Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

OK final thoughts!

Wow...this is another Heyer I enjoyed much more than I was expecting to! I never believed i could get so emotionally involved in a battle fought two hundred years ago, particularly when a lot of the terms used are Greek to me. But I was, and I found myself almost in tears over characters who weren't much more than names. I was sad over Harry, but I had a feeling as soon as he was introduced that he wasn't going to make it. The most wrenching thing was that Charles couldn't stay with him. I hope George was at least able to bring his body home... (And I hope Dominic really makes Vidal squirm for running away when both his brothers were in the battle.)
I don't believe Barbara will ever completely reform, but I think she's at least grown up enough from the experience that she will stop to think when she's about to do something that will hurt someone. Her first marriage seemed to have frozen her emotional maturity in her teens. I hope she will continue being unconventional, because someone has to defy a few of those rigid social rules! She and Judith should be good for each other now that they've realized they have things in common.
Now I think I'd like to do some reading about the Napoleonic wars and go back to reread this someday when I understand what's going on a little better.

I appreciate Heyer’s achievement in making the Battle of Waterloo and attendant events come alive. Perhaps my dissatisfaction comes from the fact that this isn’t what I read Heyer for; the proportion of sorrow to happiness in the story is too great. Also a structural criticism: I think my attachment to the characters decreased with the number of characters—too many storylines to feel deeply about any.

Nice analysis Abigail. I reread this one last year and confirmed my impression that it is one of Heyer's book I just don't like very much. I missed the humor and found Judith sadly commonplace.

The description of Waterloo was very good though!

Finished & 5 *. I can't believe what a different impression I had of it this time. I'm quite wrung out by all the emotions it inspired in me.

Heyer gave Barbara some of the best lines she has ever written.

I have a better impression of Barbara this time. Dominic comes across as a bit of a ridiculous snob though, doesn't he?

I had mixed feelings about this one. The historical detail was interesting, but a little overwhelming. Since we see events from the British point of view other things that were going on that were important in determining the outcome (like the Prussians' battle of Ligny) were never clear.

I never did really warm to Barbara and I found the other characters a bit flat.

But just for the emotions of battle--the horrors, the glory, the real sense of being there--it was well worth reading!

This is a terrific short article from The Economist that puts the Battle of Waterloo in context and has suggestions for further reading: http://www.economist.com/news/books-a...

"[Wellington] did say in the small hours after the battle was: “Thank God, I don’t know what it is like to lose a battle; but certainly nothing can be more painful than to gain one with the loss of so many of one’s friends.” Nearly all his staff had been killed or wounded. Around 200,000 men had fought each other, compressed into an area of five square miles (13 square kilometres).

When darkness finally fell, up to 50,000 men were lying dead or seriously wounded—it is impossible to say how many exactly, because the French losses were only estimates—and 10,000 horses were dead or dying. Johnny Kincaid, an officer of the 95th Rifles who survived the onslaught by the French on Wellington’s centre near La Haie Sainte farm, coolly declared: “I had never yet heard of a battle in which everybody was killed; but this seemed likely to be an exception, as all were going by turns."

Hana wrote: "I had mixed feelings about this one. The historical detail was interesting, but a little overwhelming. Since we see events from the British point of view other things that were going on that were i..."

I think the history will always be like that. As I remember The Spanish Bride is even more so. But the reality of the misery of it was so well conveyed. I cried (I'm a weeper) at two points - Bab's remorse & Harry dying.

Bab's is a flawed heroine. We don't know what exactly Jasper did, but it certainly left her with a strong desire for freedom. & Worth (who GH portrays as omniscient) has very little hope of their happiness I'm a little more hopeful because Charles now needs her.

I think whatever Jasper did also damaged her sense of self-worth. Her behavior is so self-destructive; it strikes me as the sort of thing abused women will do because they are afraid to be in a relationship and can't believe that anyone would actually love them.

You know, come to think of it, that's really impressive of GH to build in layers of character like that. I may have to rethink my rating ;)

Harry's dying was a gut-wrenching scene!

Hana wrote: "I think whatever Jasper did also damaged her sense of self-worth. Her behavior is so self-destructive; it strikes me as the sort of thing abused women will do because they are afraid to be in a rel..."

Funnily enough, I was thinking of revising my downwards for what GH did to Dominic! But I'm going to let it stand.

GH really didn't need to put him & Mary in the book.

I liked that Perry reappeared. I like to think that he & Harriet were a plot device that GH became fond of & she was worried about their future. I do think Judith & GH were too hard on Harriet. As well as jealous, hurt & young, she was having morning sickness plus two small children (even if she had an army of servants!) She would have had to have been a saint to have reacted any other way!

***Carol*** wrote: "Funnily enough, I was thinking of revising my downwards for what GH did to Dominic! But I'm going to let it stand...."

Ha! That about sums up my inner battle on this one. So good in some places and yet....

& a bit late I guess, but I should mention if anyone hasn't read Regency Buck they should not visit these threads! :)

Edit; I might put that in post one of the first thread.

