The Shadow of What Was Lost discussion

Ready, go! I would start, but I'm at work.

I assume we can discuss spoilers freely? :D So...

1. The guy that couldn't finish his 3 tasks and subsequently bound his service to lead the eyeless army, his name was Licanius right? (source: from the story of the book davian read). But then the swords name is also Licanius? How can this be, and in what way are they connected?

2. Time travelling paradox, if future cannot be altered, how could Davian teach the old man (Malshash) in the lost city a spell in the future, and then getting taught the same spell by the old man while travelling back in time?

3. The lizard men, those who taught Caeden his powers.. what and who were they, and are they also currently residing behind the boundary?

4. The guy, "Malshash" in the lost city (back in time) his dying wife was called "El", the main religion has a god called "El", connection?

5. Malshash, bad or good guy? :D

Christopher wrote: "I assume we can discuss spoilers freely? :D So..."

Spoilers, yes by all means!

1. The individual from that story was named Alarais. When I read that name, it made me think of the guy that Caeden had ran into whithin Caeden's dok'en, Alaris. Alaris was the one who warned Caeden against those with whom he traveled and essentially sent him into a trap wherein Caeden subsequently rescued the princess. However, it doesn't appear that there is a connection between those two names.

Due to the small poem at the beginning of that book, I think Alarias is likely also Caeden, or as it is, Tal' ka Mar. It talks about a traitor who is now only a shadow of what he once was. A whisper where there was once a shout, a pond where once was an ocean, etc. It makes sense as Caeden has stripped himself of his knowledge and abilities as of now. It also speaks of him breaking his Oath. I think Alarias (who might be Tal'kamar) is attempting to break his oath to that entity, Ghash, who I believe will be later revealed as the shadow (creature) from the prologue, likely the main villain. Later when Caeden meets with the Keeper, who restores some of his memories, the Keeper informs him that he believes Tal'kamar wants to change. When Caeden rescues the princess from the Blind, they tell him that they are attempting to stop him. i believe they are referencing the oath and saying they are trying to stop him from breaking it.

2. I'm not sure which spell you're referring to. The only thing I remember Malshash saying that Davian had taught him was that the only secrets a mind could not give up were those it did not already know. I took that to mean he was referencing when Davian relived Malsash's weeding. It was a secret Malsash was attempting to keep from Davian, but he intruded into that area of Malsahs's mind and retrieved it any way. Was there something Davian had taught him that I don't recall?

3. I have no idea. This story alone makes me second guess a lot of my theories.

4. Her name was Elliavia, but Malshash called he Ell for short. Maybe a connection, but I doubt it.

5. Great question! I think this is partly why I loved this book so much. Even with the revelations at the end of the book, you still are attempting to determine who might be good and who might be bad. The story is so intricate and I believe that a lot of the characters within the story formulate their own opinions of those who might be bad and use what they know of history to formulate that opinion. Yet, so many thousands of years have passed and they possess limited information of history due to the destruction of information etc. Plus history gets distorted over time without an accurate record of events. Also, some generations might see an individual as evil simply because that person has done evil acts for so many hundreds of years, but prior to that maybe that same person carried out innumerable good things for hundreds of years as well.

This lines up with the Guardian's tale of how Tal'kamar had butchered the Arathi, but also risked his soul to stop the extinction of Utthal. How he had lived for over 3k years and done so much evil and so much good. Albeit I believe he has occupied different persona's throughout those 3k years. Unbeknownst to most mortal people. This also corroborates my theory that some people believe Davead to be evil and, let's say Caeden to be good, that is true as it appears, but they are yet to understand that both those persona's are actaully one entity. So, is he bad, or is he good? It appears as though he is attempting to pick a side. If my theory adds up and he is actually also Alarias and as a result of his oath to obey the one entity mentioned in the story book, has done some unspeakable things as certain persona's, then it might be because his oath forced him to do so. Albeit, maybe even willingly at times. But we've all done things we regret.

