The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

I have some appointments today so my comments will be posted later.

One question to get us started.

What is your opinion of Lily now that you've completed the story?

I identified more with Gerty and wondered whether - despite her romantic disappointment - she did 't have the better life.

Abby wrote: "I identified more with Gerty and wondered whether - despite her romantic disappointment - she did 't have the better life."

I think it is easier for modern readers to relate to Gerty, and her independence. Lily's world is a bit harder.

My apologies for the late post.

Lily has lost her job, and is just about penniless. Yet she still doesn't seem able to juggle her finances. She's lost her job and is at a point of desperation. She almost uses the letters to rescue herself, but changes her mind.

1. Were you surprised by the ending?

2. What kept Selden and Lily apart? Society, fate, their choices?

3. Did Lily have a sense of morality? If so, was it one that made sense to you?

4. And as previously mentioned, has your opinion of Lily changed?

1. During the biggest part of the book I did not see the ending coming. But when she started to use sleepmedication and started to deterioate mentally, I started to see this ending as a possibility.

2. This is a naturalistic book, so the writer probably intended that fate kept them apart. But I get the impression that Lily's personality structure plays an important role in it. Somehow she keeps on making choices that in the end are selfdefeating. It is almost if she is afraid to really try to love.

3. The most part of the book Lily came across as a very materialistic and narcissistic individual. There are not many books in which I had so many problems identifying with the main character. It reminded me a lot of the main character of Solar by Ian McEwan. The main character in that book is also very egoistic and irritated me. In the end we do see some changes in the way she relates to others, but her personality is not capable of making some real major changes.

4. I had the impression of Lily as someone who led a superficial life, which gave her little satisfaction. This never led to much selfreflection. I do not think that her personality traits really changed at the end of the book, but that these traits have become less extreme.

This is a book that I found hard too rate. I think it is well written and shows some good insights in a part of a society that Lily was part of. We see those people with all there weaknesses and realistically portrayed. But I have trouble coping with the underlying feeling in this book that people are not able to escape their fate. The premisses of naturalism clash with the way I see the world.

The ending surprised me. It was so sad when she started to overuse sleep medication. You just knew something was going to happen and it would not be good. I keep wondering was it an accident or done on purpose. I also had the same question why could she not escape her fate. That is why I could not relate to Lily

Since I'm a woman of a certain age :) I didn't find it hard to relate to Lily. She had been raised to be purely ornamental and make a good marriage. That was it. We don't know how much formal education she had. Obviously had few work opportunities. How difficult would it be to escape? What escape routes existed? Wasn't she sometimes hampered by a sense of morality?

Or if not by morality, then by the mores of her class, which in so many cases become indistinguishable from morality. I didn't have any trouble relating to Lily, and I found her overuse of the sleeping medication a very contemporary note. I'm wondering if it may be even more common today for people to start numbing themselves with everything from drugs (including prescription drugs) to binge eating (or binge Netflix).

I think her final dose had the same lack of commitment the rest of her life showed--it was kind of an "accidentally on purpose" move. She wasn't strong enough to make a major change.

I think Wharton does a great job of indicting the society Lily has grown up with but at the same time saddling Lily with SOME personal responsibility.

Kat wrote: "Or if not by morality, then by the mores of her class, which in so many cases become indistinguishable from morality. I didn't have any trouble relating to Lily, and I found her overuse of the slee..."

Nicely put

1. Were you surprised by the ending? Not really; it was coming.

2. What kept Selden and Lily apart? Society, fate, their choices? It's complicated; at first she wants to do better financially. She is insecure. Her parents are dead. She is dependent on the odious Aunt Peniston (note significance of her name), who is dressed in "black mail". She needs to spend money as an investment and the only investment she can make is as a beauty on the marriage market.

3. Did Lily have a sense of morality? If so, was it one that made sense to you? I think she had a deep sense that no matter how she might fall, she would not allow Gus Trenor to touch her. She also is determined to protect Seldon's reputation by buying the compromising letters.

