Victorians! discussion

Please use this thread to post background information about Wilkie Collins and his novel, Armadale.

If your post contains potential spoilers, please use the spoiler brackets. Be aware that, as the novel is long and convoluted, what may not be spoilers for you could be considered as such by others. I suggest that any major plot event should be considered as a spoiler.

Wilkie Collins
"A close friend of Charles Dickens' from their meeting in March 1851 until Dickens' death in June 1870, William "Wilkie" Collins was one of the best known, best loved, and, for a time, best paid of Victorian fiction writers. But after his death, his reputation declined as Dickens' bloomed. Now, Collins is being given more critical and popular attention than he has received for fifty years. Most of his books are in print, and all are now in e-text. He is studied widely; new film, television, and radio versions of some of his books have been made; and all of his letters have been published. However, there is still much to be discovered about this superstar of Victorian fiction." (Goodreads)

Armadale
The novel first appeared in book form as a two volume literary edition in May 1866. It sits in the middle of Collins' other most famous works; it was written after The Woman in White (1860)and No Name (1862) but before The Moonstone (1868).

Prior to that, Armadale had been published in serial form in Cornhill Magazine in 20 monthly instalments. The first instalment appeared in the November 1864 issue and the last in the June 1866 issue. It also appeared in Harper's New Monthly Magazine in America in serial form between December 1864 and July 1866.

Free copies of the novel

You can find free electronic copies of the novel in a variety of formats here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1895

There is a Librivox recording, with several different readers contributing, here:
https://librivox.org/armadale-by-wilk...

Great info Pip

Wildbad in Germany's Black Forest, where the Prologue takes place, is a real town. "It is picturesquely situated 420 m above sea level, in the romantic pine-clad gorge of the Enz, a tributary of the Neckar in the Black Forest, 45 km west of Stuttgart and 23 east of Baden-Baden by rail." (Wikipedia)

Here is an engraving from 1860, around the time Collins was writing Armadale and also travelling for medical reasons and to research the novel:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GERMANY-Wildb...

Wikipedia's entry on Wildbad: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Wi...

A review of Andrew Lycett's biography of Collins, Wilkie Collins: A Life of Sensation

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013...

It contains some interesting info about Collins' illnesses around the time he was writing Armadale and is, as far as I can make out, spoiler-free.

Pip wrote: "Here is an engraving from 1860, around the time Collins was writing Armadale and also travelling for medical reasons and to research the novel:
."

Good find!

Google Earth has a very detailed view of Bad Wildbad today. You can even see the path of the Funicular to the top of the mountain. The gorge the town is in looks long and deep -- not much sunlight I would imagine, especially in winter, since it runs north and south, with mountains on both east and west!

Everyman wrote: "Google Earth has a very detailed view of Bad Wildbad today. You can even see the path of the Funicular to the top of the mountain. The gorge the town is in looks long and deep -- not much sunligh..."

Ho ho!! So that's the reason that for one of the first hotels that comes up on TripAdvisor for Bad Wildbad, the review is "Warm, dry, wonderful!" - as if that were definitely not the norm ;-)

Thank you Pip, just finished reading all this info and learned a lot. I have been meaning to research more on Wilkie Collins.

I was wondering: out of the people taking part in the discussion of Armadale, which other Wilkie Collins novels you have read? The reason I ask is partly because I think it would be interesting to discuss some of the recurring themes across his novels.

In theory, this group has read The Moonstone, The Woman in White and No Name in addition to our current reading of Armadale, though many members won't have been here for all of them - and some may have read other titles in addition.

What else have you read by Wilkie Collins, and would you be interested in a separate thread to discuss his novels in general to enhance our reading of Armadale?

Pip wrote: "I was wondering: out of the people taking part in the discussion of Armadale, which other Wilkie Collins novels you have read? The reason I ask is partly because I think it would be interesting to ..."

I have read the other three, but it's been so long ago for The Moonstone I really should only say W in W and NN.

It would be interesting to discuss his novels in general. Does anyone have a preferred biography of Wilkie Collins they would suggest for the group?