What we do know is that Tenvar named the entity that mutilated his hand as a Venerate and stated they were perceived as a myth. That individual gave him the box to give to Davian. Later in the book it revealed Caeden was the one who mutilated Tenvar's hand. As such, one can infer he is a Venerate. One who evidently is like an Augur, only more powerful. I believe Davian is also a Venerate and has done to himself something similar as to what Tal'kamar has, and erased himself to an extent. Then again when Caeden gets part of his memory back he remembers when he assumed Caeden's identity and how if the Gil'shar attempt to execute him for his crimes then the Venerate would find out and it would jeopardize his plans. So maybe when Caeden gave Tenvar that box he did so under the guise of a Venerate via shapeshifting and neither he nor Davian are actually Venerates. I also find it interesting that Davian is able to travel through time and Malshash believes it has something to do with Daivan dying.

There are a lot of questions and after reading this post over, I am having trouble validating my theories.

I loved the book and it leaves a lot to the imagination. The sequel is my most anticipated read and I am very eager to get my hands on it.

I forgot a huge point! The tapping of teeth. In chapter 42 I believe, the princess converses with Caeden and Taeris about their request for her to help them as Tol Athian has refused to do so. They want her to pressure the Tol. She tells them that she is only there because people she trust believe that Caeden and Taeris can help fight the impending invasion. During the conversation, she taps her teeth, with a manicured fingernail.

When the Shadraehin and Asha meet and discuss arming the shadows with vessels. The Shadraehin stops mid conversation and taps at her teeth, looking thoughtful when considering the deal.

After the decoy Shadraehin, Scyner, engages and kills Kol, he converses with Asha, Fessi and Erran. During that conversation, he taps his teeth with his fingernail, tells them the king is being controlled and Scyner, doesn't want the city being surrendered to the Blind. Not to mention it's revealed he is an old Augur. Maybe the princess is an Augur as well. It's not to far fetched as Wirr, her cousin is gifted.

I think there is something to do with this whole tapping of teeth thing and wonder if the princess is somehow in league with the Shadraehin and Scyner.

Also, I think the Blind were after Caeden and tried to get him to come as close to them as possible. That's actually why the city was attacked. Plus I believe these are actually his people historically known as those within the Shining Lands from Alrias' story. However, the people who reign there now are descendants of whomever took control of the lands once Alarias swore an oath to Ghash.

I'm intrigued by this teeth tapping thing though and am not sure why it stood out to me. lol.

I just read an answer that the author posted to a question here on his GR page. It's regarding the origin of the story and pretty much confirms my theory about Alarias being Caeden/Tal'kamar. Additionally, I looked over Alarias' story again and at the end Davian speculates as to whether Alarias or Ghash is Davead. I think it's safe to say Ghash is not Davead due to the books ending. As such we know that Caeden is also known as at least three other people: Tal'kamar, Alarias and Davead.

Here is what the author said regarding the story's origin:

I've always loved stories about redemption, characters with dark pasts striving to change but struggling with who they've become. So I was interested in exploring the idea of an epic fantasy bad guy - the legendary enemy who everyone 'knows' is evil - in that situation. Looking at why he was on the wrong side in the first place, and then how he'd go about trying to make up for / escape the terrible things he'd done.

That led to me thinking about memories and how much they shape who a person is - how their past experiences, decisions and knowledge influence them and make them capable of things they might not be otherwise.

I also wanted to write a story where prophecies weren't so wishy-washy and open to interpretation ("and the seven eagles shall rise on wings of fire, and the crown of iron shall be shattered, and blah blah blah"). It's not that this never works in a story, but I think it's an area of fantasy that still tends to get away with little to no explanation of why it's like that. In most cases it seems to just fall into the 'because magic' category, which I'm personally not a big fan of.

Anyway, that line of thinking ultimately resulted in the Augurs, as well as (to some extent) the inclusion of time travel in the story.

Mike wrote: "I forgot a huge point! The tapping of teeth. In chapter 42 I believe, the princess converses with Caeden and Taeris about their request for her to help them as Tol Athian has refused to do so. They..."

