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OHB Week 4 - Chapters 41-50
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3 more chapters.....I do like this slightly more grown up Philip than I did the teenage version. More later
My favorite thing in this section is Fanny Price. She is awful, clearly very difficult and makes herself very hard to get along with, but from our first introduction to her I found myself thinking that something must be happening with or to her that makes her act that way. She's clearly very passionate about her art, but also seems alone. And then as the chapters roll out we get glimpses of how desperately poor she must be (owning only one dress, not eating out with the crowd, devouring food when she does lunch with Phillip). That kind of abject poverty and hunger would make me really hard to get along with as well. And yet she still keeps up with the art classes. It makes me wonder about her inner steel. I am not an artist and so I have such a hard time wrapping my head around such an amazing need to paint and continue with classes, rather than eat. Is it a passion for an art form and an expression, or is it delusion that she's actually just right around the corner from amazing things? Is it escapism from a more awful life? I don't really know.
Fanny also, clearly, doesn't let anyone in, makes no emotional connections with anyone, expect that she opens the door, just a crack, to Phillip. Why? Is it because of some kindred spirit of being unknown and alone in the world?
I suspect that Fanny will haunt Phillip's life, in some way, in the later parts of this book.
As for the omnipresence of the art and the critique of artists and their works and their worths in this section, I found that interesting only in the way that it's a commentary on the relatively privileged set that Phillip finds himself amongst. The fact that Fanny is starving on one page, and Lawton, Clawson, etc., are having these very intense critiques of art on the other seems an interesting juxtaposition to me. I know nothing of art so I have no idea the merits of their critiques, but it does seem as if they may have been giving voice to Maugham's on thoughts on the subject.
I'm finding Phillip a more likeable character but I'm not sure if it's sympathy due to my being in a similar situation as he found himself in. Some triggers for me in this part.
Jen wrote: " The fact that Fanny is starving on one page, and Lawton, Clawson, etc., are having these very intense critiques of art on the other seems an interesting juxtaposition to me."I really like that way of putting it. When one's life is a struggle simply to survive, there may not be human resource left for esoteric discussions of art, or in other contexts of philosophy, religion, etc.
Ginny wrote: "Some triggers for me in this part. "Part of the emotional power of this book is that it has so many triggers.
Jen wrote: "My favorite thing in this section is Fanny Price. She is awful, clearly very difficult and makes herself very hard to get along with, but from our first introduction to her I found myself thinking..."I too am having trouble deciding how I feel about Fanny and her dedication to art. Of course she is a pitiable figure, especially when it comes out that she is literally starving to death and no one realizes it. Is her devotion to art admirable and heart-breaking, or tragically bizarre? I mean, I can understand her desire to escape the life of a governess, and women had precious few options in those days.
Okay, just writing this has helped me clarify my thoughts. Fanny's reality has been toiling in poverty as an upper servant, raising other people's children. She has a dream, a vision of herself as an artist--talented, respected, admired. She turns her back on reality and enters the world of her dream. Unfortunately, she is unable to live up to the dream. Her pursuit of greatness as an artist is like me (tone-deaf, can't carry a tune in a bucket) thinking I'm going to be the next Whitney Houston. Despite all evidence to the contrary, she clings to the fantasy. She dismisses all criticism, excusing it as favoritism, jealousy, or stupidity. I think her complete abandonment to her dream makes her death inevitable. I think, in her mind, she did not consider returning to reality in the form of her former life as an option. Since success was also not a possibility, she chose to die within the bubble of her delusion. She dies--still, in her mind, an artist.
Oh Fanny, Funny. She broke my heart. So lonely and striving for attention and affection. Working so hard at something she loves dearly with no chance for success. Living in the most abject poverty....I cannot imagine that life. I was struck by how kind Philip was to Fanny despite the fact she was quite frankly pretty annoying. Throughout this section, it was so clear to me that Fanny was not capable of forming a true relationship. She viewed kindness with skepticism and compliments were viewed as masked insults. She was jealous when Philip engaged with others yet at one point she was so hurtful to Philip bringing attention to his club foot as a reason they were meant for one another. I was not surprised by Fanny's suicide though I was saddened by how Philip found her. For a young man that has had a life full of tragedy this was so heartbreaking. And her brother... wow....I do find myself wondering what the history was there. I'm sure this event will be something that haunts Philip for some time.Now on to Philip....
