Victorians! discussion

Welcome to our discussion of Wilkie Collins’ Armadale!
In this thread, we will discuss the Prologue, which is divided into three chapters:

Chapter 1 – The Travellers
Chapter 2 – The Solid Side of the Scotch Character
Chapter 3 – The Wreck of the Timber Ship

Spoilers are fine up until the end of this section.

Now, pay attention everyone! This is a lengthy Prologue by most standards, and could almost be a sketch for a full-blown Collins-length novel in itself...

Chapter 1. I thought the first chapter was a wonderful piece of scene-setting. The German village awaiting the arrival of the first visitors of the year (medical tourism is not a new thing!) with the local dignitaries in the front row, the band ready to play… It was almost like the tense moments before curtain-up at the theatre.

Chapter 2. I wonder what you all felt about the character of Neal? Blatant national stereotyping aside, why do you think Collins made Neal such a stern, stony and serious character?

Chapter 3. We come across no fewer than five characters calling themselves Allan Armadale in this back-story. Have you got them all clear in your minds?! How did you feel about the dying man’s confession to his son? And the warning he gives him?

The scene is clearly set for a discussion on fate and free will. As the moribund Armadale says:

“I look into the Book which all Christendom venerates, and the Book tells me that the sin of the father shall be visited on the child”
and:
“My son! the only hope I have left for you hangs on a great doubt—the doubt whether we are, or are not, the masters of our own destinies. It may be that mortal free-will can conquer mortal fate”.

I've just started reading, but the intro in my book mentioned Collins was ill before and during the writing of this book. During this time, he did travel for the sake of his health.

Deborah wrote: "I've just started reading, but the intro in my book mentioned Collins was ill before and during the writing of this book. During this time, he did travel for the sake of his health."

There's ill (the sniffles) and ill (all organs shutting down); do you know what sort of ill Collins was suffering from while writing this book?

As a snarky aside, allow me to worry a bit about how lengthy Collins' writing might have gotten while he was sick, with all of that feeling under the weather time to write.

Pip wrote: "Now, pay attention everyone! This is a lengthy Prologue by most standards, and could almost be a sketch for a full-blown Collins-length novel in itself...

Chapter 1. I thought the first chapter w..."

I felt lively curiosity at the dying man's insistence on excluding his wife and the mother of his son Allan Armadale, who will require parental care after his father's death. It makes sense to me that his wife could help look out for Allan Jr.

Lindy-lou wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I've just started reading, but the intro in my book mentioned Collins was ill before and during the writing of this book. During this time, he did travel for the sake of his health...."

History doesn't tell us exactly what it was. He was ordered to stop writing by his doctor so the book, sold prior to its being written, was delayed. He couldn't write for 18 months, then started writing Armadale. He then had a recurrence of the illness and was told not to write.

The name given of the illness was a form of gout but was used in that time for gout, joint illnesses, and even some forms of sexually transmitted disease. Because the term was used so broadly, we don't know what disease he experienced.

Also according to the intro, he had completely preplanned the main portion of the story before he ever started writing it. While traveling for health, he worked on the plan.

So possibly a syphilitic, arthritic, gouty guy with a pen and a passport.

Looks like a grand start to the novel :-)

Just so I'm clear, did the passengers in both carriages travel to Bath for medical reasons? I only read the first chapter so far so maybe I'm jumping ahead. From Jane Austen books I always thought Bath was a social place, but was it a medical center as well?

Lol maybe I'm having a blonde moment, is this a different Bath then Jane Austen's Bath?

I always had the impression that Bath was part "spa" of its time. That the water contained minerals which were restorative. I know there were places to drink the water socially. And I suspect there were other places to soak (most holistic than the average bathhouse) but I'm just speculating on that.

The baths mentioned in the prologue of Armadale are referred to as being in Germany several times. The first is in the first sentence which refers to the baths of Wildbad. The next sentence says that this was a small German town.
Austen's Bath was a town in England.

Thanks for clearing that up, I was having a blonde moment ;)

I'm really enjoying the aspect of mystery in this book so far! I'm so curious as to what Armadale feels is important to get on paper.

I hadn't realised until Rachel brought it up that Wildbad is a real place; I'd assumed Collins had invented it.

Any town with the name "Bad" "___bad" or "Baden" is probably a spa town as the word means "bath(s)". The name, literally "Wildbath", seemed to indicate it was isolated and difficult to get to - whether by private coach or public diligence - and hence I thought it was a made-up name.

It's actually quite near the much more famous Baden Baden. More info here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Wi... . I'll look out some pics and post to the background info thread.

Renee wrote: "So possibly a syphilitic, arthritic, gouty guy with a pen and a passport."

