The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

First my apologies. This section was longer than I anticipated. I used one book to develop the reading schedule, and bought a better version after the fact.

Lily continues a downward spiral. If anything it's gotten worse. She chose the cruise, which many of us believed would be the choice. Somehow trouble seems to follow her although her decision making process also has something to be desired. Her aunt dies leaving a small legacy which appears to be tied up in court. Rosedale and Selden both pop in and out of the story line. She gone from high society to milliner's apprentice, and is now using laudanum.

1. Who has more control/power in this society?

2. Who is the hero of the story?

3. Selden has one word to describe Lily, matchless (Chptr 3) What would be the word you would use to describe her.

4. How would you navigate a world of gambling, meals, dress makers with so many unspoken societal rules?

5. What do you think about Mrs. Fisher's role in society? Why is she successful?

Great questions Debs. Will put my thinking cap on.

MadgeUK wrote: "Great questions Debs. Will put my thinking cap on."

Thanks. It's just a tool to stimulate discussion. This book is so rich in themes. Wharton makes easy to be a discussion leader.

Good questions! To tackle a couple of them:

#1 -- I think the rich have the control and power in this society. Their wealth seems to trump everything--honor, principles, even truth and morality. Wharton paints a bleak picture of Lily's inexorable down spiral once Bertha Dorset publicly shames her. Lily's birth and history are not enough to save her. The few efforts she deems acceptable toward reclaiming her status--making herself visible to her former friends, an unspoken plea to Judy Trenor, Mrs. Fisher's efforts on her behalf--are ineffective. Even though Lily's friends know Bertha's character, and that her accusations are probably at least partially, if not completely false, they are unwilling to stand up to Bertha and the power of her wealth. Lily knows that attempting to explain her side of things and what really happened is pointless--with no money, no one is listening to her.

#5 -- I think Mrs. Fisher's role is interesting. I can see the need for it on the side of the social aspirants, and I can see her motivation in providing it. The thing that is curious to me is the fact that it is accepted by the elite group. I would have thought there would be more resistance to it on their part, once they were aware that her role is to foist people who do not meet their criteria into their social set. I guess that even they can see the need for occasional new blood to be introduced into their closed circle. Mrs. Fisher selects likely clients and molds them into acceptable candidates--still inferior and mainly acceptable for their wealth, but at least with the outward show of gentility. I guess Mrs. Fisher serves as a bouncer at a nightclub--judging who is worthy to enter!

Cindy wrote: "Good questions! To tackle a couple of them:

#1 -- I think the rich have the control and power in this society. Their wealth seems to trump everything--honor, principles, even truth and moralit..."

I agree wealth has a lot to do with power. So let me ask it on a different way. Who, among the high society/wealthy, has the power? I think there's something more here.

There's been so much discussion about who is responsible for Lily's situation. I was struck by this observation by Mrs. Fisher: "That's Lily all over, you know: she works like a slave preparing the ground and sowing her seed; but the day she ought to be reaping the harvest she oversleeps herself or goes off on a picnic." She goes on to say, "sometimes I think it's because, at heart, she despises the things she's trying for" (201). I can see that--who hasn't dawdled when they needed to hurry to do something they dreaded? I know that so many different factors contributed to her behavior--her upbringing, her mother's influence, the expectations and rules of society--but it just seems a shame that she has the integrity and self-awareness to stand up to pressure in some situations, such as with Gus Trenor and George Dorset, but lacks the ability to turn her back on what she had been taught to believe she requires for happiness. She keeps making the same mistake over and over. Time after time, she brings an eligible suitor to the brink of commitment only to sabotage it in one fashion or another each time. The problem is that she never learns from this. She never seems to realize what this means--that this is not what she really wants. Maybe if she had realized this at some point, she could have directed her energies into searching for the person who would make her truly happy instead of the person who would make her truly rich. That's just how I see it, anyway!

Cindy wrote: "There's been so much discussion about who is responsible for Lily's situation. I was struck by this observation by Mrs. Fisher: "That's Lily all over, you know: she works like a slave preparing t..."

I had noted the same quote.

#5 All men have power over Lily and over any woman who becomes financially dependent upon them, then and now.

Great post Marie, thanks.

Marie wrote: "Of course the wealthy hold the power in every society, but this is more about who holds the power within their realm of it. Men held the power in business, women held the making or breaking of an i..."

You've hit it exactly. Well said.

Marie wrote: "Thanks Madge, this is one of my favorite books and I'm really enjoying discussing it with all of you. Everyone has such great points to make."

A new favorite for me, Marie. I enjoyed your very spot on analysis.

Marie wrote: "Of course the wealthy hold the power in every society, but this is more about who holds the power within their realm of it. Men held the power in business, women held the making or breaking of an i..."

Your analysis is very astute. I especially liked the chess analogy. That is so true!

Marie wrote: "Thanks so much, Deborah and Sara.

Deborah, how did it go with your tickets for the tea party at the Mount?"

I am on the mailing list. Believe the web site is edithwharton,org. They have various things there or you can just go and take the tour of the house and gardens.

Marie, I liked your comments. You made points I had not considered.

I had trouble feeling sorry for Lily for failing in her attempt at Lord Gryce, since she really did not want him. The morning she thought about what it would be like to actually be married to him, and imagined her role as his wife, she found the whole idea really unappealing. She may not have been good at "looking for the person who would make her truly happy instead of the person who would make her truly rich," but some part of her did try to protect her against a life that would make her unhappy.