The Malazan Fallen discussion

Spoilers up to chapter Four are ok.
Please mark any other spoilers using the spoiler tags. (when in doubt, use them).

Mappo is keeping things from Icarium for his own good.

Kalam gets stuck with a bunch of Malazans due to a storm.

Felisin is spiraling out of control, and Baudin is in trouble.

Oh then there was some craziness with the (undead? Reborn?) Warlock, the historian, and a bunch of shape shifters. But it was only an illusion or something?

Ugh. I really feel out of my depth here.

I couldn't believe Kalam went into the common room in that Malazan Keep. I know there was a storm, but I would have thought he'd have been a bit more stealthy. Sure enough, we find Lostara was there and following him and a confrontation is brewing!

The Mappo/Icarium stuff in the temple is getting interesting.

It was a bit confusing what happened with the warlock Sormo, Duiker, et al.. or what was actually revealed (or hinted at) with the connection to Tellann and T'lan Imass to that area. I'm sure it will all be cleared up later. I'll file it away as "probably important with potentially huge repercussions".

David wrote: "Ugh. I really feel out of my depth here."

What may help relieve some anxiety for first time readers, I know it certainly did for me, is to see these books almost like history books. Though the books have some wonderful characters, if one takes the perspective of reading about a significant period of time in the history of a world then it becomes (in my mind anyway) easier to deal with gaps of information or having everything not make immediate sense.

I found as well (on first reading) is to not worry too much about understanding everything, that understanding will come in time. This is an epic tale with some absolutely brilliant characters, environment, and action. Re-readers are going to go much more indepth and marvel at all the detail and subtleties. That detail is not necessary for the enjoyment of the books. Some of us are wading way too deep into the minutae of the words. It is fun to do so, but certainly not necessary.

All I can say is in Erikson have faith. Let the larger story roll over you and just enjoy the ride, don't sweat the details.

My $0.02

Oh I responded to this confusion and frustration in the thread of Ch 1.

"I found as well (on first reading) is to not worry too much about understanding everything, that understanding will come in time." YES! GotM came together, right? THis shall too.

Mikeiwo wrote: "David wrote: "Ugh. I really feel out of my depth here."

What may help relieve some anxiety for first time readers, I know it certainly did for me, is to see these books almost like history books. ..."

Mikeiwo, well said, well said. It wasn't until my third read that many of the subtleties began to manifest themselves. The first couple of times reading Deadhouse Gates I just reveled in the breadth and scope of this magnificent saga! I like your suggestion of viewing this as "history" too. Cheers! Chris

Agree, the "history" aspect is one of the things that is most appealing to me about this series. I love a good, fast-paced and story-driven tale as much as the next person, but I really fall in with these epic sagas that do more than just follow a few characters on a journey, opting to build a world rich with history, secrets, and any number of interesting characters and places. Reminds me of that great famous Tolkien quote...

“I much prefer history [to allegory], true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers.”

Well said, J.

This is not easy reading to me, but it is a rich experience for sure.

(btw, Mikeiwo's quoting above somehow said it was quoting me, but it was actually Rob who made the original comment.)

Heh. Yeah. I noticed that too. Not sure how that happened.

Pust is insane just like Shadowthrone! Who is in the shadows of this convergence, pulling the strings for advantage, I wonder what his game is.

I got chills reading about the hidden room, ruins on ruins, cities on top of cities, this is the wonder brought to us by an anthropolist. And this is an ancient world with long gone civilizations that still reverberate in the present. Such history, and I felt the shiver an archeologist must feel when he's at a dig and uncovers a hidden past.

Also interesting Mappo and Icarium list the elder warrens but there's no Shadow. Just one for the Tiste Andii. Food for thought.

The destruction of the Tiste symbols was so creepy, and the gauging a made me think of dragons which makes me wonder if this is where the Tiste became soletaken.

I'm trying to figure out why a demon showed up at Sormo's ritual, to warn them and then try to protect them from the d'ivers?
Loving Iskaral and Icarium and Mappo - strangeness abounds.

The little meeting between Beneth and Sawark was interesting. Beneth, self proclaimed king of the pit and Sawark the Malazan jailer normally have a relatively open working relationship. But suddenly there's a cave in and Beneth's right hand man of sorts ie Baudin is missing. What the...?