Ha ha ha!

There's a nice article about a biography of Collins which contains the following:

"How did it feel to be Wilkie Collins? .... There is a short answer to this: mostly painful. Collins's correspondence records the agonies of neuralgia, rheumatism, "spasm suffocation" and "gout in the eyes". Work on his novel No Name (1862) was impeded by attacks of "deadly 'all‑overish' faintness". Armadale (1866) was hampered by a searingly sore boil on his groin and an inflammation of his extremities – to which his female companion administered an unusual treatment. ("Caroline to mesmerise my feet," he reported.)"

Full article: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013...

Just read The Guardian link you provided. The Lycett biography sounds fascinating. Thanks Pip.

Peter wrote: "Just read The Guardian link you provided. The Lycett biography sounds fascinating. Thanks Pip."

Pleasure! I've been looking into biographies a bit because Collins' life sounds fascinating. The Lycett has mixed reviews, most detractors saying it's too academic (whatever that might mean). There's also the Peter Ackroyd biog, though some say it's a bit on the short side, and mostly a decent resume of other biographies. Still searching....

Having completed the Prologue to Armadale confirms (to me at least) why a book is much better than an e-reader when one wants to do a close reading.

There was so much to untangle and remember in these first chapters. On my count no less than 5 Alan Armadale's, several settings, characters such as the maid who might reappear again, promises made, pairings of characters, deceptions ... Wow. Oh, for a pen to underline and annotate the book. The text I ordered can't arrive too soon for my liking.

It seems that Collins likes to set up similar pairings of characters (like in The Woman in White) and use letters/epistolary style to form part of his structure.

With the background given to us about Collins's own state of health during the writing of this novel it will be interesting to discover the number of characters who we will find ill, in bed, dying or suffering from severe medical problems.

The novel's title Armadale may lead us to assume the book will be about the male characters and their assertion of rights to that name and its property, but we must remember there are also the women named Armadale who seem to be quite capable of creating their own story lines as well.

As discussion leader, I certainly miss what I now consider the "luxury" of the printed page. I'm a technophile on the whole, and I love my Kindle,but I really miss the flipping to-and-fro - it's not just a question of feeling I'm doing "proper reading", but it's also practical and emotional.

I know I can use Evernote and other apps to keep abreast of my more scholarly moments (like Rachel's blonde moments, but in reverse!!) but it's just so much easier and so much more romantic to write a lovely scribble in a margin.
I'm now finding myself involved with discussion groups about novels I read well over twenty years ago at university; I have copies of some of these novels with the handwritten notes of an 18-year-old which are both nostalgic and questionable! I'm sure I was just copying whatever my lecturer had told me, or what I'd read in some other scholarly reference... But somehow, it's a way of reconnecting with a past me!

Re: Mrs Armadale

Was anyone else struck by how admiring Collins was of Armadale's Carribean wife? We cannot easily expect racial equality in a European Victorian novel, but Collins seems to do a fairly good job of portraying a handsome, virtuous and generally sound woman who is not blonde, blue-eyed and wearing pink chiffon. Move over Dickens?

Pip wrote: "Re: Mrs Armadale

Was anyone else struck by how admiring Collins was of Armadale's Carribean wife? We cannot easily expect racial equality in a European Victorian novel, but Collins seems to do a f..."

YES! I was pleasantly shocked by a Victorian describing the beauty of a non-white character. You always get the typical fair-toned beauties, but people of any other race tend to get little to no physical description other than their race itself.

I too was shocked by the blatant mention of the wife's Caribbean heritage. I'm interested to see the way in which the heritage of the respective mother's (one English, one Cerole) affects or doesn't affect the nature's of the two sons. Race is always a tricky topic in literature of this era; taken into historical context, something that is offensive to a modern reader is often quite progressive for the era. Also, I wonder whether the constant references to Mrs. Armadale's African heritage are less or more offensive then the distaste Collins seems to display in his characterization of Mr. Neal (although I admit to liking Mr. Neal quite a bit, and hoping he pops up later on).

I noticed that too Pip and Jana! She isn't your average Victorian heroine (at least in the prologue, I've yet to see who the hero and heroine are beyond the prologue).
I hope to see more of her. Collins made me feel so sad for her because of how little her husband loved her. On that subject, how fickle he was! He fell in love with someone only by a picture, yet when he has a lovely and adoring wife, he rejects her. How sad.

Pip wrote: "As discussion leader, I certainly miss what I now consider the "luxury" of the printed page. I'm a technophile on the whole, and I love my Kindle,but I really miss the flipping to-and-fro - it's no..."