4. And as previously mentioned, has your opinion of Lily changed?
I like Lily a lot; I think we see her almost clinching the deal a few times but pulling away because she wants to be true to her own values and to her own sense of love. She is naive, but when and where could she learn how to be savvy? She has, perhaps, inherited the financial ineptitude of her parents. She learns and practices ethics the hard way.

#1. I was not surprised by the ending. Lily never learns from her mistakes, seems not to know what it is that she really wants, so that does not auger well for a happy ending. She does start to achieve some enlightenment by the end of the book, after she has a better understanding of what poverty and desperation really are (she only thought she knew before!). Having hit rock bottom, she seems to start to understand what is really important, but it is too late to help. Once the sleeping draught was introduced, I knew that it was her doom.

#2 -- I think all of the above keep Lily and Seldon apart. Since both need rich spouses to maintain the lifestyles they wish to become accustomed to, Society decrees that they are not eligible for each other. Their own choices support this, as well. Lily and Seldon flirt and bond, but are open with each other about their regret at being unable to indulge their attraction. Fate has a hand, as well. Surely it is fate that causes Seldon to be standing outside of the Trenor home in time to see Gus escort Lily out. His misconceptions on that occasion are completely understandable. I think it is also Fate that stills his tongue on her last visit to him. His confusion and uncertainty keep him from speaking, and he does not have his epiphany until after she has left.

#3 -- Lily does have a sense of morality, and I could understand her motivations, but it did not always make sense to me. Her morals prevent her from doing some things, like keeping the money Gus Trenor gives her or using the letters to blackmail Bertha, but she seems perfectly fine about other questionable things, such as luring Percy Gryce into marriage or living on Bertha's charity while on the cruise with her. She (belatedly) accepts Rosedale's proposal (which is no longer open!), but that was an open offer of a marriage of convenience. He has no illusions that she is in love with him, and he is fine with that. Percy Gryce, however, is a different story. Even though Lily doesn't actually get him, she sets out to charm a proposal from him by pretending to care about him; pretending to be someone other than who she is to entrap him. While this is a common occurrence in Lily's society, it is hardly moral. Her moral sense, once engaged, is quite inflexible--it just did not always engage.

#4 -- My opinion of Lily doesn't change. Who she is at the end is just the result of choices she makes at the beginning. She seeks a particular dream, a particular lifestyle--whether because of Society or her upbringing, it is the life she seeks. She is given the gifts considered necessary to achieve this dream. In addition to her family connections and social status, she has beauty, grace, and charm. Her indecisiveness, her inability to understand her own self, are her downfall. If she truly wants the wealthy society life, she should have closed the deal with one of her many eligible suitors. If she values love over all and considers that more important, then she should have turned her energies to finding the man that would make her happy in that respect. She pursues one dream while subconsciously longing for another, and the two are incompatible. She needed to commit to one and turn her back on the other, but lacked the strength or self-reflection to even be able to identify the problem.

Two things I noticed in this book. First, Wharton only knew wealth yet she writes very convincingly about the desperation of poverty.

Second, I believe our choices in life are rarely black and white. Lily needs money and knows she can only achieve this through the right marriage. But she wants love so she subconsciously rebels against it. I think this rebelling is also part of her moral structure.

Everything in Lily's life is capricious. Bertha wants her there to distract the husband until she thinks he might be a bit too distracted. She is raised to expect certain things and have certain things expected of her, when she misses the mark others have set, her meager but adequate inheritance is yanked from her and given to someone else. In the end, Lily is left helpless, because she has none of the skills necessary to survive a life without wealth. Her encounter with the girl she helped and who has established a good life in the midst of her poverty is evidence that while a good life can be had without wealth, Lily has none of the internal strength needed to achieve such a thing.

So many of you seem to view Lily as profligate because she will not just buck up and DO what she needs to do to survive in the realm of society to which she is born. I see her as the opposite, someone who is not quite shameless and immoral enough to do so. She has an ember of morality that she cannot extinguish. She might easily use the letters to salvage her place, she would easily rise right back into her previous station if she regains admittance by Bertha even via blackmail. She declines.