Pip wrote: "I was wondering: out of the people taking part in the discussion of Armadale, which other Wilkie Collins novels you have read? The reason I ask is partly because I think it would be interesting to ..."

I've read Woman in White, Moonstone (years and years ago), Armadale, No Name, and The Haunted Hotel. Recurring themes might be interesting regardless of how much Collins one has read

I wasn't in this group when you read The Moonstone, but I've read (and loved!) The Woman in White and No Name. I'd be very interested in reading a biography of Collins if anyone has one to recommend. I think he might be one of my favorite Victorian authors - I just love his "voice".

I couldn't find this at the local bookshop, so I'll be reading from Gutenberg on my laptop again. Which sucks, but I really want to read this one...

I just recently read Woman in White and loved it. A discussion on recurring themes would be great.

Just catching up...
The Woman in White, The Moonstone, No Name, Haunted Hotel, No Thoroughfare (Dickens collaboration)

I've read Armadale, WiW, Moonstone, No Name, Haunted Hotel, Law and the Lady and a few of his shorter stories like The Frozen Deep.

The reason I wanted to check with people before launching ahead with a broader discussion on Collins is that spoilers are inevitable when discussing an entire oeuvre. If we're all happy using spoiler brackets then perhaps it's not such a problem as I'd imagined.

Is everyone into the idea of a concurrent biography read, or could we get by using web links for starting info? I went ahead and bought the Ackroyd biography, simply because it was on the shelves at my local bookshop. It's quite a slim volume, though Ackroyd is usually quite an entertaining read. Then there's the Lycett biography I mentioned in #4. I'm sure there's more around, I just need to find the time to research them!

Pip wrote: "I've read Armadale, WiW, Moonstone, No Name, Haunted Hotel, Law and the Lady and a few of his shorter stories like The Frozen Deep.

The reason I wanted to check with people before launching ahead ..."

I would love to read a biography with the group. I can't read it concurrently though as I'm already way behind. Another option might be to read the biography next, and push back the winning August/September book back a month. Just a thought.

I'm not into the idea of reading a bio on Collins - not now because I don't have much time for it, and not later because I'd rather read Vilette or whatever the novel will be next... We could always make a concurrent bio read optional, for those who want to explore his life further?

This is my first book by Collins. I personally wouldn't be interested in reading his biography, but I normally don't participate in every single group read anyway since I read alot of other genres.

I have too many other commitments through the year. I am really enjoying Armadale, even more than Woman in White (which surprises me). I don't really have an interest in Collins' life story, but then I don't read a lot of biographies. I prefer memoirs, especially for specific circumstances or events.

Thanks to Peter for the following post, including a list of how Armadale was originally serialised:

I have just picked up my copy of Armadale from the bookstore in the Penguin Classics edition. It is a wonderful edition with much information including the serial divisions as they appeared in "Cornhill." What follows is from xxxi of "A Note on the Text."

1. Book the First, Chapter One
2. Book the Second, Chapter One
3. Book the Second, Chapter Two
4. Book the Second, Chapter Four
5. Book the Third, Chapter One
6. Book the Third, Chapter Three
7. Book the Third, Chapter Five
8. Book the Third, Chapter Eight
9. Book the Third, Chapter Ten
10. Book the Third, Chapter Thirteen
11. Book the Fourth, Chapter Three
12. Book the Fourth, Chapter Five
13. Book the Fourth, Chapter Eight
14. Book the Fourth, Chapter Ten
15. Book the Fourth, Chapter Eleven
16. Book the Fourth, Chapter Fourteen
17. Book the Fourth, Chapter Fifteen
18. Book the Fifth, Chapter One
19. Book the Fifth, Chapter Three continued
20. Book the Last, Chapter Three.

I have Andrew Lycett's short A Life of Sensation on my Kindle and it shows what a rogue Collins was. A fuller and more recent biog is the one by Peter Ackroyd, who is always very readable. These two websites have some useful info:

http://www.web40571.clarahost.co.uk/w...

http://www.wilkie-collins.info/

Like Dickens, Collins took up many 'causes' The Law and the Lady  featured an early example of a female detective who protested against the Scottish Not Proven verdict and in the melodramatic Jezebel's Daughter he made a plea for the humane treatment of lunatics whilst Heart and Science  took up the cause against vivisection.