I'm a little late to the game, but my first thought when I read this was that Scyner and the Shadraehin are one and the same. Augher's have the ability to shapeshift, and while I don't believe they ever mention whether it's possible to shift into the opposite gender, I would imagine if anyone would be able to do so it would be a pre-war Augher.

Then again that theory is pretty much debunked when future-chained Davian tells Ash that Scyner is just a front man.

Love the other theories you've posted so far.

Tyler!!! I'm so glad you commented. I was going to delete this thread months ago because it didn't seem anyone was interested. I'm glad I didn't and I'm thrilled you commented. Primarily because your comment reminds me that I need to give this a reread. This is one of my favorite books but I wanted to give it a few months before another read. It's about time.

I like your theory as well. Who knows maybe your theory is accurate and future Davian isn't completely in the know. ;)

First off, I've gotta start by saying that this book was amazing. From the first page to the last. It gave me the same feeling as when I read the Wheel of Time, the vastness of the world, the mysteries and the crazy theories swirling inside my head. Unlike the Wheel of Time, I find that I have far more questions about the book in mind. It's all incredibly exciting.

I think that you've got some great theories here. One thing, however, I have trouble figuring out if Caeden is/was a bad guy and is he being manipulated? The author does a great job in making it seem that he might be good...or he might be bad. It made me crazy thinking about it, so much so that I couldn't put the book down. By then end, I began to think that this is a story of redemption.

Anyways, I think that Caeden had a serious plan in place from the beginning and may even have known who the important players were and got himself acquainted with them (Davian and Wirr). All three of them seem to have a connections, even though they can't trust him because of the allegations against him, they still feel very strongly towards him. They feel an urge to trust him. Also, when Caeden steps in to defend Wirr and he duels Aelric, it seemed like a much deeper bond then one from just traveling together for a couple of days.

Is it possible that they know one another from another time?

It's mentioned at one point, I can't remember where, something about reincarnation. Is it possible that these two are reincarnations of Caeden's 2 failed trials? Are they going to correct the wrongs that they commited by getting duped by that Ass**** Ghash. I could feel the manipulation and corruption dripping from his greasy and slimy words.

Did Ghash give Caeden those tasks because he wanted to conquer the world? Could he not do it without him?

Are the Darecians also a people who were fleeing from Ghash's conquest?

I think that my last 2 questions are related. So many ideas...I can't wait for the next book. I'm going to reread this one right before the next one comes out.

Jasprit wrote: "First off, I've gotta start by saying that this book was amazing. From the first page to the last. It gave me the same feeling as when I read the Wheel of Time, the vastness of the world, the myste..."

Ive been wanting to reread this for a while but like you, im going to wait till the second is almost released.

Great commentary by the way. Go check out the Authors website. I signed up to be a beta reader there. He hasnt selected any beta readers yet as i understand but he does periodically send out an email to those who've requested. Typically just to keep them up to date on his progress but he also recently told us about something he hasnt revealed publicly yet. Not intending to sound cryptic, id say what it is but he hasnt publicly yet (i think anyway), so i wont ruin that for him. Most can probably guess.

Thanks Mike, I'm gonna get in on that beta. Sounds interesting.

Just read the book a week ago and think that everyone has come to the conclusion that entity malshash spoke about was the god that el sealed and took the augurs ability away to get people to stop believing in el.

Also can anyone explain why so many epic/ fantasy series mirror the bible?

Ill need to reread in order to speak to your comment David.

Yep, me too. I'm not sure what you mean by mirroring the bible tho.

Please try out the audiobook, i know that 24 hours is a long time but i think its worth a listening.

The reason i think its the evil god is that malshash said that a extremely powerful malevolent entity used its whole will to seal the augurs ability which would stop the people from believing in el because the people started to associate it with el being able to control the fate of everything and when the augurs lost their powers by association el must be false also.

My explanation about it mirroring the bible is going to take to long and even though i just completed the book yesterday i would need to reread the book to be able to explain my reasoning, it could also be that i that i have a bias and am grasping at straws.