First a little honesty, I know next to nothing about art so much of the art dialog was a big yawner for me. What I did see in these sections is a Philip that has found some peace and some happiness for a time. Possibly for the first time in his life. He also continues to do a great deal of thinking and trying to find his way in the world. He has a growing confidence that I was happy to see. And though he still seems confused about his future, I am glad to see that he is questioning his future in art. His goals are definitely higher than to be "second-rate" at anything. Sounds like it is almost time to say good-bye to Paris and to the art world.
My favorite part of this section was the discussion between Phillip and Cronshaw about "abstract morality" I found that whole discussion fascinating and reminded me of the kinds of late night conversations I used to have in college.I didn't really like Fanny but I thought her suicide was tragic and her brother horrible.
I'm still waffling back and forth on how I feel about Phillip. I liked him better in this section than the previous one.
Amanda wrote: "My favorite part of this section was the discussion between Phillip and Cronshaw about "abstract morality" I found that whole discussion fascinating and reminded me of the kinds of late night conve..."I did find some of the interesting. I especially liked this quote "Men perform actions because they are good for him, and when they are good for other people as well they are thought virtuous". I though how true a statement this is. I can see this is my own life. I work long hours and spend much more time than is expected making sure all my patients are tucked in so to speak. I frequently call patients myself rather than allow staff to do it. Sure it benefits my patients but in all honesty I do it because it makes me feel good about what I do.
He actually seems to start thinking about other people and their feelings at this point. Part of his consideration for Fanny is because she is helpful to him and he wants to stay on her good side, but his reaction to her death is completely altruistic. The fact that he's getting older plays a part in his maturation, but his travels and exposure to different people and new ideas is undoubtedly having their effect, as well. I, too, am starting to find him tolerable!
Amanda wrote: "My favorite part of this section was the discussion between Phillip and Cronshaw about "abstract morality" I found that whole discussion fascinating and reminded me of the kinds of late night conve..."Wait until next week's reading!
Stupid question, but can't work out how to quote other people (or the book itself) or are you just copy and pasting?
Cindy@7: I too am having trouble deciding how I feel about Fanny and her dedication to art. Of course she is a pitiable figure, especially when it comes out that she is literally starving to death and no one realizes it. Is her devotion to art admirable and heart-breaking, or tragically bizarre?Having spent many years training and performing as an opera singer, it seems bizarre, but it's not as uncommon as you might think. A perfect example is that Reality Show, American Idol. I haven't watched it for years (it got old pretty quick), but they used to include what they thought of as hilarious cuts of tryouts by people who obviously couldn't sing. I mean, they were terrible. The audience thought they were funny, but I found them painful to watch. These people weren't trying to be funny. They honestly thought they were talented singers and only needed to be discovered by some perceptive, appreciative person or professional entity. They were sincerely hurt, disappointed, and sometimes devastated, by their failures.
I used to see it during the years I was training at home and abroad. I would run into singers who just didn't have the talent to succeed. They had usually been originally vetted (as was I) through a university music program and encouraged in their major. Forgetting of course, that many professors aren't going to be honest because, after all, their livelihood and departmental funding depends upon keeping participation in their programs at a nice even level (I was married to a concert pianist who took a professor position and know firsthand the rosy picture music professors will paint to their students). These kids spend years studying and practicing and performing in the university cocoon of sponsored operas and musicals. Then, they get out into the real world and encounter objective, unfeeling feedback for the first time. It's devastating to them.