***Carol*** wrote: "Hana wrote: "I had mixed feelings about this one. The historical detail was interesting, but a little overwhelming. Since we see events from the British point of view other things that were going o..."

I found myself dripping while reading about the return of the wounded to Brussels and how the Belgian shopkeepers wouldn't take money for the lint and water that was needed. And then Bab and Judith out there in the afternoon heat alleviating all of the misery they could, misery that they had never even contemplated... Well, I think I'll take a wee break for my eyes' sake.

I had more of a regard for Judith on this reading! She loves Charles like he is another brother, so she tries to find him a nice wife with money (don't ask me why GH thought Lucy a suitable wife for Charles, yet not for George!) & she is a heroine in the war scenes & blames herself for not sending her son back to England with The Taverners.

I'm surprised GH put all the Audley's at risk though - inheritance in her other books is so important!

Also, anyone reading here who doesn't normally read reviews should check out Hana's - as well as being a good review, Hana has found some excellent illustrations.

Hana is a good strong reviewer.

Hana wrote: "I think whatever Jasper did also damaged her sense of self-worth. Her behavior is so self-destructive; it strikes me as the sort of thing abused women will do because they are afraid to be in a rel..."

I like that reading of her character. It would explain why she flirts with so many suitors but never gets serious with any of them. It is definitely something beyond the usual Alastair "I'm going to do what I want and to the devil with what anyone thinks." attitude.

Does George & Lucy's story remind anyone else of Jane & Frank in Emma?

***Carol*** wrote: "Does George & Lucy's story remind anyone else of Jane & Frank in Emma?"

Yes.

Two Nerdy History Girls on the Duchess of Richmond's ball
http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot....

and
Waterloo and PTSD
http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot....

NineteenTeen also has a post on Waterloo from 5 years ago mentioning An Infamous Army
http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2010...

Wonderful links QNPoohBear. Thanks. I'm still absorbing it all.

I'm wishing that An Infamous Army had an index of character names! Does anyone remember if Heyer mentioned that Blucher was in his 70s at Waterloo? I think a novel of his life would have been beyond interesting, by the way.

Hana, have you read any biographies of him?

I didn't know that, Karlyne and I'm 99% sure Heyer did not mention it. I haven't read a biography, but this one looks very interesting The Hussar General: The Life of Blücher, Man of Waterloo.

Hana wrote: "I didn't know that, Karlyne and I'm 99% sure Heyer did not mention it. I haven't read a biography, but this one looks very interesting [book:The Hussar General: The Life of Blücher, Man of Waterloo..."

It just about makes me want to take another skim through to reread Blucher's part - wow!

I thought Heyer didn't do Blücher justice!

These are two Waterloo non-fiction books I'm hoping to read--maybe starting next week in honor of the anniversary. One is by Bernard Cornwell who is best known for his fictional military history books (bloody and profanity laced but real page-turners): Waterloo: The History of Four Days, Three Armies, and Three Battles. The other is Waterloo: Four Days that Changed Europe's Destiny.

I just read an excerpt from Cornwell's book. One of his interesting points is how close the regular soldier were to their officers: "The murder of the wounded Macara had inflamed the Scots and is a reminder of how good relations were between officers and men in Britain’s army. Again and again, in letters, diaries and memoirs, that mutual affection shines through. Too often the British army of the early nineteenth century is depicted as a mass of whipped soldiers led by aristocratic fops, a picture which is utterly misleading. Most officers came from the middle-classes, clergymens’ sons being especially prominent, and the long wars had honed their skills."

Hana wrote: "These are two Waterloo non-fiction books I'm hoping to read--maybe starting next week in honor of the anniversary. One is by Bernard Cornwell who is best known for his fictional military history bo..."

I can get the Cornwall & may well decide to. His fictional character Sharpe also has a Waterloo book.

There is a wonderful Goodreads excerpt on the book page for Waterloo: The History of Four Days, Three Armies, and Three Battles and he starts with the quote from Wellington about the memories of a battle being like people's memories of a ball!

Hana wrote: "These are two Waterloo non-fiction books I'm hoping to read--maybe starting next week in honor of the anniversary. One is by Bernard Cornwell who is best known for his fictional military history bo..."

That's how Heyer portrayed the military, too, so I'm glad to see that she wasn't alone in her perception!

I remember Harry Smith commenting in The Spanish Bride that there are two kinds of officers -- the "go-ons" and the "come-ons" -- and he was clearly one of the "come-on" type. Looks like the majority of the officers were that way.

Emr wrote: "I remember Harry Smith commenting in The Spanish Bride that there are two kinds of officers -- the "go-ons" and the "come-ons" -- and he was clearly one of the "come-on" type. Looks like the majori..."

I suspect the 'go-ons' didn't last very long in the field!

& I mentioned it in my review that this particular book has been very badly served by the covers it was given. This one is very pretty but doesn't convey the horrors these men faced. This scene never happened. By the time of this one & this they are usually trying to appeal to GH's romance readers. I know part of the reason I reacted unfavourably to this book when younger was I was expecting my usual Heyer & felt cheated.

