Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

Steve asked a great question on another thread:

"My question: How do you KNOW the Bible is what you think it is? What tools or evidence or logical processes did you use to make that determination? Thanks in advance."

Now to be fair, we need to apply this investigation to other Holy Books (Or even the opposite: Darwin/Dawkins factual worldview).

We have seen how many people will make equal claims about all books. So how do we get beyond this?

Idk, for non-believers, the Quran is arguably the cliff notes of the bible with some major modifications and additions, so most historical and texual evidence that support the bible also apply to the Quran. It offers a reasonable explaination on both Judaism and Christianity. Since it was written, not a single word has changed. It is also supported by a vast body of witness reports (Hadith) whose reliability have been continuously studied and evaluated for more than 1000 years. Lastly, Islam is now the fastest growing world religion with over 1 billion believers, surely god has something to do with that?

Personally I do think the bible is superior both in its moral complexity and in writing style, but that's too subjective to count as evidence.

It's an interesting proposition that the growth of Islam is sustained by a spiritual force. You would have to conclude also that Christianity, a over 2 billion strong, is also sustained by a spiritual force. Yet Islam opposes Christianity.

fascinating.

Joshua wrote: "It's an interesting proposition that the growth of Islam is sustained by a spiritual force. You would have to conclude also that Christianity, a over 2 billion strong, is also sustained by a spirit..."

Someone mentioned it for Christianity in the other thread so I thought it should be mentioned here too as the somewhat controversal claim of being "the fastest growing religion" is one of the most common line by Islam apologists. Personally I am a bit skeptical if religious claims can be evaluated by evidence and logic alone.

Xdji wrote Personally I am a bit skeptical about if religious claims can be evaluated by evidence and logic alone.


fair point, I would suggest there are spiritual forces behind all religions.

Joshua wrote: "Xdji wrote Personally I am a bit skeptical about if religious claims can be evaluated by evidence and logic alone.


fair point, I would suggest there are spiritual forces behind all religions."

Are there spiritual forces behind those religious movements that support racism, slavery or mass murder?

Personally I don't know a single Christian who has a slave, is racist, or murders the masses.

But I do know some who run prisons, stand against cultural stupidity, and have shot a person or two in the name of justice.

Xdji

Are there spiritual forces behind those religious movements that support racism, slavery or mass murder?

Absolutely, there is darkness and light in the spiritual realm. This is why Jesus Christ said "I am the light". There are many "gods" in this world.

Joshua wrote: "Xdji

Are there spiritual forces behind those religious movements that support racism, slavery or mass murder?

Absolutely, there is darkness and light in the spiritual realm. This is why Jesus Chr..."

Is the "darkness" also created by the same god?

Rod wrote: "Personally I don't know a single Christian who has a slave, is racist, or murders the masses.

But I do know some who run prisons, stand against cultural stupidity, and have shot a person or two in..."

I wasn't talking about Christianity or mainstream Islam. There are Salafi preachers in the Gulf kingdoms openly support slavery, and their disciples recently reestablished it in part of Syria. And there are quite a few new religious movements with link to racism.

Still, is there any way to decide if Islam or Christianity or some other religion is true?

Xdji wrote

Is the "darkness" also created by the same god?

In the biblical worldview God is light and love. Darkness is the absence of light as we know.

I myself do not ascribe to a dualistic view where there is a good God and a bad god.

However the biblical story does include a host of spiritual beings, many of them fallen from the light of God, who influence this world.

The purpose of Jesus Christ is to destroy the work of the adversary Satan who drives men to wickedness. In ancient times one of the main purposes of Abrahamic faith was to divert men's attention away from the many
"gods" or "spirits" of this world to the one creator of life.

In Jesus we see the God of love manifest.

So my understanding is that the further we are removed from the creators love the more self seeking and evil we may become. So he calls us to "repent" which means to turn toward God.

In India I think is the clearest example of the ancient multi-god manifestation of spirits. It exists also in tribal religions, shamanism etc across the globe.