The people who succeed are those who know how to honestly assess their talent and maximize it to its limits. That means being honest with yourself as to your talent. Are you top of the heap (rare) or are you 2nd tier (big group), or are you someone what won't make it in the business (very big group). As a young person, it was hard for me to be that honest and come to the realization that I was in the 2nd Tier Group. I mean, we all want to think we are the next Sutherland or Pavarotti, but that talent is very, very rare. And it's best to know it so that you can train and develop the talent you do have and market it.
So, as I read these chapters, I found most of these young characters to be under varying states of fantasy/delusion with regard to their ability - but not to the same depth as Fanny's. And I wonder if, in Fanny's last starved, weakened moments, Foinet's comments came back to her, to rip away her intense hold upon her delusion. And I wonder if that is what finally drove her to give up everything - including her life.
And, speaking of Foinet, and Cronshaw for that matter: they too have had their delusions stripped away, although we don't find out about it until the last chapters. They present this façade of ability and artistic aura, but in actuality, they too are merely second-rate. And they know it. They didn't take the same avenue as Fanny; instead, theirs is a different kind of death. The death of their hopes, dreams, confidence in their talent. They stayed too long pursing their delusions and now it is too late for them. That's why they drop that façade long enough to let Philip know he should get out while he can.
To me, it seems as if we see Philip becoming a little more self-aware and a little more discerning of others. But, he is also still a very young adult, so we see the "puppy" come out. I liked the part where, because he wants to "do something characteristic" he goes to a café and order Absinthe. "He drank with nausea and satisfaction. He found the taste disgusting, but the moral effect magnificent; he felt every inch an art-student; and since he drank on an empty stomach his spirits presently grew very high."
Adorable. And haven't we all done something like that?
The ability of Philip to dispassionately view his own work and assess his talent: do you think it comes from a lack of self-esteem he has been burdened with for so many years, and which it seems as if he is freeing himself, at least a little?He does provide a interesting, refreshing (and very accurate) insight into being an artist - the fact that all the self-confidence and drive in the world cannot make you talented. It can only make you maximize the talent you were born with.
"Philip looked at his own work. How could you tell whether there was anything in it or whether you were wasting your time? It was clear that the will to achieve could not help you and confidence in yourself meant nothing. Philip thought of Fanny Price; she had a vehement belief in her talent; her strength of will was extraordinary. 'If I thought I wasn't going to be really good I'd rather give up painting,' said Philip. 'I don't see any use in being a second-rate painter'".
As we know, and as we learn from reading about Cronshaw and Foinet, Philip's critical self-examination at such a young age is a rare talent in and of itself.
Throughout all these chapters, I enjoyed the artistic conversations because in reality, all of these students are like the story of the blind men touching an elephant and defining what it was by the little part they touched.
Philip's friends all talk and emote about genius and talent, and they all have different ideas of what those things really are and what it takes to be successful and recognized. They each latch onto one piece of the artistic elephant. Fanny thinks it's a matter of drive and hard work, Clutton is on the other end of the spectrum and says all it takes is genius and vision. Lawson is more about technique.
When, in reality, to be successful, you need it all. First you do need sheer talent. And that's a kicker, because it's something you are born with. But, talent will only get you so far. Regardless,some artists are content with relying on their talent. But talent is like a raw diamond. It needs polishing. Technique. It has to be good technique or the talent can be marred. And, if you don't have drive, your talent won't ever get itself up off the sofa to do the hard work of practicing and refining technique. And it won't get you through all the grueling auditions and rejections and more auditions, and submitting your work and being rejected, or meeting deadlines.
Genius is a wonderful thing, but it needs a lot of refining to fully express itself.
Paula wrote: "Cindy@7: I too am having trouble deciding how I feel about Fanny and her dedication to art. Of course she is a pitiable figure, especially when it comes out that she is literally starving to death ..."Thanks for the insight! It's great to get the perspective of someone who has been inside that artistic world. What a difficult position for those professors to be in--to have talent and the ability to recognize it, and to be forced by circumstances to encourage those who clearly do not have it. I didn't really see anyone giving Fanny that false hope, but I can certainly understand that she may have been unable to admit to herself that she belonged in that 3rd tier. To want something so desperately that she abandons her entire life, walking away from everything familiar and the only security she has, only to find that it is a lost cause--what a terrible realization.