I'm trying to remember why I wasn't crazy about this the first time that I read it, and I just have a memory of battle scenes. But, on this re-read it is so much more than that!

Karlyne wrote: "I'm trying to remember why I wasn't crazy about this the first time that I read it, and I just have a memory of battle scenes. But, on this re-read it is so much more than that!"

I really feel it's in the marketing. Even a cover of Charles in uniform with Bab would give a better idea of what the book was about.

***Carol*** wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I'm trying to remember why I wasn't crazy about this the first time that I read it, and I just have a memory of battle scenes. But, on this re-read it is so much more than that!"

..."

That is what my cover showed: Bab and an impossibly gorgeous Charles in uniform!

http://allankass.blogspot.co.nz/2012_... Is this it? You will have to scroll down? I love it! Exactly how I visualise Bab?

***Carol*** wrote: "http://allankass.blogspot.co.nz/2012_... Is this it? You will have to scroll down? I love it! Exactly how I visualise Bab?"

The second cover is it!

Karlyne wrote: "***Carol*** wrote: "http://allankass.blogspot.co.nz/2012_... Is this it? You will have to scroll down? I love it! Exactly how I visualise Bab?"

The second cover is it!"

That's pretty good as well - especially the background woman talking behind her fan

***Carol*** wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "***Carol*** wrote: "http://allankass.blogspot.co.nz/2012_... Is this it? You will have to scroll down? I love it! Exactly how I visualise Bab?"

The second cover is i..."

That's the one I have; I love the background and Bab is quite good. But I do not picture Charles that way at all!

I've always pictured him with brown hair, even though I'm pretty sure GH had him with dark hair. That first cover is exactly how I picture Bab!

***Carol*** wrote: "I've always pictured him with brown hair, even though I'm pretty sure GH had him with dark hair. That first cover is exactly how I picture Bab!"

I had never thought of looking up the artists on the covers! That was verrrry interesting!

***Carol*** wrote: "http://allankass.blogspot.co.nz/2012_... Is this it? You will have to scroll down? I love it! Exactly how I visualise Bab?"

What a great website, ***Carol***! My Infamous Army was the first one (the Signet) & I never thought that looked like Charles but I thought Babs was good.
I own many of the others shown too :)

The only one I have is The Grand Sophy. Pity he didn't include the parrot and the monkey!

I just watched a documentary on Waterloo on the Smithsonian Channel. It was pretty gruesome but if you want to see Waterloo the reenactment was very good. They pronounced Grouchy "Groo-shay" or "Groochy" and Blucher they pronounced "Bloo-cher" or "Bloo-key". Now I need to go read Infamous Army again with the rest of you. I didn't join the group read since I read the novel recently.

Heyer wanted to write a book about Waterloo and the romance was secondary in this book. Her description of the actual battle is masterly, the book was a prescribed book for British officers for years.

Charles Audley is one of her nicest heroes. I really liked him. Barbara is more difficult to like, but underneath it all, a decent person.

The scene where her grandparents arrive, reminded me of the scene in Devil's Cub where Dominic arrives at the inn and finds his father with Mary. He sounds just like his father in this scene!

Carolien wrote: "Heyer wanted to write a book about Waterloo and the romance was secondary in this book. Her description of the actual battle is masterly, the book was a prescribed book for British officers for yea..."

The romance really was secondary, but I was surprised at how much the fictional characters were central to the battle. I was much more invested in them than I remembered being; I had remembered the book as being all battle with just a bit of fiction!

I agree, they do make the battle come alive. The book could really do with a proper cast of characters at the start, because it is quite an effort to keep rack of all the military staff.

I desperately wanted to know what Charles and Barbara would do afterwards.

Carolien wrote: "I agree, they do make the battle come alive. The book could really do with a proper cast of characters at the start, because it is quite an effort to keep rack of all the military staff.

I desper..."

I wished for at least an index of "real" characters!

Well, let's see, I'm pretty sure they headed to Paris and took society by storm there. Bab became famous for her soirees, and Charles became the French ambassador, so they glittered in everything they did!

Karlyne wrote: "Well, let's see, I'm pretty sure they headed to Paris and took society by storm there..." Excellent! I really like that scenario :)

Hana wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Well, let's see, I'm pretty sure they headed to Paris and took society by storm there..." Excellent! I really like that scenario :)"

I like it too!

But my scenario (bearing in mind the omniscient Worth didn't hold out much hope for their happiness)

While Charles is convalescent, Bab is an angel nursing him. She is of course penitent. Once Charles is better & they marry while they are still deeply in love, Bab will to a certain extent go back to her old ways. They quarrel & a remorseful Bab mends her ways - till the next time. But GH also shows Bab as being very fond of children. If they have children I can quite picture her being a loving Mum. Careerwise - I'm sure a diplomatic post will be found for a charming intelligent war hero like Charles. & like Karlyne says, I'm sure she would be a brilliant hostess.

Brilliantly written book. I think this romance is even more realistic than Venetia!

NB:I've edited this as it was full of typos!