Beneth tries to sound out Sawark on the cave in

‘You’ve tallied this morning’s dead? Did you find the name you sought?’ (So the cave in was your idea right?)
‘I sought no particular name, Beneth. You think you’ve guessed something, but there’s nothing there. I’m losing patience.’(Nah ah. Not me)
‘There were four mages among the victims—’ (I don't believe you)

And what Beneth really wants to know

‘I wish the answer to a single question. The slave Baudin was arrested this morning – why?’(You know he's my man. Why am I out of the loop?)

Sawark says it's because Baudin broke curfew. But Beneth knows this doesn't make sense. Why hide it? When Sawark then tries to sound out what Baudin is exactly to Beneth, the slave boss suspects Baudin is no ordinary prisoner.

Then we have this exchange regarding Felisin

‘She’s fifteen, Sawark. But experienced. Arrived but two transports ago.’
The captain’s eyes sharpened on her, and she watched, wondering, as all the blood drained from his face.(Did Felisin just get made as Tavore's sister?)
Beneth surged to his feet. ‘I’ll send another. (And did Beneth just notice Felisin gave the guard captain a heart attack?)


Something is definitely going on. Beneth knows it and drops Felisin like a hot potato.

David wrote: "I couldn't believe Kalam went into the common room in that Malazan Keep. I know there was a storm, but I would have thought he'd have been a bit more stealthy. Sure enough, we find Lostara was th..."

I'm not sure he had a lot of choice there - there wasn't really anywhere else to shelter.
The other interesting thing here is we learn Kalam didn't just serve in the Claw. He was a Clawmaster.
When the Malazan sergeant starts giving him a hard time he pulls out his old ID.

Kalam followed. He withdrew a small pendant from under his telaba and held it up. ‘Do you recognize this, Sergeant?’ he asked softly.
Cautiously, the man leaned forward to study the symbol etched on the pendant’s flat surface. Recognition paled his features as he involuntarily mouthed, ‘Clawmaster.’

Psst, sergeant, I'm 007 and I'm undercover - don't blow my cover ok.


I thought it was funny how the Red Blades come in covered in Chigger fleas. Erikson sets up the gag earlier where Kalam spots the Chigger swarm in the storm and makes to avoid them. The Red Blades weren't so careful.


And we have another reading of the Deck of Dragons so lets pay attention.

First draw

‘All your fates rest upon ... this!’ She laid out the first card.
Kalam barked a laugh.
‘Which one is that?’ one of the guards demanded.
‘Obelisk,’ Kalam said. ‘The woman’s a fake. As any seer of talent would know, that card’s inactive in Seven Cities.’

K'rul uses the Obelisk as a sign - from book one

'I was once a god,' the figure replied. 'Worshipped as K'rul, and my aspect was the Obilisk.

File that away

then the women throws the cards at Kalam in rage and they fall in a pattern

Kalam looked down at the cards. Six surrounded a single, and that single card – he knew with certainty – was his. The Rope, Assassin of Shadow.

Did Kalam just got roped by a god? What is Shadow's interest in Kalam? File away.

the rest of the cards fall

The six cards encircling it were all of one House. King, Herald, Mason, Spinner, Knight, Queen . . . High House Death, Hood’s House all arrayed . . . around the one who carries the Holy Book of Dryjhna.

There are seven people involved in the reading. The four Malazans and the merchant and his wife. Kalam gets the assassin card and the rest get death.

‘Ah, well,’ Kalam sighed, glancing up at the Pardu woman, ‘I guess I sleep alone tonight.’ ie because you are dead if you take this reading seriously.

And that interpretation of the reading worked out as the Red Blades slaughter the Keep before they continue tailing Kalam.

And we find out that Shadowthrone via Pust just happens to be sitting on top of the gate that has all the shapeshifters all excited.

‘Do you intend to lead the D’ivers and Soletaken to the gate below, Iskaral Pust?’

Good question. Whatever is going on, Shadowthrone is neck deep in it.


I love Icarium

‘Well, that was fruitless. What shall we do now, friend?’
Icarium looked surprised. ‘It should be obvious, Mappo. We must take on this perilous quest. We must find Iskaral Pust’s broom.’