Your points about the necessity for talent, technique and drive are also so true! There are many talented people who will live their lives in obscurity due to a lack of drive--"full many a flower is born to blush unseen" and so on. Thanks so much for your enlightening comments--I thoroughly enjoyed them!
Hi Cindy! Yes, Fanny was her own private fuel source for all of her fantasies. I just wish it wasn't as common as it is. It's a very tough business.
Cindy wrote: " She turns her back on reality and enters the world of her dream. Unfortunately, she is unable to live up to the dream. Her pursuit of greatness as an artist is like me (tone-deaf, can't carry a tune in a bucket) thinking I'm going to be the next Whitney Houston. Despite all evidence to the contrary, she clings to the fantasy. She dismisses all criticism, excusing it as favoritism, jealousy, or stupidity. I think her complete abandonment to her dream makes her death inevitable. I ..."Yes, I like your insight into Fanny. She also reminds me of that person who, when you are new to a school or a job or a club, immediately stakes a claim on you and becomes your best friend... only to turn out to be a clinging, needy irritation who is so emotionally dependent and possessive it's very hard to extract yourself from their obsession, gently or otherwise. The reason everyone else was tired of her was probably because she had her shot at each one of them.
And yes, her illusions about her life and her art and herself were ultimately, and foreseeably, self-destructive. She was pitiable, and Philip had the heart to pity her.
So, does anyone know why there is a character (Fanny Price) named after Jane Austen's main character Fanny Price in the novel Mansfield Park? The two characters are not alike in any obvious way that I can tell. Is Maugham paying an homage to Austen?
Sarah wrote: "Stupid question, but can't work out how to quote other people (or the book itself) or are you just copy and pasting?"Yep. Just cut and paste. Actually, when you hit "reply" to a post it automatically gives you the first hundred or so words of the post, but that can be freely edited, and if it's a post with more than one point, and I'm responding to a point made in the middle of the post, I usually delete the automatically quoted material and cut and paste in what I'm actually replying to.
If you wonder how your post will look, whether you have the italics in the right place, for example, to the right of the Post button is the (preview) button which will show what your post will look like. I find it useful when I've got a somewhat complex post.
Paula wrote: "Having spent many years training and performing as an opera singer, it seems bizarre, but it's not as uncommon as you might think. "Excellent and insightful post. Nice to see you able to get into the psyche of Fanny and explain why she isn't irrational, or at least isn't abnormal when it comes to people who are desperate to believe that they have a talent they lack.
Paula wrote: "Throughout all these chapters, I enjoyed the artistic conversations because in reality, all of these students are like the story of the blind men touching an elephant and defining what it was by the little part they touched. "Nice. And when they are referring to critics, they're supplementing their touching with the second hand touching of others, who may be as blind as they are but are better able to disguise it.
I like the conversation about Fanny in particular. We have Philip for the whole book but Fanny only for a little while. I think she's one of the best drawn characters in the book so far. I felt that her art must have been a vital part of her and she really didn't want to admit that it was flawed. I think this fear made her reject everyone around her, ironically with the same comments that would hurt her so badly. I think when Philip came, she saw the clubfoot and saw someone that she thought was weak in a way. Someone who would tell her that her art was brilliant, which he did in fact do. By being so offensive with people she could always say their critiques were simply jealousy or dislike. She was such a tragic character. The scene when Philip took her to lunch and she cried over her meal was heartbreaking. I thought he was a bit dense to not realize that she was starving when he was reflecting on her appearance and her frayed dress.Her brother was truly appalling, but he was also another incarnation of Carey, I think. I can understand being frustrated with a family member who is in a self destructive situation and refuses to behave sensibly, but he was incredibly callous.