P.S please excuse my horrible english

I really can't see the connection to the bible either. However it's clear that holy texts like the bible or quran includes many symbolic stories and metaphors that tries to "teach a lesson", many times told in a epic or tragic way - and fantasy, by it's nature, shares many of these.

Gotta agree that the audiobook was SUPER! That's how I found the book by looking for narrations by Michael Kraemer.

Malshash - is this guy Caeden/Aarkein Devaed? The reason why I suspect that he is because of the following:
1) The time rift keeps getting mentioned. He knows an awful lot about Aarkein Devaed and knows that the rift got destroyed. He says that nobody has survived the process (it had to be tested by someone)
2) He knows Davian intimately (the ring, the future) and states that he has attempted to change the future (just as he said that Aarkein Devaed tried to use the rift and failed)
3) He can communicate with Orkoth just as we know that Devaed/Caedan can communicate
4) Malshash grimaces when Davian asks if 'Aarkein Devaed' is the ancient/malevolent power and given how the rest of the novel is full of people blaming Devaed for the slightest maloccurrence I think that this more wholistic assessment of Devaed is because he is him and was/is contracted to the malevolent power.
5) We know that Caedan/Devaed has knowledge of regular shapeshifting as indicated at the end of the novel.
6) He's an Augur
7) The vessel that guides him to Caedan is the same one that Malshash gives him. Which makes me think that Caedan kept the vessel after Davian found him, eventually stole Ath's abilities (either to prevent Davian recognising him straight up or another reason) got stranded in the past somehow
8) In the scene where Davian is getting tortured the quote 'The only secrets a mind cannot give up are those it doesn't know' is very applicable so maybe that's the lesson Davian got out of whatever scenario was occurring in his future
9) We know that Davian is prophesised to defeat Devaed. What if the reason why Malshash is shocked when he sees Davian's face is because it's Devaed/his face? Furthermore, Davian is trying to imagine Wirr but that fails, but perhaps he defaults to whatever version of Caeden/Devaed he killed 'in the past' because he thinks of Caedan as his friend?

Shining wrote: "Malshash - is this guy Caeden/Aarkein Devaed? The reason why I suspect that he is because of the following:
1) The time rift keeps getting mentioned. He knows an awful lot about Aarkein Devaed and ..."

So I'm doing a reread and just reached the shape shifting part with Malshash and Davian where they discuss Devaed. I immediately came here to ask some of the same questions and hypothesize that Malshash was potentially Devaed.

You beat me to it. Great connections by the way. More than I had thought of.

Finished my reread the other day. I dont think Malshash is Caeden. For a minute i wondered if he was Taeris. Im not sure. Eager for the second book so many of my questions can be answered.

Shining actually hit the nail right on the head! Aarkein Devade, Malshash, Tal'kamar, and Caeden are all the same person (if you picked that up on your fist read hats off to you by the way!), here is why...

********Massive potential spoilers ahead!!! read on at your own risk*******

Shining was exactly right with his theory that Malshash is Caeden/Tal'kamar, it took me 1.5 reads to pick up on ad suspect that, and I am now on my 4th and am quite certain. I will delve into why and the implications this particular fact has on the future of the story now.

Proof that Malshash, Tal'kamar, and Caeden are all one and the same...

1. In Caeden's first flashback he sees a girl described as - the most beautiful girl he had ever seen, long dark hair, oval face, blue eyes

The description of Melshash's deceased wife - the most beautiful girl he had ever seen, long black hair, oval face, blue eyes

2. Tal'kamar in the prologue is described with - old eyes set into youthful features

Melshash as described by Davian - despite his youthful appearance there was something strange about his eyes, they seemed old

3. A quote from Tal'kamar in the prologue, "I found Nethgulla at the crossroads, I tortured her until she told me everything she knew"

Melshash took his shapeshifting powers from Nethgulla the Ath

4. Caeden has a great familiarity with Deilannis, and has more random memories there then anywhere else, because he lived there for a time

5. The portal box (the vessel that guides Davian to Caeden) was stolen from the Lyth by Tal'kamar, Melshash has it and is the one who links it to Davian, and himself saying that it is important for Davian to get it to Caeden

6. A quote from Tal'kamar to Davian "it was worth it, it changed me, and I am so very sorry"

A quote from Tal'kamar in the prologue "I followed the path he set me upon, I found proof" This final one is what gives the biggest indication of where the story is to go from here...