Then we have the two largest religions on the planet both claiming to represent the creator. Islam and Christianity.

Islamic extremists commit their lives to sacrificial war. Christian extremists commit their lives to sacrificial love.

It's that clear for me.

Hindu mythology speaks of a dark outsider god who rises up against the creator seeking to take His place. It echoes the biblical writings of the archangel who exalted himself against the Most High before He was thrust down. It's a story that plays out in all the earth.

Islam usurping biblical writings and seeking to destroy Jews and Christians is the same story. Love will win, Jesus lives.

So is the Quran the word of God?

The problem is: it fails miserably compared to the Bible. For a book that claims to be BETTER than the Bible (YES, all muslims claim this) it is seriously lacking in many areas.

Basically if the Bible did not exist:
The Quran only tells small snippets of Biblical stories - and often the same snippet over 20 times.
It mentions sacrifices and yet does not explain them.
It mentions a Jesus that really doesn't do much of anything - waste of time for someone who the Quran claims is virgin born.

If Allah is the God of the Universe: He is really lazy. He only bothers to mention ONE WOMAN by name in the entire Quran - that's just bad story telling. But it does get it's freak on' by mentioning the heavenly houris (sex slaves?) quite a few times... Is this really a God of peace, love and promise?

But most of all: the Quran has no geography really, no Genealogies, no timeline, almost no context, and my favorite complaint: no mention of how, when or why animal sacrifices came to end for all Muslims.

But it does go into great detail about how Allah will torture people in Hell. The Quran has more in common with Dante's Inferno than the Bible.

The bible and quran are written in defferent genres and the quran is not supposed to be a comprehensive historical narrative. And animal sacrifice in Islam still exists though it is not essential.

I agree with most of your points. However, is it ok to evaluate the validity of other ppl's religious claims according to our own morality?

A universal standard of morality is essential.

Why would a Muslim offer an animal sacrifice? They have no lamb slain for the sins of the world.

Rod wrote: "A universal standard of morality is essential.

Why would a Muslim offer an animal sacrifice? They have no lamb slain for the sins of the world."

"Universal" in the sense of unchangable in all time and place or in the sense of treating everyone as equal? Sharia is supposed to be the universal law in the first sense, though only some believers consider it to be universal in the second sense.

Why do you hate animal sacrifice?

Why do you assume I hate animal sacrifice? God thought it useful for a time.

For a Muslim to seek atonement for their sins defies their entire theology. More good than bad is the goal.

Rod wrote: "For a Muslim to seek atonement for their sins defies their entire theology. More good than bad is the goal."

The purpose of sacrifice is mentioned explicitly in the quran. It is not for atonement for their sins.

And what sura states that? I'm curious - thanks.

Rod wrote: "And what sura states that? I'm curious - thanks."

22:34-22:37. It seems to be mostly about showing their devotion to god while also serves as a kind of charity.

Hmmmm...

Sura 22:36
And the camels and cattle We have appointed for you as among the symbols of Allah ; for you therein is good. So mention the name of Allah upon them when lined up [for sacrifice]; and when they are [lifeless] on their sides, then eat from them and feed the needy and the beggar. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may be grateful.


Sura 22:37
Their meat will not reach Allah , nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good.

Does the Blood pay for sin? Any atonement or credit to your account?
Or is sacrificed animals just a really good B.B.Q. when meat is plentiful?
So really sacrificed animals mean NOTHING in Islam that deals with salvation? It does not point to Jesus or His blood being shed for the sins of mankind.

XDYJ comment: " It is not for atonement for their sins."

And that is why Christianity and Islam have basically NOTHING in common.

The Bible says: Revelation 19:9
9Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God."

It is very important that Jesus is many times called the Lamb. The whole Bible is about Jesus.

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

And the root of it all: Genesis 3
21And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

The first death of animals was by God himself to cover the sins and shame of mankind.