Rob wrote: "Oh then there was some craziness with the (undead? Reborn?) Warlock, the historian, and a bunch of shape shifters. But it was only an illusion or something?"

No Illusion. Sormo's ritual is to connect to the aspect of the holy place to see what's going on. It turns out that the place is aspected to the T'lan Imass warren Tellann. It's a real place. And they all shift into it. It's been overrun with shapeshifters.
Sormo guesses

Perhaps the D’ivers and Soletaken are simply passing through the warren – imagining it unoccupied by T’lan Imass and therefore safer. Indeed, no T’lan Imass to take umbrage with the trespass, leaving them with only each other to battle.’

As an aside - the other thing that is implicitly stated here if not before is that the undead T'lann Imass no longer serve the Empire

The undead warriors have turned their backs on the Empress and all that is the Empire, ever since the Emperor’s assassination.’

Once again all sorts of details I miss. I didn't notice the distinction between Kalam being a Claw and a Clawmaster. Though it doesn't surprise me since he's obviously a bad-ass assassin.

Oh and thanks for the clarification on the ritual David.

Hard to catch up with this week's read. Including the Prologue, that was 5 chapters.

Longevity does not automatically bestow wisdom.

Should we take Pust's words seriously as to why Icarium and Mappo haven't ascended? I always imagine him a nutcase.

@David: Nice interpretation of the reading of the Deck. I can never figure out a reading of the Deck.

Renny wrote: "@David: Nice interpretation of the reading of the Deck. I can never figure out a reading of the Deck."

Those readings always seem significant. And that reminds me of something I missed in the next chapter.

Lori wrote: "Pust is insane just like Shadowthrone! Who is in the shadows of this convergence, pulling the strings for advantage, I wonder what his game is.

I got chills reading about the hidden room, ruins on..."

Icarium: "I know of no others."
Mappo: "Nor I."

I'm sure we have already read that Kalam commanded his own Hand of Claw but it's a fortnight since I read the first couple of chapters so I'm not sure I'll find the reference.

I wonder how he managed to get out of the Claw, an organisation that nobody leaves alive.

Chaz wrote: "I wonder how he managed to get out of the Claw, an organisation that nobody leaves alive. "

Well he didn't actually desert from the Empire when he left the Claw - but when he and Quick are discussing desertion in the previous book the issue then gets raised

'Good thing I'm not a Claw any more. Just soldiers, right?'
Behind him Quick Ben touched his own chest and vanished. His disembodied voice held a note of wry amusement. 'Right. No more cloak-and-dagger games for old Kalam.'

So Kalam is suggesting that the Claw will probably just ignore his desertion because he's not Claw anymore - and Quick Ben responds with sarcasm. A bit like "Yeah Kalam - We all have our fantasies"

In other words - Kalam is probably going to need all his cloak and dagger skills to stay ahead of the Claw.

But there must be a story behind his demotion/fall-from-grace/resignation from Clawmaster to corporal in the BBs.

We may have had it in the series but I can't remember it. The whole of the forming of the BBs in Raraku is something I would like to know more about as well. I believe Kalam was a scout for WJ's men as they tracked a troupe of Seven Cities mages of which QB was one but he was secretly working to lead WJ into QB's trap. However, they come out of the holy desert as the Bridgeburners with QB and Kalam incredibly loyal to WJ. I want to see that.

I don't think this is spoilers, I remember it from GotM I think.

Chaz wrote: "But there must be a story behind his demotion/fall-from-grace/resignation from Clawmaster to corporal in the BBs."

Yes, I can't remember either. But I think what we know so far is that Kalam was working with Quick to lead the BB up the proverbial garden path. The aim was to have the BB die of thirst in the desert. The Bridgeburner's instead of dying are transformed somehow by the holy desert - it was sort of like the desert "choosing" the BB for itself - Quick and Kalam recognising this fact swear loyalty to the Bridgeburners.

Now Quick obviously joins the Bridgeburners as a "new recruit" - but I'm wondering if it became known that Kalam was a double agent. But then the Emperor(being a mage himself)recognised the effect Raraku had on Kalam's loyalty - earning Kalam his life, but also a demotion and expulsion from the Claw. That's only my speculation so far. Looking for more clues if there are any.

