The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

We continue our discussion here. I will be posting my comments later today.

We continue with Lily who loses Gryce to another because she spent time with Selden. She gets money from Mr. Trenor, and appears to be a bit more comfortable for a while. She willing spends the money, and does not appear to worry about the future. Lily has drastic mood swings between frustration at life and joy. She is easily depressed, and her surroundings have great impact on these feelings. Somehow she never views any event in her life as something she caused through her choices.

A tangled web is further woven. More damage to her reputation. Owing more money. She's chased by Mr. Trenor for reciprocation. Yet, most of society takes a hit after a bad autumn on Wall Street. We do see nicer side of Lily when she donates money and visits the women at the Girls' Club, but is it for a moral reason or is it because it makes her feel good?

We are left with a bit of a cliff-hanger. A proposal from Rosedale whose money could solve all of Lily's problems, and an invitation for her to
escape via a Mediterranean cruise.

1. What will happen to the letters received from the char woman?

2. Have the invitations become limited for Lily because she's been seen with Rosedale? Or has society tired of her, in general?

3. What does this novel say about the relationship between women?

4. "She realized for the first time that a woman's dignity may cost more to keep up than her carriage..." (chapter 15). What does this mean? Is it true today?

5. Will Lily marry Rosedale or will she escape on the cruise?

6. How much of Lily's problem are self-made, fate, societal demands, and circumstances?

I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

Re: Deborah's questions:

1. I don't know what is going to happen with those letters, but I feel sure we haven't heard the last of them yet.

2. Lily does not seem to be doing much to cause others to look forward to her company. It sounds as though the gossip about her has become scandalous, not just because she has been seen with Rosedale, but because there are rumors she has taken money from Mr. Trenor, and because she looks foolish as a result of the weekend where she played her hand badly with Gryce.

3. The novel takes an interesting look at several relationships between women. Mrs. Penington seems very unsympathetic with Lily. Bertha Dorset spread vicious gossip about Lily after the weekend when Lily was spending time with Selden, but later they seem to be on much more friendly terms--to the point that Bertha has invited Lily to come with the Dorsets on a cruise. The most interesting relationship, though, is between Lily and Gerty. Gerty seems to like and admire Lily, but then begins to feel a lot of animosity toward her because of Selden. But when Lily shows up at Gerty's door in distress, Gerty does her best to soothe and comfort Lily. Gerty seems to be a kind person, whereas Lily seems very self-centered and self-absorbed.

Lily has made many of her own problems, although she has also had some bad luck. What are the odds Selden would be passing the Trenors' house at precisely the moment Lily was leaving it? But Lily often seems to act like her problems will just go away if she doesn't think about them. I think it is a virtual certainty she will go on the cruise.

Thanks Deborah, very thought provoking. I don't think Lily will marry Rosedale. There was too much anti-semitism in high society at that time so it would have been a social death. Remember, HoM was written only 30 years before the rise of Hitler:(

Those readers who are having difficulty with the novel and with Lily may find these Schmoop points help them to appreciate what Wharton was trying to say to her readers:

http://www.shmoop.com/house-of-mirth/...

One of the things which occurs to me is that Lily seems more like a teenager than a mature woman. She reminds me of teenagers today who dream and scheme about marrying celebrities and whose mothers groom them for stardom on the basis of their looks, not their talent. Did the upbringing of society women like Lily infantilise them, protected as they were from real life?

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Deborah, very thought provoking. I don't think Lily will marry Rosedale. There was too much anti-semitism in high society at that time so it would have been a social death. Remember, HoM was..."

Be aware there is a spoiler on the link. If you haven't read the book before, you will see the ending mentioned. Good info though.

Sorry folks, skip heading 8.

MadgeUK wrote: "Sorry folks, skip heading 8."

No problem Madge. Just wanted to warn those who may not want to see the ending.

Good questions!

#5 -- I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think Lily will choose the cruise. So far, she's all about the next five minutes and not so much the long-term solutions to her problems. I think she feels forced into accepting Rosedale until she's offered the temporary escape of the cruise, and she'll jump at that.