MadgeUK wrote: "I have Andrew Lycett's short A Life of Sensation on my Kindle and it shows what a rogue Collins was. A fuller and more recent biog is the one by Peter Ackroyd, who is always very readable. These tw..."

Thanks for the links, Madge - there's a wealth of information there!

Re the biographies - are you sure the Ackroyd is "fuller" than the Lycett? I'd heard it was the other way around, and there's a difference of about 300 pages between them... I'm very tempted to buy a paper copy of the Lycett too.

Reading the comments here overall, I get the impression that we are split as to whether to read a biography or whether to simply discuss themes without referring to a central work.

I think we should continue to research the biography side of things, but in the meantime, I'll set up a thread where we can discuss Collins' body of work from a thematic point of view, with web links to refer to as we go along.

For a while, I've been feeling that it would be nice to expand the group somewhat to include more factual discussions about the time period - not to replace our (bi) monthly fiction reads, but to complement them.

You may be right about Ackroyd's Collins Pip, it doesn't get such a good review as his Dickens which I greatly enjoyd:

http://gu.com/p/35jnh

Lycett concentrates more on Collins relationships with the women in his life.

I think we would get fewer readers for full biographies and that it is better to deal with the time period by introducing it and biog stuff in the background material for folks to dip into if they wish. I think it might help if the Background thread was put up say a week before the first chapters so that folks had he opportunity to mug up.

I just ordered both biographies, and due to unforeseen circumstances, will end up with some time after next week. I can lead a discussion on one of the biographies if there is enough interest. Let me know what you think.

Deborah wrote: "I just ordered both biographies, and due to unforeseen circumstances, will end up with some time after next week. I can lead a discussion on one of the biographies if there is enough interest. Let ..."

I have neither biography but will happily listen/read the conversation. No doubt I'll have a couple of questions too. I may well get a copy of one of the books if they sound interesting. Thanks

If anybody's on Netgalley, the Ackroyd bio of Collins is on there available for request: https://s2.netgalley.com/catalog/book...

I have read No Name and The Woman in White, loved them both. Reading the biographies is tempting, so I will try if I can find the time.

I actually ended up requesting the Ackroyd bio on NetGalley (couldn't stop myself,) and the publishers approved me so... I'm up for reading it, if anybody's interested in making an optional group read of it.

Dee wrote: "I actually ended up requesting the Ackroyd bio on NetGalley (couldn't stop myself,) and the publishers approved me so... I'm up for reading it, if anybody's interested in making an optional group r..."

Netgalley is new to me, Dee, but it looks like a fabulous opportunity for what they call "professional readers". Frankly, if there are a minimum of two potential "reader-discussers" and several potential "lurker-contributors", I'm more than game. Let me know when you've received your copy, and I'll set us up a thread.

I've got my copy now... One downside of NetGalley is that it's all pdfs or ebooks and not the actual book in paper form. I'm up for discussing, as long as the reading schedule isn't too demanding :)

Dee wrote: "I've got my copy now... One downside of NetGalley is that it's all pdfs or ebooks and not the actual book in paper form. I'm up for discussing, as long as the reading schedule isn't too demanding :)"

Fabulous! As biography-reading would be a relatively new feature, I think the participants can decide the pace more or less. Reading back through this thread, I see that Deborah has also ordered the Ackroyd biography, and even offered to lead a discussion (valiant, but foolish, lady!!). This has potential. I'll have a look through my copy tomorrow and think about a possible time-scale. Perhaps you could do the same and get back to me here?

Will you just be discussing the Ackroyd or biographical details? I have the Lycett but don't want to read the Ackroyd.

I can lead discussion in August on biography.