There was a discussion when Philip was leaving with Lawson and Chalice for that vacation where Philip and she points out how Chalice has been the lover of everyone under the sun and I just thought "OMG, she's being such a WOMAN!". It's probably unkind to women in general to think this but I do think that this is a really accurate portrayal that Maugham does. I just wish I hadn't been so utterly sexist in my thinking. I did appreciate the humor of it when she said "You're just the same as all of them. You take all you can get, and you don't even say thank you. I've taught you everything you know."
Cindy wrote: "Jen wrote: "My favorite thing in this section is Fanny Price. She is awful, clearly very difficult and makes herself very hard to get along with, but from our first introduction to her I found mys..."I LOVE this description of Fanny. The escape into fantasy is a thread or explanation of her that I just didn't pick up on in this section but it makes so much sense. We think the drive to be an artist is so crazy and must be awful for her, but in fact, it's probably better than what she's left behind.
This was my favorite section so far. I loved the irascible Fanny Price with her generosity of spirit and her strength of will against the odds. She is literally starving to death in order to try and make of herself something beyond what society has outlined. The fact that she's failing gin spite of her exhaustive effort is such a tragedy. But, she shines so brightly, is so different from any of the other female characters whom SM had peppered onto the story, that I have a sincere hope of characters to come as Phillip travels through the sequences off his life. And her brother! Disgusting! What a weak and selfish coward! Yet how deftly SM presents and exposes him with searing clarity in just a few paragraphs.
My interest in the novel has definitely increased. It seems the further I get the more I am drawn into the characters and appreciative of the writing.
Renee wrote: "My interest in the novel has definitely increased. It seems the further I get the more I am drawn into the characters and appreciative of the writing..."Exactly the same thing has happened to me... almost in spite of myself I have become invested in Philip -- flawed and foolish as he can be.
I haven't quite finished this section yet and haven't read everyone's comments but seriously, what is it with Philip and women??? He either has older, apparently unattractive, desperate, clingy, irrational women attracted to him, or he's pining away over someone when he's not around them, but then thinks all manner of things about her are ugly when she's actually in view! It's like his own deformity makes him uber-conscious of perceived deformities in others. Or maybe that's the point, I don't know. Mostly I just want to shake him and tell him to grow up!
Ok, now I'm finished. I was actually impressed with how Philip handled (view spoiler).This whole section just makes me think of youths of our era seeking fame in acting or singing, going to places like L.A. or New York (or equivalents in other countries), trying to get "discovered." Only a precious few will, and many lose who they are along the way.
I think by the end of this section Philip is finally starting to see that, to realize that he likes the IDEA of art, but at heart, he is practical, and doesn't like the lifelong idea of the "starving artist." He doesn't want to turn into Fanny, or into all the others who think it's ok to abandon everything of honor in the world just for the fleeting, indefinable "art." I think it's most clearly illustrated by this segment:
Of late Philip had been captivated by an idea that since one had only one life it was important to make a success of it, but he did not count success by the acquiring of money or the achieving of fame; he did not quite know yet what he meant by it..."
Now to read all of your comments :)
Alana wrote: "I haven't quite finished this section yet and haven't read everyone's comments but seriously, what is it with Philip and women??? "Well, perhaps we should keep in mind that he was educated in boys school, where I expect the discussions got fairly provocative even in that day an age, and his vacations were spend in a clergyman's house where it doesn't appear that he had much if any of a chance to meet young women in a casual social atmosphere. So how was he to learn what he should expect and how he should interact appropriately with women?
True, although I think his choice of friends probably contributed as well. They didn't seem like the best "catches" for the women around them, either. He just somehow seems to end up with women around him who fall into on extreme or another. Hopefully he begins to grow up about this... don't they say men mature more slowly than women? Or is that just a modern societal perception?
Alana wrote: "don't they say men mature more slowly than women? Or is that just a modern societal perception? "They certainly do say it. But you may, as the novel progresses, find that maybe it isn't as true in all cases here.