Now choose your next topic:

1) Sexual Heavenly Houris
2) Brutal tortures in Hell
3) Short cuts to paradise
4) relationship with Allah in paradise

How do we know that the Koran is not the word of Allah? I'm not sure that's the right question. I'd ask first, "Who is Allah"? If you go down that path, you'll find out some interesting things, like how "Allah Akbar" means "Allah is greater", because of Allah's relationship to other gods. So do we know that that god actually transmitted his words correctly to Mohammed? You'd have to look at the history of the Koran, and when you do that, you find out that it has an awful lot less physical evidence to support it than the Bible. Then the problem of the "Satanic verses", and finally, you have to make sure you understand the Koran well. The last one means you have to adopt the principle of abrogation - that is the later verses (post-Medina) overwrite earlier ones; thus, Mohammed's words of perpetual war overwrite his earlier words of peace towards Jews and Christians (his life mirrored this development).

Michael wrote: "How do we know that the Koran is not the word of Allah? I'm not sure that's the right question. I'd ask first, "Who is Allah"? If you go down that path, you'll find out some interesting things, lik..."

"Allah" is Arabic for "the god". There is no other deity in Islam besides "the god". Monotheism (tawhid) is taken very seriously in Islam esp. the Salafi variety, as can be seen from the numerous charities, schools, groups and brigades named after it. Tawhid, and the charge of idolatry, also form the central Islamic critique of secularism, liberalism and consumerism, just like in the case of Christianity.

I think it could be argued that Islam is more monotheistic than Christianity.

As for "Allah Akbar", in the bible it says that "You shall have no other gods before Me." Does that mean that the bible is confirming the existence of other gods?

Don't confuse one verse of the Bible with whole thing.
That verse speaks directly to a world full of pagan imaginary deities. But to Christians - verses are clear that no other gods even exist.

Actually Paul says there are many gods. He frequently calls them daemons which is the greek word for gods.

The biblical view is that there are many angels and demons in the world. Moses called the Israelites to turn away from the worship of other gods for the tribes practiced various forms of what we would call today Shamanism. In such cultures the understanding if that special individuals are influenced by a "god" whom they worship and live their lives subject to. For example Socrates claimed to be influenced by a daemon which he called the inner oracle.

Today in western culture they usually call themselves angels instead, and Christians would call them angels or demons depending on their moral intent.

Abrahamic religions have achieved, for most of the world, part of Abrahams purpose which was to teach that there is one true creator who is above all other "gods" who are not really God.

In Hindu culture, for example, they are all stilled called gods.

Jeremiah 2:11
Has a nation changed its gods, even though they are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.

Romans 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Galatians 4:8
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.

2 Chronicles 13:9
But didn't you drive out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites, and make priests of your own as the peoples of other lands do? Whoever comes to consecrate himself with a young bull and seven rams may become a priest of what are not gods.

Psalm 106:20
They exchanged their glorious God for an image of a bull, which eats grass.

Isaiah 37:19
They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by human hands.

Jeremiah 5:7
"Why should I forgive you? Your children have forsaken me and sworn by gods that are not gods. I supplied all their needs, yet they committed adultery and thronged to the houses of prostitutes.

Thankfully there are no other gods in the Bible...or ANYWHERE. Except in people's imaginations.

Idols are not gods. Correct.

"What do I imply then? That food offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I simply imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons." 1 Cor 10:19,20

Great verse Joshua. Thanks.

In response to the question of credibility of the Bible and the Quran, and what evidence/logical processes we'd make to determine this, I'd say the following:

- We'd have to look historical at our sources and the time they were written and how close that is to the actual events but also if the story is the same across sources. I believe this process if what any historian does to find out anything, so it can be applied to Biblical documents. And I believe that it is accepted that Jesus was real and the events of the Bible are generally very consistent with other sources not necessarily in the Bible. But as I'm not super knowledgeable and cannot give you exact example, it might be helpful to read into this.

- Secondly I think the idea of a God is not a ridiculous as some people make it sound. In fact, I think it is harder to believe that there isn't a God. Many philosophies establish that there is a logical necessity for a God.