It is my belief that the prophecy about Davian saving the world from Devade will be fulfilled in the past. Malshash mentions that Auger "seeing" goes both forward and backward, and that most don't know that. In the past the auger predictions allegedly fail, if they wrote their visions as predictions of the future not knowing they were actually sing a person from the future in the past then they would never come true, because they had already happened. We know Tal'kamar kills whomever sets him on the path that leads him to the Waters of Renewal in the prologue, and mounts his head in Deilannis at the gates of Illadrial. If Tal'kamar and Malshash are the same then it is Davian who sets Devade on the path to redemption meaning in the future, probably the last thing he will do, Davian will go far in into the past confront Devade and be defeated, but in the process plant the seed in his mind that sets him on the eventual path to break his ties with "his lord" from the prologue. Meaning the skull at the gates is Davian's. Tal'kamar once finding the proof that "his lord" is "false" he escapes Talan Gol, and puts into motion a plan to defeat "his lord" and his forces. If Devade kills Davian, and Malshas and Devade are one and the same, this explains the sad look Malshash keeps giving Davian. We know Caeden poses as an evil venerate and sets Tenvar on his path to make Davian escape the school after the trials are moved up, as Telkamar he bribes a hunter to kill two of her own to keep Davian and Weer safe in their travels, these amazing coincidences could only be truly explained by a plan set in motion by a future Davian, and a Caedan from the past. I also expect that Davian being dropped off at the school as an infant will also be part of the plan they will orchestrate, knowing they would need him to befriend Weer so that the tenants can be changed.

What do you think? Is there proof enough to back up my theory? i wold love to get some outsider opinions on my theories and see what proofs for or contrary to them you can find!

Jarryd wrote: "Shining actually hit the nail right on the head! Aarkein Devade, Malshash, Tal'kamar, and Caeden are all the same person (if you picked that up on your fist read hats off to you by the way!), here ..."
I think you found a lot more supporting evidence for it than I did! But it was the shapeshifting powers that makes me most suspect that they are the same person.

Shining wrote: "Jarryd wrote: "Shining actually hit the nail right on the head! Aarkein Devade, Malshash, Tal'kamar, and Caeden are all the same person (if you picked that up on your fist read hats off to you by t..."

For me it was the description of the girl. That was what started me on the path to figuring out the mystery lol.

Jarryd wrote: "Shining actually hit the nail right on the head! Aarkein Devade, Malshash, Tal'kamar, and Caeden are all the same person (if you picked that up on your fist read hats off to you by the way!), here ..."

so your saying that Davian end will be to just die? after doing something to Devade mind? to make him break from is "lord" like in the prologue?

i thought it will be a story similar to the wheel of time, i read the book and i was searching for clues about the power of Davian, i thought he will be different from the other of is kind\maybe the strongest since Devade but he was no different.

i guess this will be a story that i will not like the end/

Lior wrote: "Jarryd wrote: "Shining actually hit the nail right on the head! Aarkein Devade, Malshash, Tal'kamar, and Caeden are all the same person (if you picked that up on your fist read hats off to you by t..."

I don't really know. That is just my current theory based off what I have gathered. I could be completely off base though. There are a lot more factors in play then the ones I mentioned in my first post.

I'm curious how close I am to the mark but more curious if others have different theories.

I believe Davian will become very powerful, and possibly be one of the strongest of his kind. It's mentioned that he is seen in prophecy as being a crucial part of the world and its future, however it is quite clear he is mortal and that the Venerate, are in a power class all their own.