#2 -- I think demand for Lily's company is dwindling partly because there is some disapproving talk circulating about her. It still seems pretty low-key, not yet a full-blown scandal, but enough to cause some raised eyebrows. In addition, I think her position in life is causing her recent unpopularity. She is still well-born, beautiful and charming, but as mentioned in the previous thread, she is quickly running out of steam. She's almost thirty, and that is old-maid territory for an unmarried woman in this time period, beautiful or not. Since her child-bearing years are also dwindling (a rich man looking for a wife to produce heirs would be safer to hedge his bets with a younger woman), she is becoming less desirable to the men, which makes it less likely that she will become the wife of a powerful man. The women who plan these elegant parties and events were the same then as they are today. It's all about drawing the most popular, most desirable people to your event--the people that everyone wants to be around and talk about. A beautiful young woman who is being sought after by numerous bachelors is a prize for a hostess. A poor, on-the-shelf spinster who has seemingly squandered her chances, not so much. She's not there yet--there are still men who find her attractive and want to talk to her, but I think she's getting there, and a savvy hostess knows that. She's slowly being pushed to the sidelines.

I don't understand why Lily cannot marry Seldon. Also am I missing something between Gerty and Seldon. I thought they were cousins, but she has feelings for Seldon.

Cindy wrote: "I don't understand why Lily cannot marry Seldon. Also am I missing something between Gerty and Seldon. I thought they were cousins, but she has feelings for Seldon."

Marriage among cousins was very common during this time. For instance, the royal families of Europe were almost all descendants of Victoria and Albert and intermarried endlessly. Seldon is not a choice for Lily if she wants to preside over a wealthy home and she isn't a good choice for him either since he also is not wealthy and needs to marry a woman with either a very large dowry or an inheritance. I think it is interesting that Lily and Seldon are in pretty much the same situation, but what is expected of her is quite different from what is expected of him...and he will be included in this society even if he never marries the "right" woman.

1. What will happen to the letters is a mystery. Even though Lily seems to have bought them for the right reasons, one cannot help thinking they could be used for very wrong reasons in the end.

2. I agree that her age, her inability to follow through on her friends' efforts to marry her off to the right man, and the whiff of impropriety are the reasons she is not sought after for invitations. If she took Rosedale up on his offer, she would be immediately accepted again...because his money trumps his own social position. Lily represents for Rosedale what Gryce represents for Lily...a way to climb the social ladder and cement his place in this tier of society.

3. I hate to say this, but women are usually the worst enemies of other women. There is jealousy and fear in this group for certain and the fact that Lily is not successful in becoming another miserably married woman makes them even more leery of her.

6. To say that Lily is blameless in her situation would be untrue, but I do feel that she is given a very difficult choice to make and that most people when faced with losing the entire society of their friends and upbringing would find it difficult to make that choice with indifference. I would come down on the side of society being much more to blame than Lily. If she knew she would be a valued part of her group, even if she did not achieve the wealthy status expected of her, she might readily choose to accept a lesser position and be contented.

Sara wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I don't understand why Lily cannot marry Seldon. Also am I missing something between Gerty and Seldon. I thought they were cousins, but she has feelings for Seldon."

Marriage among ..."

Another difference that comes to mind is Selden is at peace with his situation. In last week's reading he indicated he didn't mind having to work. Where Lilly's mantra seems to be I need money.

Sara wrote: "1. What will happen to the letters is a mystery. Even though Lily seems to have bought them for the right reasons, one cannot help thinking they could be used for very wrong reasons in the end.

2...."

With regard to your number 3, I completely agree, and that's what I was seeing as well.

Do you think being married to a Jew would really raise her position in society? Jews weren't allowed in country clubs, some hotels, many privately-run organizations, which is why they set up their own.

I had the same thoughts as Rochelle. Look how reluctant Trenor's wife is to even have Rosedale to dinner, when her husband wants to because it might provide some business advantage.

I wonder if Wharton was aware of how far antisemitism went? Otherwise we have to just pass over it for the sake of the storyline.

For anyone interested in this topic, I recommend Our Crowd
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Crowd-Jewis...

There's also a sequel I haven't read:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Rest-Us-Ame...