Being a truly paper book kinda gal, this made me smile. And I'm using an eraser this time. I miss the feel of the book. Funny, I never write in my books, but always have a pad and pen nearby for notes. Must say I'm considering ordering a paper copy :)

Pip wrote: "Re: Mrs Armadale

Was anyone else struck by how admiring Collins was of Armadale's Carribean wife? We cannot easily expect racial equality in a European Victorian novel, but Collins seems to do a f..."

Let's see how the child of Mrs. Caribbean Armadale is mothered, shall we? He's of mixed race heritage, for one thing, and his mother is not a fair-skinned blonde. Could parenting be located in one's melanin or lack thereof?

Pip wrote: "As discussion leader, I certainly miss what I now consider the "luxury" of the printed page. I'm a technophile on the whole, and I love my Kindle,but I really miss the flipping to-and-fro - it's no..."

I, too, have come to consider paper books a luxury because of the space required to store these editions. On the other hand, since my eyesight has changed for the worse as I've aged for the better (!), my Kindle's capacity to be easily switched to a really BIG font is something that has me opting for Kindle editions for most "read-y" books.

Collins certainly starts this book off with a bang. We have five Allan Armadales, an exotic wife of one, a stolen identity, a stolen love, a ship wreck, approximately four illnesses, a natural death, and a murder. Phew.

Collins has also brought up destiny vs. results of free will.

He uses letters and manuscripts, and if the chapter headings are accurate, will also use a diary. He uses these tools in The Woman in White and The Haunted Hotel. He's definitely already put me on the edge of my seat. Sensationalism definitely.

What a prologue!

I planned to read this in chunks until Sunday, but the story had me hooked and I kept on going. I really wonder how the characters of the two sons will develop. Who's going to be the hero and the villain? Or perhaps it won't be so clear cut, and they'll both be complicated characters in their own right.

I predict that the maid will appear again, and be a secondary villain. Mrs. English Armadale - I'm not so sure yet where she will stand morally. Collins put a lot of emphasis on the fact that she was naive and innocent, but brought low by her husband.

So yeah, I'm just expecting a novel with many morally ambiguous characters. And lots of suspense, if the prologue is anything to go by!

Pip wrote: "I look into the Book which all Christendom venerates, and the Book tells me that the sin of the father shall be visited on the child"

A portent of things to come. I read this book years ago and it's just as intriguing the second time around.

Good to see so many of you have joined the read, and I'm glad you're all nicely intrigued!

I've opened the thread for Section 1 today. It's perhaps longer than I'd imagined - it turns out I was going on Nook pages rather than printed pages, but we'll see how things go. I can always break it down into smaller chunks if we find we're getting behind.

Now, let's find out how the Allans Armadale turn out....

It was never revealed just what the Allan Armadale who was disinherited did that his father found so abhorrent or did I miss it?
His behavior that we know of was not the greatest and his death before his wife discovered his true nature is good. She will idolize him the rest of her life. On the other hand, maybe that's better than knowing one's spouse was a lowlife. Then again, knowing one escaped a lowlife spouse would give her the chance to move on. hmmm

Diane wrote: "It was never revealed just what the Allan Armadale who was disinherited did that his father found so abhorrent or did I miss it?
His behavior that we know of was not the greatest and his death befo..."

I didn't see anything about why he was disinherited either.

Diane wrote: "It was never revealed just what the Allan Armadale who was disinherited did that his father found so abhorrent or did I miss it?."

No, you didn't. All we have to go on is "The young man had disgraced himself beyond all redemption; had left his home an outlaw; and had been thereupon renounced by his father at once and forever."

I just finished reading the Prologue yesterday and will catch up with the group this week.

I caved. Bought an actual paperback - Penguin Classic, of course. So much happy with a real book.

Deborah wrote: "I caved. Bought an actual paperback - Penguin Classic, of course. So much happy with a real book."

Wow!!! By the end of this month, we'll all be reconverted to paper!

PS - Now you have a "real" copy, can you tell me if my schedule is as unrealistic as I suspect it might be?!!!

Pip wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I caved. Bought an actual paperback - Penguin Classic, of course. So much happy with a real book."

Wow!!! By the end of this month, we'll all be reconverted to paper!

PS - Now you..."

I will take a look later this evening and message you

How exciting! After that prologue I'm just itching to see what Collins has in store for us.

Also, I keep thinking about one of my old favorites, The House of Seven Gables, which also explores the sins of the fathers and their generational effects. Also, in a gothic-y way. Which I didn't really think of as gothic until Pip shared a link to a hilarious Guardian article while I was reading The Mysteries of Udolpho (finally finished-Yay!).