I expect that if Davian is to die then it won't be until he is quite old. We already know thanks to Asha seeing him in her room chained up that he will at least reach adulthood.

All that said I still want to know what everyone else thinks! What do you guys think is going to happen?

Don't think Malshesh is Caeden
1 Caeden shape shifts into that body because his current one as talkemar is recognizable. Malshesh has changed daily. Also it was the last time Caeden shape shifted which would.mean the ability would revert to the Ath.
2. Alarias had one wife that died in old age.

A good point, and one I had considered. To me there are just too many things pointing to them being the same person. And given that everyone that is either hunting Caeden or knows his plans already knows he is Talkamar there may be a different reason for the change, as well as the 80 years may have given him greater control of the Ath's abilities. However, if you don't think they're the same person who do you think Malshash is? He's clearly more then some random Auger to help Davian on his way. Perhaps an important ally of Caedin's?

On the Alaris point I don't think that's actually a historical account just a fanciful interpretation of how Talkamar became enslaved and took on the persona of Devade.

A close companion would be my guess. I think Talkamar is the "old fool" he is referring to when he comments on Davians single scar. Also I am not convinced that 70 years makes a difference. It seems to me though it should be easy enough to learn by reading someone. Like when Davian learned to use a sword. Not sure why this is so different. I do agree that the fairy tale was probably more creative license and not an exact historical account.

I wondered about that comment too, and it's possibly my biggest reservation about them being one and the same, that said he could simply be referring to auger prophesies that predicted Davian's actions, and possibly even his own.

My biggest question would be the portal box. We know Caeden (Talkamar) is the one who steals it from the lyth, Malshash has it and links it to Davian, then it is again shown in Caeden's possession when he gives it to Tenvar to give to Davian. A pairing question to that being if not because of a past life as Malshas why does Caeden have such an intimate knowledge of Dylanus specifically?

The more that I think about it, the more I think that they are the same person (Caden/Tal'kamar/Devead/Malshash/Alaraeis Shar). I have went back and forth but the evidence is there, most has been pointed out in previous posts.

My question is when Talkamar gives the box to Tenvar, he tells him to let the heir (Wyrr) die. Why he do that?

Man I had been wondering that too! My best guesses are simply that he didn't know how important he would be to the future, or that he already knew he would escape with Davian and wanted to keep up evil appearances, ultimately I have no clue. With the second book coming out later this year I'm pumped to have some of the questions answered. Do you have any ideas?

Also... who is this Shadraheen woman? Who is she that she can give orders to a pre-war augur and have them followed?

No idea yet. It's certainly possible she doesn't know Sighner is an auger, and he's just using her to get to something he wants, or something like that.

About to do another re-read in anticipation of the sequel being released. Should be able to contribute a bit more after that. Thanks to everyone for your participation in this thread. Very much look forward to Echo's release.

I'm doing a re-read as well in preparation for An Echo Of Things To Come. Shadow is one of my absolute favourite fantasy books, it's strange how it hasn't been more widely read. Great to read the comments here and to have a place to do a bit of theorising. I just wanted to get a few brief thoughts out there before the next book comes out, let me know if you agree or if you think I'm way off base:

I think Caeden, Davian and Wirr are all ancients who have taken many forms throughout the years. This confirmed for Caeden who has been Tal'kamar, Alarias and Davead. But there's evidence that the same goes for Davian and Wirr, what with Caeden making sure that the box used to find him went to Davian. And when Davian travelled back in time in Deilannis and tries to shapeshift into Wirr's form, the form he took was of an older guy, and that form seemed to scare Malshash. I think all three characters used to be bad guys but they're now rebelling against Ghash, the evil being/god from the prologue.

I was also thinking about how Asha fits into it all. She is visited by Davian from the future, and he tells her that in the future she shouldn't come rescue him as he is just bait for her. So I think she is the central character of some prophecy or something, and Caeden, Davian and Wirr in their past forms realised this. Asha is the chosen one, true god or something, not Ghash (the truth Tal'kamar finds is that Ghash is false), so they make a plan to escape him, turn good and help Asha. Also remember how Asha didn't get killed when the Gifted school was attacked, must either be cos she's immensely powerful or it was part of Tal'kamar's overall plan.

