that it's the "wrong" way of thinking about it. Whatever works...

Nancy wrote: "Not "cloying" at all--I can sense very well what you mean. I wish that I'd been better able to do it that way when I did my kayaking trip--it would have been a much easier, and probably more satis..."

My writing rarely flows like the canoe on the river. For much the same reason William gave in your discussion on writing in the "On the Road" thread on Jack Kerouac, I tend to get hung up on the rocks. (I can't forget the lyrics to that forgettable song from 1968 by the equally forgettable band, People, "The words should explain but the words won't come.":)_

I suspect it is, to quote Patsie above, "Perhaps [I] have put too much energy into planting, growing, harvesting or the ability to let go." Definitely a case of my "own ego mind". (Of course in my good Taoist thinking, my ego and my mind are, like everything else, simply processes. I should be able to do away with the blockage the way I have the nouns. Easier said than done.)_

...and Patsie seems to be right on course.

Keep writing with the flow.

If I may jump late into this conversation, I'd like to say that my concept of wu wei comes from the martial art of aikido, wherein you take action, you move, you extend your energy, but when you actually throw someone, you find the direction of movement that requires the least amount of effort-- based on where your opponent is directing her energy. When it's really effective, it feels like you're not doing anything. Which makes it quite difficult to learn.

Violet wrote: "If I may jump late into this conversation, I'd like to say that my concept of wu wei comes from the martial art of aikido, wherein you take action, you move, you extend your energy, but when you ac..."

Thanks Violet,

That sounds a lot like Nancy's quote from Thomas Merton at message 11. There seems to be a great deal of consistency in the use of the idea from one discipline to the next.

RK-ique wrote: "Violet wrote: "If I may jump late into this conversation, I'd like to say that my concept of wu wei comes from the martial art of aikido, wherein you take action, you move, you extend your energy, ..."

RK, if you regard wu wei as an essential spiritual truth of existence, "consistency" among disciplines is not too surprising. And I suppose I do, or at least I try to. It's not how I was raised.

Violet wrote: "If I may jump late into this conversation, I'd like to say that my concept of wu wei comes from the martial art of aikido, wherein you take action, you move, you extend your energy, but when you ac..."

My son was taking Tae Kwon Do a couple of years ago, and I was always fascinated when his teacher talked about this concept. I guess it's more difficult for those of us with "Western minds" to think of the martial arts as a discipline in which the least amount of effort, and even aggression (as I understand it), is the goal, and in which one has to learn to conserve energy more than expend it, and for which peace is really the ultimate goal.

I've been tempted to learn it myself, but I am a hopeless klutz.

Nancy wrote: "Violet wrote: "If I may jump late into this conversation, I'd like to say that my concept of wu wei comes from the martial art of aikido, wherein you take action, you move, you extend your energy, ..."
Nancy,
Studying martial arts will make you less of a klutz. You (and I) may progress more slowly than those athletic teenagers, but it's so much fun! And even when you're floundering at the start, you get a sense of your own power.

Violet wrote: "Nancy wrote: "Violet wrote: "If I may jump late into this conversation, I'd like to say that my concept of wu wei comes from the martial art of aikido, wherein you take action, you move, you extend..."

It does look like fun--maybe at some point (although I'm pretty sure that I'm a particularly hard case with the klutziness, and I also have no idea how my son was able to remember the sequences of movements in the various forms!).

Nancy wrote: I also have no idea how my son was able to remember the sequences of movements in the various forms!

Aikido is different in that there are no forms (except for weapons practice), and it is a defensive art--the techniques are all responses to attacks. Like other martial arts and spiritual practices, it has a lot to do with centering, getting calm and grounded. (I am trying to lead us back to the Tao Te Ching here.)