Lily wants something different, but she has no idea how to get it, and since Seldon makes it clear early on that he also views their union as an impossibility, I do not think she seriously considers that he is an option she has. She tries to survive as a worker, but she is both inept and miserable in this. Gerty knows what her situation will be very early on and she makes a life that fits that station...Lily is in a position that she never thought to find herself in. It is akin to finding yourself homeless after always living in a nice, upscale home of your own. You might survive, but it would not be easy, and some would not survive at all.

Lily's choice to take the overdose is a sad comment on how few options are open to her. She feels herself slipping ever further from her place and she cannot truly imagine what lies below the station she has already reached. When she leaves Seldon, she has (I think) already decided that she will not linger in this world for long. While she might not have committed suicide outright, she is clearly aware of the dangers of the overuse of the medication and she intentionally and thoughtfully increases the dose.

The saddest thing about this is that, with the exception of Gerty and Seldon, Lily will just pass quickly from the gossip grapevine to the annals of the forgotten. She will not count and she will not be remembered. Rosedale will find another suitable girl without scruples to inhibit her and all the catty women will continue to claw at one another and pursue more money and things.

My last thought is that this book made me think that high-society is very much the same regardless of where you might find it. I saw many parallels between Lily and Anna Karenina.

Sara wrote: "..I saw many parallels between Lily and Anna Karenina. ..."

Oh, my, Sara, how differently different ones of us read. I saw Anna as caught in a loveless marriage, with a son she loved very much, who made the fatal choice of being attracted to a virile man unable to give up his external life while Anna remained entangled in the pressures of the society in which she had once moved and functioned. Lily was a young woman without all those initial commitments as she journeyed into Wharton's story for her.

I have far more empathy for Anna than for Lily, but that may not be fair. The options to create one's own life were probably scant more available to Lily than to Anna. Hard as the world can be, I am glad it is different.

Am just finishing reading Primates of Park Avenue by Wednesday Martin, a current-day story that touches on the impact wealth and location may have on women's lives in our relatively emancipated era. Ms. Martin makes mention of Lily Bart at one point. Also just paged through these photos from the Metropolitan Museum of Art Costume Institute Benefit Gala celebrating the exhibit "China: Through The Looking Glass" :
http://www.stylebistro.com/Best+Dress...
In many cases, I found people in the background as intriguing as the focus of each slide.

One wonders how history will look at excesses of our era. May there BE history to do so.

Lily wrote: "Sara wrote: "..I saw many parallels between Lily and Anna Karenina. ..."

Oh, my, Sara, how differently different ones of us read. I saw Anna as caught in a loveless marriage, with a son she loved..."
I agree Anna and Lily had very different personalities and situations...however, what I saw that they had in common was that society expected certain things of them, as women they were punished for not living up to those expectations in ways that men never would have been, and when they stepped outside the parameters society had set for them they were abandoned.

I seem to have an equal amount of empathy for them both. So few choices. I also would be interested in seeing how history will view the present day. Too many choices might be just as bad in terms of lives that get lost and wasted.

I always enjoy seeing how others interpret the books I read. What is wonderful is that each of us brings something different to the story ourselves and what we bring colors what we find there. The miracle of good literature is that it can mean so many much to so many.

Sara wrote: "So many of you seem to view Lily as profligate because she will not just buck up and DO what she needs to do to survive in the realm of society to which she is born. I see her as the opposite, someone who is not quite shameless and immoral enough to do so. "

I think this hits the nail on the head, Sara. It was not considered at all immoral by the standards of her circle to marry for money instead of love, in fact, it's considered superior to the reverse situation; but Lily can't bring herself to do it.

Sara wrote: "Everything in Lily's life is capricious. Bertha wants her there to distract the husband until she thinks he might be a bit too distracted. She is raised to expect certain things and have certain th..."

Sara, very eloquent. That's how I see Lily as well.

Sara wrote: "Lily wrote: "Sara wrote: "..I saw many parallels between Lily and Anna Karenina. ..."

Oh, my, Sara, how differently different ones of us read. I saw Anna as caught in a loveless marriage, with a ..."