Btw, I've set up a Facebook group for fans to the discuss The Licanius Trilogy, since there doesn't seem to be any central place for such discussions. Here it is: www.facebook.com/groups/thelicaniustr...

Hi everyone! Started Echo today and I'm super pumped! Wanted to post again since there are more posts, first I would love to join the Facebook group and have sent my request! Second I can't wait for threads to start on the page for Echo. And finally with the confirmation that both Caedin and Malshash were Lord Deshrell is it confirmed that they are one and the same?

I got Echo yesterday! Just started it at work today and I'm psyched to get some answers!!

Can't wait for the new thread.

Great book but I have a question, is the story that Davian read about the three tasks Licanius was given from somewhere else, I mean an other book or something, It felt so familiar but I can't place it.

So, I am almost finished with /The Shadow of What Was Lost/, and I am LOVING it. When I was reading yesterday, though, I read the chapter wherein Scyner is revealed as a pre-war Auger. In addition to killing Kol, he says that he has killed many augers. This really threw me for a loop. If he is an Auger, why is he killing other augers? I don't understand his motivations at all, and there was nothing in the chapter that made it seem like others were especially confused by his actions. Did I miss something in my reading?

Chris, you didn’t miss anything. Haha. RAFO! AEoTTC was great as well. Many of your questions will be answered.

Just finished SoWWL and found this thread. I'm really intrigued by so much. I'm dead convinced Malshash is Caedan, because the Guardian said Tal'Kamar created the "Plains of Decay" for love of a woman long lost, which would fit with Malshash destroying everything around him to try to save his wife.

Which then blew my mind that that could be Caedan, from the future, who went to the past, with Davian's ring, to draw Davian back, to teach Davian, and on and on.

I'm assuming Scyner was instrumental in starting or ending the Unseen War since he flat out says he killed all the other Augurs. There were 12 he killed, meaning 12 more to replace them would be born: Dav, Erran, Kol, Fessi, Shel, 4 killed by Elocien, that leaves 3 yet to be discovered, plus Scyner and Caedan/Tal/Davaed/Malshash.

I also noticed the teeth tapping! That's really really really really really bothering me. Future Davian knows who the real Shadraehein is, but she and Scyner and *the princess* all have the same tic. That's freaking me out. Scyner seems insanely powerful, he easily could be shape shifting into all three of them, although they wouldn't make complete sense, so maybe it's just a writing technique and I'm getting too deep in the weeds.

I'm also positive Alairis from the story is Caedan. That he ended up servant to something.

Also, it's wild that the Big Bad is... A legendary and somewhat heroic dude? Who the hell was he serving? Was he the Sauron to a Morgoth? My mind is twisting.

Matt, great comments. Ironically, I'm currently read SoWWL for the 4th time now. My two eldest children are old enough now to read, enjoy, and understand it so I wanted to do something together that we could discuss. I'm nearly done with it, but due to life events wasn't able to read as often as I wanted. They both read it and are nearly done with Light (the final volume in the series).

I'll say if you enjoyed Shadow, you will love this series. It is top 2 in my all time greatest. I rarely do rereads and as you can see I'm on my 4th trip through this world. It is fantastic. One of the best stories I've ever read and extremely well executed.

Echo helps to shine a lot of light on things. Light does as well and Islington does an incredible job of concluding the series.

Lastly, if you haven't already, I highly recommend you pick up Islington's latest work: The Will of the Many. It is top tier fantasy. I was blown away!

I just finished Chapter 38 in Echoes (Where you learn a *ton* from The Ath) and it absolutely blew my mind. The purpose of the Shadows, the Identity of the Shadraehein, jaw dropping!! What a mind melt!

I picked up Will of the Many today, but still have a few books to go to get to it. I'm loving this series, the way it's possible to figure things out and yet still have the rug pulled out from under you is fantastic