Lori wrote: "I got chills reading about the hidden room, ruins on ruins, cities on top of cities, this is the wonder brought to us by an anthropolist.."
I was thinking the same thing! In the previous book i couldn't really tell all that much, but in this one it is so clear that his book is written by an anthropologist.


I'm loving Iskaral Pust, especially this one: "Icarium and Mappo Trell, famed wanderers of the world, I charge you with this perilous task — find me my broom."

David Sven wrote: "David wrote: "the rest of the cards fall

The six cards encircling it were all of one House. King, Herald, Mason, Spinner, Knight, Queen . . . High House Death, Hood’s House all arrayed . . . around the one who carries the Holy Book of Dryjhna.

There are seven people involved in the reading. The four Malazans and the merchant and his wife. Kalam gets the assassin card and the rest get death.

‘Ah, well,’ Kalam sighed, glancing up at the Pardu woman, ‘I guess I sleep alone tonight.’ ie because you are dead if you take this reading seriously.

And that interpretation of the reading worked out as the Red Blades slaughter the Keep before they continue tailing Kalam.
"

I didn't think of that, but that's true. Which makes his comment about the cards all the more funny now that I think of it, hehe.

I love Icarium

‘Well, that was fruitless. What shall we do now, friend?’
Icarium looked surprised. ‘It should be obvious, Mappo. We must take on this perilous quest. We must find Iskaral Pust’s broom.’

I loved that exchange too!

Whaaaaa my head hurts
I'm so jealous of those of you rereading
I have no idea what's going on.
Mainly as there are a bunch of names that I constantly think who's that???
I'm gutted that xray isn't on the kindle on this book it helped so much on the last book.
I do read a lot of your comments. And it clears something's I see.
I did notice the claw master bit. But didn't pick up that it was lostara who entered the keep after him covered in the fleas
My interpretation of the reading is that death is closing all around kalam.
I take it the card of the rope is kalams as he is an assassin, but in being so isn't he always going to be a puppet of the shadow god? Or the ropes at least?

The bit with sormo totally lost me.
So I get they entered a warren and it was showing something in sormos mind
But was it happening at that time or was it just being manifested from a old memory of sormo?

Also did you all read the whole series then re read or just finish one book then re read??

I never thought I'd find a book I hate so much yet love at the same time.
The characters drive me on as there are so many who are just quality.

Deano wrote: "I take it the card of the rope is kalams as he is an assassin, but in being so isn't he always going to be a puppet of the shadow god? Or the ropes at least?"

That's a good question :)


Deano wrote: "The bit with sormo totally lost me.
So I get they entered a warren and it was showing something in sormos mind"

I think what happens is that Sormo(and the others) soul travel into the warren which contains among other things the memories of the land

Deano wrote: "Also did you all read the whole series then re read or just finish one book then re read??"

I think most of the rereaders had finished most of the books before starting over.


Deano wrote: " never thought I'd find a book I hate so much yet love at the same time.
The characters drive me on as there are so many who are just quality. "

I had a similar love/hate relationship with these books when I first read them. They are a lot of work - but then there were those snapshot moments that made me want to keep going.

The Mappo-Icarium relationship is interesting. Felisin's storyline is seriously bleak. Seriously. Her conflict with Heboric is painful to read, but also beautifully written. Lol @ how Kalam flashed his license to kill at the sergeant to get him to show some respect. Also a nice analysis from David there on the conversation between Beneth and the guard captain. Erikson does an awesome job of filling his dialogue with allusions and subtle references. Although it can be weird (and annoying) at times when he has his characters avoid explaining or mentioning something in a really awkward way.

I remember being a little bored with Felsin plot line first time through, and now I have no idea why. It’s super interesting, especially knowing what is coming. So much foreshadowing… maybe it was just mental exhaustion.

But I continue to be bored by Mappo and Icarium.. it’s essentially the same scene over and over.

I agree with you, I could never find enjoyment in Mappos story. Felisen I really didn't like first time round, like her brother, I found them very irritating. But both characters, I warned to second time round.

That's good know. You never if the problem is you (not understanding the subtleties) or these books themselves.

Every Mappo & Icarium scene:

I: what about X?
M: (oh no!) X is nothing, let's talk about Y instead
I: you are a good friend
M: oh the guilt