Are women punished today for not conforming to society? Are men?

Kat wrote: "Sara wrote: "So many of you seem to view Lily as profligate because she will not just buck up and DO what she needs to do to survive in the realm of society to which she is born. I see her as the o..."

In fact marrying for money was actually what was expected.

Sara wrote: "...however, what I saw that they had in common was that society expected certain things of them, as women they were punished for not living up to those expectations in ways that men never would have been, and when they stepped outside the parameters society had set for them they were abandoned...."

Thanks for your comments, Sara. You send my thoughts down the quest of what is "society" and, in our individualistic culture that nonetheless puts much emphasis on "relationships", what does it mean to belong -- or to be ostracized?

Deborah wrote: "Are women punished today for not conforming to society? Are men?"

I was thinking about that myself and today it is very different. Sometimes I think women are criticized and punished more if they don't fit the "liberated woman" stereotype, which is ironic considering how hard women of my generation fought to just have the choice of having a career. The desire of society to have control over individual lives and have them "fit" the mold seems to me is still very strong...just applied differently. Younger members could probably speak with more authority on this subject than I can.

Sara wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Are women punished today for not conforming to society? Are men?"

I was thinking about that myself and today it is very different. Sometimes I think women are criticized and punish..."

I think some of the younger members don't remember the liberation fight :). For me what popped into my mind was the ideal of beauty and the criticism women take re not young enough, not thin enough, etc.

The book I just read, Primates of Park Avenue, very much came to mind, where the author felt such difficulty in fitting into the social world of being a mother on the Upper East Side of New York. She had originally come from Grand Rapids, Michigan.

A number of stories are appearing that tell how it is finally being recognized that many women in technical fields were shunted away from main stream opportunities, e.g., The Girls of Atomic City: The Untold Story of the Women Who Helped Win World War II, The Innovators.

Churches struggle with what groups of interest to create: singles, young families, .... Widows and divorcees frequently find themselves displaced from the social lives they once took for granted. Communities struggle with requests to erect houses of worship for faiths different than those historically present.

But, so many ways exist to slice the pie. Some seek to "turn over" their social world with regularity; some lives and families are very mobile and deliberately or not so deliberately change physical and social location. Others continue in the same communities for generations.

There's certainly a lot more room in today's society to take whatever path you choose. But I suspect it depends on the size of your social circle. If you live in a small town, there's still a lot of pressure as long as you stay there. If you were born into the wealthiest class, there are still specific rituals of belonging that are expected of you, I believe--no personal experience of this! But you CAN leave your group today much more easily than Lily could leave hers.

Sara wrote: "Everything in Lily's life is capricious. Bertha wants her there to distract the husband until she thinks he might be a bit too distracted. She is raised to expect certain things and have certain th..."

I really liked your modern-day comparison of Lily's situation to suddenly being homeless after always having a nice house. That is very apt. She was a fish out of water in the world she found herself in. I can imagine how lost she felt, and how surreal the whole experience seemed to her.

Looking back at the book, I think I'm going to have to change my answer for Deborah's question about what keeps Lily and Selden apart. I think Fate played the biggest role. After Lily appeared in the tableau, Selden confessed his love for her. They were to meet when Selden returned from his business trip. By then, Lily had had her scene with Gus and had reached the conclusion that she loved Selden. They were in love and ready to take the next step, but Fate stepped in and brought Selden to the street corner in time to see Lily leave Gus's house. Then at the end--she loves him, he loves her, but she takes her overdose and once again, their chance to be together is snatched away.

Cindy wrote: "Sara wrote: "Everything in Lily's life is capricious. Bertha wants her there to distract the husband until she thinks he might be a bit too distracted. She is raised to expect certain things and ha..."

I agree that fate played a role, but so did prudence, I think. Neither of them was passionately in love enough to go for it w/o thinking of the consequences. That makes this a very realistic novel, surely. Not everyone who marries has that experience of overwhelming passion and romance.

Cindy wrote: " I think Fate played the biggest role."