There's enough drama and intrigue in this prologue to fill up at least a few novels :D

I really like Neal, in spite of what seems like the author's best efforts to portray him as tiresome. He's a nice grounded contrast to all the tears and emotions flying all around him.

Nice bit when the father warns his son to stay clear of the other Armadale, even if he's got to cross the world to avoid him. I predict the opposite will happen, of course, in the style of a Greek tragedy, and that they'll run into each other later on (possibly without knowing who the other is.)

Excitement, wonderful dense and sensual writing.

I just joined the group and I have read this book before. But as Collins is one of my favourite authors I'll read it again and I'll try to catch up so I can add something to this discussion.

Amle wrote: "I just joined the group and I have read this book before. But as Collins is one of my favourite authors I'll read it again and I'll try to catch up so I can add something to this discussion."

Hi Amle! Great to see you here. I'm also re-reading Armadale, and I have to say it's just as much fun the second time around :-)

It definitely is fun to reread anything by Collins. This time around I'm taking notes as soon as a thought or reflection pops up in my head so I can share them, if needed.

One of the things I reacted to that hasn't been brought up already was how the doctor acted.
All the imagery of Collins around the first Mr Armadale makes one think of a dead man or a funeral. The doctor, after one brief look at his new patient, immediately turns to the "widow" to show his sympathy for her upcoming loss. Then he goes off to convince Mr Neal and it makes me wonder; Does he really fail to read the honour Mr Neal feels himself to inhibit or does he say the exactly right thing to manipulate Neal into doing what he thinks is the right thing? I would like to think the doctor knew exactly what he was doing but there wasn't anything to confirm it.

Anyway, it wasn't a major point, just something I thought of as I read it. Collins' characters are always so round and complex in the way they're put together. Always a pleasure to pick them apart.

Another point is how dramatic the dying man's letter is. I would love to have heard Neal's narration of such a passionate piece of writing. The contrast between voice and word, the inflictions from his reactions to what is written.

Pip wrote: "The scene is clearly set for a discussion on fate and free will. "

I'm late to the discussion, so maybe your point has been responded to already, but I really like the way you pull that excellent point out of the Prologue. Collins has almost set us up for a Sophoclean tragedy, hasn't he, with fate inexorably keeping its thumb firmly on the scales? (This isn't a spoiler since I've never read this before, so it's pure speculation, and could be totally wrong. But it's what the prologue seems to me to be suggesting.)

Pip wrote: "We come across no fewer than five characters calling themselves Allan Armadale in this back-story. Have you got them all clear in your minds?! "

I've taken to numbering them -- AA1, AA2, etc. That's the only way I can keep track of who's who.

Pip wrote: "Chapter 1. I thought the first chapter was a wonderful piece of scene-setting. The German village awaiting the arrival of the first visitors of the year "

Reminded me strongly of the (much shorter) prologue of Vanity Fair.

Lindy-lou wrote: "The baths mentioned in the prologue of Armadale are referred to as being in Germany several times. The first is in the first sentence which refers to the baths of Wildbad. "

The baths still claim to be good for your health and well being.

"We invite you to indulge yourself at the Palais Thermal, our beautifully restored spa and sauna bath, said to be among the most beautiful baths in Europe."

http://www.bad-wildbad.eu/

Everyman wrote: "This isn't a spoiler since I've never read this before, so it's pure speculation, and could be totally wrong. But it's what the prologue seems to me to be suggesting.) "

Don't worry too much about speculative spoilers and subtle suggestion here; I think if Collins foreshadows, we can take it point blank that it's going to be important. I'm not a Classics expert (as well you know) but I recognise a Victorian signpost when I see one ;-))

Everyman wrote: "Pip wrote: "We come across no fewer than five characters calling themselves Allan Armadale in this back-story. Have you got them all clear in your minds?! "

I've taken to numbering them -- AA1, AA..."

It gets easier. At least, as the story progresses, there are fewer characters called Allan Armadale...

Pip wrote: "Diane wrote: "It was never revealed just what the Allan Armadale who was disinherited did that his father found so abhorrent or did I miss it?."

No, you didn't. All we have to go on is "The young ..."

Let's hope it wasn't that he seduced a kitchen maid and got her pregnant with a child who will be a sixth Allan Armadale!

Everyman wrote: "Pip wrote: "Chapter 1. I thought the first chapter was a wonderful piece of scene-setting. The German village awaiting the arrival of the first visitors of the year "

Reminded me strongly of the (much shorter) prologue of Vanity Fair."

Oh, yes! The VF Prologue is more discursive and blatantly describes what is to come as a piece of theatre, but the essence and the feel is very similar.