- Now if we can establish the existence of a God, what makes us know Jesus is that God and what the Bible says is true? Well the crux of the matter is the resurrection. If the resurrection did not happen, then we can say that all Christianity is rubbish. But if we can show that it did it immediately gives Christianity the credibility we're looking for. It means (a) what they're saying in the Bible is true so we should read it and trust it and (b) it also means Jesus is God which means we can trust and should listen to what he says (actually acting out on it and being a Christian is a whole different matter) but it means what Jesus says is true. There are many ways we can show the resurrection occurred. Through evidence we've got but also with evidence we don't. Someone once said (he's a theologian but I keep forgetting who it is) that there's a resurrection-shaped hole in history. We can show that there is not way Jesus body was stolen for example. Why were the first people to see Jesus women when their testimonies were not near as important as a man's? An author of a story would not write that. These are just little, super tiny things and cannot be counted as evidence but together with other stuff we can observe and tell create a picture and this picture is of the resurrection. An interesting read about this is Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ". Here he talks about all the evidence we have to show us that Jesus resurrected. It's a really good read I thought.

- This then leads to the Quran and other religions. Firstly we know that the Quran cannot be the truth at the same time as the Bible. Allah cannot be the Christian God because they do not display the same characteristics. But also, Allah and the Quran do not give Jesus the importance he should have as one born of a virgin and the son of the God. They say many contradicting things. Therefore, they can't both be true at the same time. So why is Christianity more credible? Because of the resurrection. Jesus proved he was God. Muhammad didn't.

- There are also lots of contradictions in the Quran, and some very crazy things about women and non-believers etc that unlike Christianity were never clarified and fixed by someone like Jesus and are still largely part of the religion.

Dunno, I'm sure theologians would know a lot more than I do but in a nutshell based on what I've read that's how I think of.

Muhammad never claimed that he is God or anything other than human so he does not need to resurrect. According to Islam the first person to believe in God's message to Muhammad is also a woman. And historically religious minorities were generally treated better in Islamic societies than Christian ones until a few centuries ago.

Thanks Josette. I love this comment:
". Someone once said (he's a theologian but I keep forgetting who it is) that there's a resurrection-shaped hole in history. "

Another great comment by Josette: "Allah and the Quran do not give Jesus the importance he should have as one born of a virgin and the son of the God."

You ARE a theologian Josette. Maybe unschooled (like a few great ones) but you are getting to the heart of the matter.

Xdyj comment "And historically religious minorities were generally treated better in Islamic societies than Christian ones until a few centuries ago."

Xdyj if you read your Bible carefully you would know there were NO Christian societies a few centuries ago. Just abusive self-righteous people who barely comprehended the scriptures.

Rod wrote: "Xdyj comment "And historically religious minorities were generally treated better in Islamic societies than Christian ones until a few centuries ago."

Xdyj if you read your Bible carefully you wou..."

Many Islamists will also tell you there is no Islamic society in the last 1000+ years, and some communists will tell you that "true communism" was never practiced anywhere either. If you take the bible really seriously, even the bible-belt in United States today is not yet a fully Christian society.

OTOH though, it was only in western Christianity, and not in Islam or any eastern religions, that people eventually discovered freedom and equality as we know them today. So maybe the Christian message has a better potential?

Is it circular argument to say Islam is wrong because it is not Christianity?

A religion has to stand on its own and be internally consistent.
It can't break its own rules.

We'll both religions can't be true at the same time, but I'm not sure. It is still logical to argue that because Christianity is true therefore Islam as a whole is false? But on its own, I don't think Islam has very compelling reasons to be followed (and someone else can completely disagree with me). But no matter what I think and what they think there is one truth, right? And so we're back to the original question - how do we get to that truth?

We'll both religions can't be true at the same time, but I'm not sure. It is still logical to argue that because Christianity is true therefore Islam as a whole is false? But on its own, I don't think Islam has very compelling reasons to be followed (and someone else can completely disagree with me). But no matter what I think and what they think there is one truth, right? And so we're back to the original question - how do we get to that truth?