Yes, fate often does. Some succeed and others fail because of being (or not being) in the right place at the right time. Not everything is within our control, but some things are and so often we are afraid to walk through the right doors. Opportunity might only knock once. Seldon and Lily had that opportunity but they missed it, primarily because they were both afraid to take the plunge into the unknown. If they had, I suspect it would all have turned out well for both of them. Seldon was not obsessed with what the group thought and married to Seldon, Lily would have become less so. It is what makes it a tragedy. If Romeo had gotten the Friar's message, if Juliet had awakened a few moments earlier...if I had chosen the job in Dallas instead of the one in Maryland, everything would be different.

Thanks for your post, Marie, I found it very interesting to hear about your background. As for women today, I think one of the problems is that the Internet becomes an echo chamber of all the criticism out there. There's also support for women to make almost any choice available, I think. But it's not so easy to find; the criticism tends to drown it out.

Marie wrote: "I do believe it was a combination of everything that kept Lily and Seldon apart. Her unable to let go of the obsession she has built up her mind - the idea that society created - that she must reac..."

As usual Marie, very eloquent and well thought out. Kudos.

Marie wrote: "I do believe it was a combination of everything that kept Lily and Seldon apart. Her unable to let go of the obsession she has built up her mind - the idea that society created - that she must reac..."
Excellent thoughts and understanding of the novel and Lily's character in particular, Marie. I didn't marry until I was 28 and I cannot tell you how sick I got of being asked why and when, sometimes by people whose lives were hell because they married the wrong person or at a very young age. Kudos to you for choosing your own path.

Marie wrote: "Kat wrote: "Thanks for your post, Marie, I found it very interesting to hear about your background. As for women today, I think one of the problems is that the Internet becomes an echo chamber of a..."

So glad you enjoyed it. It was a reread for me, and I feel I got so much more out of it this time.

Cindy wrote: "Lily does have a sense of morality, and I could understand her motivations, but it did not always make sense to me. Her morals prevent her from doing some things ..."

I agree; I was confused as to why Lily's morality would allow her to do some questionable things but not others. Maybe she was naive (or chose to be) when it came to the cruise and taking Trenor's money, but on less equivocal matters her conscience kicked in. Yet would using the letters really have been blackmail? She wouldn't be asking Bertha for money, only for her to let up in her persecution of Lily.

Her death was signposted by the pharmacist's warning about overdoses; but very poignant nonetheless. The last dreams that she slipped into seemed to point to a whole world that she'd missed without realising it. And the moment of terror before she fell asleep again was really terrifying because we knew what was happening.

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's perceptive comments on the book. I'm ashamed to say it's the first Edith Wharton I've read but won't be the last. Which other of her books would people recommend?

Her New York short stories are very good. Also many like The Age of Innicence

Emma wrote: Yet would using the letters really have been blackmail? She wouldn't be asking Bertha for money, only for her to let up in her persecution of Lily.

I wondered about this at first, too. But how would Lily use the letters exactly? If she told Bertha she had them, would they destroy the letters together? If so, there would be no guarantee Bertha would not continue to hate and punish Lily. But if Lily told Bertha she had the letters and then kept the letters, Lily would have a hold on Bertha, but it would be a form of exploitation, even if Lily did not ask Bertha for money. Bertha has proven herself untrustworthy, so a simple promise from her would not be worth much.

I've enjoyed several of Wharton's other books. I think The Age of Innocence is probably my favorite of what I have read. I also liked Summer. It's short and rather dark, but has beautiful descriptions of natural settings. I enjoyed The Buccaneers very much. Wharton died before she finished it, and later parts of it are less polished and less Wharton-like, but the early parts were fun, and it might be interesting to go back and look at it now that I have read House of Mirth. In the Buccaneers, a group of American sisters go to England in search of rich husbands, with varying results.

Casceil wrote: "...I enjoyed The Buccaneers very much. Wharton died before she finished it, and later parts of it are less polished and less Wharton-like, but the early parts were fun, and it might be interesting to go back and look at it now that I have read House of Mirth. In the Buccaneers, a group of American sisters go to England in search of rich husbands, with varying results....."