I've just downloaded the Ackroyd, and I see that it's really short. I say we just divide it in half (Chapters 1-9, then Chapter 10-end,) and read half of it in the next two weeks, and the other half in the two weeks after that. That way, we'll be done wiht it around the time the group finishes Armadale. I don't know about Lycett - maybe those who want to read that one can suggest their pace? I think it would be great to discuss both bios together, but I don't know about waiting until August... Seems nicer to read the bio while reading a Collins book.

Dee wrote: "I've just downloaded the Ackroyd, and I see that it's really short. I say we just divide it in half (Chapters 1-9, then Chapter 10-end,) and read half of it in the next two weeks, and the other hal..."

I understand. I won't be able to lead the discussion for the biography until August. I'm traveling most of July. I will be able to check in, but won't be available to spend the time it takes to properly lead the discussion.

Since you don't have to be a moderator to lead the discussion, I would suggest a member volunteer.

Dee wrote: "I've just downloaded the Ackroyd, and I see that it's really short. I say we just divide it in half (Chapters 1-9, then Chapter 10-end,) and read half of it in the next two weeks, and the other hal..."

That sounds like a good schedule Dee, although I won't be able to start for another week. Shall we aim for July 1st-ish? To be honest, if you're happy for me just to open the discussion threads we might not need a "leader" as such - unless you'd like to give it a go?

July 1st or thereabouts sounds good... I could try and lead the discussion as long as there's not too much pressure for me to be great? :D Not sure how my schedule will be like in a week, but I should be able to manage it.

Dee wrote: "July 1st or thereabouts sounds great... I could try and lead the discussion as long as there's not too much pressure for me to be great? :D Not sure how my schedule will be like in a week, but I sh..."

Dee I'm sure you will be great

Dee wrote: "July 1st or thereabouts sounds good... I could try and lead the discussion as long as there's not too much pressure for me to be great? :D Not sure how my schedule will be like in a week, but I sho..."

Hooray! It's actually not that difficult, Dee - if I can do it, anyone can ;-) When I've created the folder towards the end of the month, I'll send you a PM so that you know it's there, and explain how to add topics.

In the meantime, I'll add the book to our shelves and set it as a forthcoming read.

Pip wrote: A bit later on in Armadale, a character's bonnet and hairstyle is described and I wanted to see what it would have looked like.

An array of Victorian bonnets here Pip:

http://www.victorianbonnets.com/1850&...

And the hairstyles:

http://www.vintagevictorian.com/costu...

Dresses, the heyday of the crinoline and hoop:

http://www.vintagevictorian.com/costu...

Hurle Mere, where the picnic party in our Section 3 takes place, was probably based on Horsey Mere. For pictures of Horsey, including the village itself, its waterways, sand dunes and expanses of reeds, see here: http://www.tournorfolk.co.uk/horsey.html.

There are some photographs of Victorian reed cutters in the Norfolk Broads here: http://www.broadlandmemories.co.uk/pr...

You need to scroll down to "Peter Henry Emerson". The photos are a bit later than Armadale's setting - the 1880s rather than the 1830-40s, but they give you an idea.

Pip wrote: "Hurle Mere, where the picnic party in our Section 3 takes place, was probably based on Horsey Mere. For pictures of Horsey, including the village itself, its waterways, sand dunes and expanses of r..."

Horsey seems quite remote, even today.

Pip wrote: "There are some photographs of Victorian reed cutters in the Norfolk Broads here: http://www.broadlandmemories.co.uk/pr...

You need to scroll down to "Peter Henry Emerson..."

Thanks for the pictures. They gave me a clearer understanding of Collins's setting.

Nothing similar here in Canada.

Reed and sedge cutting still goes on in the broads. They are used for thatching, brooms etc

http://www.norfolkreed.co.uk/pages/ha...

http://brianmizonthatching.co.uk/page...

In Section 6, we come across the sanitarium at Fairweather Vale , which was based on the real Vale of Health in the middle of Hampstead Heath. Collins would have seen the expansion of what was originally a small hamlet during the 1860s.

A potted history of the Vale of Health is here: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/...

And some pictures past and present here: http://www.hampsteadheath.net/vale-of...