Also, isn't it illogical to judge a religion based on the standards of another? Like say I say,
oh, the stuff in the Quran about women is totally wrong blah blah, aren't I basing that on my own ingrained moral belief that stem from the society I live in or my Christian background etc?

Yes, it appears Allah doesn't know women very well.

Rod wrote: "Yes, it appears Allah doesn't know women very well."

Could the same be said about the Hebrew bible's YHWH?

Honestly, I kind of think that the Torah's God is far closer to Allah, than the later ideas we get in the New Testament. There's a reason why Marcion felt the way he did.

How many women are named in the Quran?
What do Muslim women get for sex in paradise? Men houris??? Allah didn't bother to say.
Allah thought it okay for a woman to be some bodies fourth wife.

All Christians know the Bible differs greatly on these issues. (Of course - if somebody doesn't carefully read their bible: they may not even agree with the Biblical Jesus/God)

Marcion was a spiritually blind idiot ( if I recall correctly).

In the Hebrew scriptures women were seen as property and had a lesser position than men.

I fail to see where the Hebrew scriptures prohibit polygamy.

As for heaven, there really isn't any mention of it in the Hebrew scriptures, so it's impossible to get any idea of the differences between heaven for women and men.

I still feel the same, read the Torah, then read the Quran and then read the gospel of John. In my opinion John is easily the most different whereas the version of YHWH found in the Torah and Allah in the Quran are similar.

David you're not reading carefully. The Bible doesn't tell us Not to eat our babies on the 9th day. We must be wise when looking through God's word.
If your heart wants to sin - there is freedom to squirm.

Some good but WRONG comments by David.

"In the Hebrew scriptures women were seen as property and had a lesser position than men."

Property? Is a husband NOT a woman's property? Are children NOT a woman's property?
...Did God mention that a man could sell his wife??? NO! Then they are NOT property.
And if it's a slave issue - then men were for sale as well. But that's a whole nother issue.

Hebrew scriptures do prohibit polygamy: The very core of a healthy marriage. God doesn't need to say anything else.
Genesis 2:
24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Or do you take this to mean a woman can have 10 husbands? But to clarify:
Matthew 19:5
and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

1 Timothy 3:12 ties it all together.
12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

...and just for fun: God showed us the chaos that ensues everytime polygamy is present.

David comment:
"As for heaven, there really isn't any mention of it in the Hebrew scriptures, so it's impossible to get any idea of the differences between heaven for women and men."

Where did Elijah and Enoch go up to exactly? And where did they go? To be WITH GOD. Just like Samuel the Prophet in 1 Samuel 28
15Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” 16And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? 17The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”

It appears Samuel was greatly informed about God's plans and significant events on Earth. He was not simply dead and waiting. Same as David looking forward to one day being with His and Bathsheba's sick child: 2 Samuel 12:23
23"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

And how many verses speak of a future paradise? Many. And we should not assume there is any difference for men and women in heaven. Only the Quran makes Paradise into a lusty pornographic fantasy with brothels and Wine.

Jesus summed it up perfectly: Matthew 22:30
…29But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (very single, and not sexually reproducing like bunnies.)

David comment:
" In my opinion John is easily the most different whereas the version of YHWH found in the Torah and Allah in the Quran are similar."

John matches and fulfills the Godliness of the Old & New testament perfectly. Yet Allah has no real use for a Messiah, or a virgin born child. Allah has no absolute cosmic justice. Allah doesn't love sinners, but demands THEY love him - God of the Bible sent a Messiah to die for sinners.

God of the Bible says Hell is punishment enough...
Allah says He will personally torment and burn people's skin and replace it. He will also pour boiling water down people's mouths.

I think an interesting thing about the hebrew bible is that many contain not only tales of good deeds but also bad deeds, and even the righteous people in them are not necessary righteous all the time. It is because of this moral complexity and depth that even many non-believers consider it good literature & a wonderful depiction of the human condition.

We humans are pathetically predictable.