I especially enjoyed The Buccaneers, too, although seemingly knowledgeable critics often don't like the way Marion Mainwaring completed it. They also point out that Wharton herself often went back and polished and reordered before she completed a manuscript on which she was working; despite how much had been written, they debate Wharton's plan, at least in part based on her notes. But the novel has always fed my understanding of the dynamics of the era between European aristocracy and new American wealth. I was also glad to have read it before reading Henry James's The Portrait of a Lady.

Wharton's New England stories are worth reading as well, with Ethan Frome often considered one of her masterworks, although it is not a tale I "like" per se.


This is from a description of one collection of her New England works:

"Although Edith Wharton is usually identified with the 'old New York' of such masterworks as The Age of Innocence and The House of Mirth, she spent ten years living and writing in New England, a setting that appears in two novels, a novella, and fully a quarter of her short stories. In these works Wharton turns from portraying the monied and the mannered to probing inscrutable psyches and souls. The New England of these tales-which range from light comedy to horror-becomes a metaphor for fierce poverty, cultural barrenness, and an oppressive Puritan heritage that both fascinated and repelled Wharton."

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

I hope my next Wharton read will be Old New York: Four Novellas.

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the book's title, taken from the Bible:

“The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.”
—Ecclesiastes 7:4

Lily and Seldon have both been foolish in my mind, but there's no mirth to be found. I guess we could argue that their hearts had found both wisdom and mourning by the end of the book.

Mary Lou wrote: "I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the book's title, taken from the Bible:

“The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.”
—Eccl..."

Excellent question, Mary Lou. Perhaps it refers to the foolish seeking of wealth (mirth) over those things that have substance and matter in life. Had Lily and Seldon not focused on wealth, they both could have been happy and had good lives.

Or maybe the what the wealthy feel important being truly trivial makes them have the heart of fools. Only two characters seem really wise to me: Gerty and the woman who had been rescued thru charity. The rest seem, even when good intentioned, to be focus on clothing, food, and appearances.

Deborah wrote: "Or maybe the what the wealthy feel important being truly trivial makes them have the heart of fools. Only two characters seem really wise to me: Gerty and the woman who had been rescued thru charit..."

Exactly, Deborah. I also see Gerty and the woman rescued as the two characters most likely to find true happiness. Gerty accepts her station, enjoys when she is included, and does what she can for those less fortunate...which always helps to make a greater happiness.

The wise see things realistically, the fools never do. Reminds me of the fool who built his house on sand.

God bless Gerty! She was the only person in the book who seemed content with her lot in life and not a slave to other's opinions. On the flip side of that, though, she allowed Lily to be so condescending towards her! And that, more than anything else, is why I just couldn't bring myself to feel compassion for Lily, let alone like her.

Re other works by Wharton, one I haven't read but am interested in reading is called The Mother's Recompense. A friend of mine feels it's the most direct challenge Wharton gave to the conventional roles of women at that time.

Mary Lou wrote: "God bless Gerty! She was the only person in the book who seemed content with her lot in life and not a slave to other's opinions. On the flip side of that, though, she allowed Lily to be so condescending towards her! And that, more than anything else, is why I just couldn't bring myself to feel compassion for Lily..."

I think Lily was a victim of her bringing up, when it was drilled into her that all that mattered were her looks and the need to avoid "dinginess" at all costs. She couldn't escape this early indoctrination and Gerty was the only person to offer her any insight into a different way of thinking.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions about other works by Edith Wharton. I'll look forward to trying them.

I would recommend the film with Gillian Anderson, as it follows the book very closely. The last scene is heartbreaking.

Rochelle wrote: "I would recommend the film with Gillian Anderson, as it follows the book very closely. The last scene is heartbreaking."

I didn't know about this film. I looked it up and some of the casting sounds perfect! Found it on my library's website and put a hold on it. Thanks for the recommendation! I didn't much like the book, but sometimes seeing the story unfold on film will give me a different perspective. It will be interesting to see if Anderson can make me feel sympathy for Lily.

I've taken it out of the library several times. The only difference I could detect is that 2 secondary characters are compressed into one.