Casceil wrote: "I had the same thoughts as Rochelle. Look how reluctant Trenor's wife is to even have Rosedale to dinner, when her husband wants to because it might provide some business advantage." It is the business advantage that will always get him the invite Not because they want him there, but because they need to be associated with him. Lily's initial reaction to Rosedale is very biased, but she is not surprised to find him at the Trenor's party.

Rochelle wrote: "I wonder if Wharton was aware of how far antisemitism went? Otherwise we have to just pass over it for the sake of the storyline.

For anyone interested in this topic, I recommend Our Crowd
http:/..."

I'm guessing here, but feel she was very aware of anitsemitism. I get the feeling that's why Rosedale is in the book.

Edith Wharton seems so attuned to the nuances of society, I'm sure she must have been aware of the prevalence of antisemitism. Like Deborah, I think Rosedale is in the book to make use of that contrast.

Deborah, I want to thank you for your excellent questions on this section. I started reading next week's section, and having reflected on your questions I can better appreciate the development of the story and the characters. I'm particularly glad to have spent time thinking about the relationships between the female characters before moving on to the next part.

Casceil wrote: "Edith Wharton seems so attuned to the nuances of society, I'm sure she must have been aware of the prevalence of antisemitism. Like Deborah, I think Rosedale is in the book to make use of that con..."

I'm so glad the questions were of help. I just make notes as I read as well as questions that I need to answer. Somehow they morph into the discussion questions. :)

You do it very well, Deborah. Having tried myself, with considerably less success, I'm impressed with your results.

Casceil wrote: "You do it very well, Deborah. Having tried myself, with considerably less success, I'm impressed with your results."

(Smile) I just got lucky. I had read the book previously but more than 20 yrs ago. The only thing I remember is the ending :)

Deborah wrote: "I'm guessing here, but feel she was very aware of anitsemitism. I get the feeling that's why Rosedale is in the book. "

So why does Rosedale feel she'll be better off marrying him? They'll be ostracized together. And I promise not to dwell on this topic any more. ;-)

This is a favorite book of mine, having read it twice, or maybe 3 times, and having seen the film 3 times. I haven't been participating because (view spoiler)[the last few chapters are so sad, and I didn't want to put myself through that again. But I've gotten sucked in by curiosity. (hide spoiler)]

Rochelle wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I'm guessing here, but feel she was very aware of anitsemitism. I get the feeling that's why Rosedale is in the book. "

So why does Rosedale feel she'll be better off marrying him?..."

It was not uncommon for members of the merchant class to attempt to buy their way into the rarified circles of the nobility. In England and France, titled nobles who had fallen on hard times repaired their fortunes by marrying the daughters or sons of wealthy merchants--people they would not have given the time of day to in more prosperous times. No doubt Rosedale hopes that marriage to an insider like Lily will make him more socially acceptable to her friends. They may not welcome him with open arms, but they may feel unable to completely turn their backs on their old friend, and grudgingly accept him for her sake.

Rochelle wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I'm guessing here, but feel she was very aware of anitsemitism. I get the feeling that's why Rosedale is in the book. "

So why does Rosedale feel she'll be better off marrying him?..."

I think Rosedale thinks he will be tolerated if he has a socially acceptable wife. He thinks his money will save lily from her problems. After all, she's willing to marry for money alone.

Rochelle wrote: "Every time I see her turning him down, I scream at her in my mind."

She hasn't turned him down. We were left with her considering her options.

In this section I became aware of similarities between Lily Hart and Gwendolen Harleth in George Eliot's Daniel Deronda. The scene with the tableaux vivants particularly struck me, as Gwendolen also indulges in these, relying on her beauty to impress her audience.

Both heroines are poor and totally dependent on their good looks and charm to secure their future; and both are essentially self-centred and shallow, though Lily is more conscious of the nuances of social intercourse than the younger Gwendolen. Wharton picks through Lily's tangled motives in a similar way to Eliot's careful and sympathetic portrayal of Gwendolen.
However, in The House of Mirth there is no glimpse (so far) of the wider intellectual world which offers an alternative life-view in George Eliot's book.

I don't know if Edith Wharton was consciously influenced by George Eliot. Certainly her friend Henry James was. Does anybody else know?