I find myself believing that Fanny Price is more than a fictional character. Maugham drew me in with his writing. I could see her tatty clothing that passed for a dress. The scene on entering her apartment is still vivid in my mind's eye. That overwhelming feeling of hopelessness is palpable. I feel angry and almost incredulous that no one actually opened his/her eyes in order to 'see' this woman and her needs. I ask myself why nobody showed concern for her. If someone had reached out to her, the tragic ending may have been circumvented. I suppose that their obsession with success may have pulled the wool over their eyes as they concerned themselves with themselves and only with themselves.It is true that her prickly defensiveness may have made any approach towards her incredibly difficult. Fanny was her own worst enemy. Set on success and blinded by it, she was a hard nut to crack. No wonder that she was all out for herself. Who else was going to be her cheerleader? Certainly not her brother! What a thoroughly despicable human being. I'm sure, like Hitler, he liked his dog, though! Poor, poor Fanny ...
I agree that Fanny was a wonderful character. I can easily imagine that she was drawn from a real person, as well.
Oops, Renee, I wanted to say that that would certainly explain why she rings so true.
We’re now in Paris, where Philip has decided to try his hand at becoming an artist. Quite a difference from accounting!
We meet a whole new cast of characters who (whom?) Philip has to learn about and adjust to. It occurred to me that this is perhaps something Maugham is doing intentionally – even in his fairly short life, Philip has had (so far) to enter into and adjust to four major very different environments and sets of characters. At school, in Heidelberg, in London, and now in Paris. Each location has its own set of characters Philip has to learn about and interact with, but he has so far never in any of these places (with the possible exception of school) stayed long enough to form lasting relationships that would carry over into his later life.
In Heidelberg we had discussions about life and philosophy. Now in Paris we get discussions about painting and art. In both places we meet what I would consider pseudo-intellectual dilettantes.
In the last chapter of the previous section we met Fanny Price, Clutton, and Lawson, but now we’re beginning to get to know these characters. Fanny seems worth a major psychological study; an obviously untalented student who believes, apparently sincerely, that she is destined to be a major artist even though it’s apparent to everybody else that that is nonsense. But she’s generous with her time and suggestions (though eventually everybody apparently gets tired of her). Her relationship with Philip (and his with her) also deserves an extended analysis, doesn’t it?
Philip also gets introduced to the café society of the poor student in Paris, where he meets and becomes friendly with, among others, Clutton, Lawson, and Cronshow (who strikes me in some respects as an artsy equivalent of Hayward). In the discussions of art, one wonders how much Maugham is actually representing his own thinking. For example:
Clutton contending that “let us not sully our chaste lips with the names of J. Ruskin, G.F. Watts, or E.B. Jones” [41] I don’t know Watts or Jones, but Ruskin was (and to my mind still is) a very readable commentator on art, among other subjects. Wikipedia calls him “the leading English art critic of the Victorian era, also an art patron, draughtsman, watercolourist, a prominent social thinker and philanthropist,” and contends that after a period of declining interest “today, his ideas and concerns are widely recognised as having anticipated interest in environmentalism, sustainability and craft.”
Or the suggestion that the Great Victorians should be hurled into a bonfire on their 40th birthdays. [41]
Or Cronshaw’s question “What is art besides love?” [42] (Which he follows by contending that art “is merely the refuge which the ingenious have invented, when they were supplied with food and women, to escape the tediousness of life.” [42]
Or Clutton: “I believe I'm through with the Impressionists; I've got an idea they'll seem very thin and superficial in a few years.” [48]
I’m sure you can add your own favorite passages about the discussions of the arts to this list.
Eventually Philip leaves the school to set up a studio with Lawson, which lasts for some months, until he moves out when he gets the loan of a studio, where he engages the Spaniard Miguel Ajuria to sit for him, and has a moment of I think critical introspection:
Philip looked at his own work. How could you tell whether there was anything in it or whether you were wasting your time? It was clear that the will to achieve could not help you and confidence in yourself meant nothing. Philip thought of Fanny Price; she had a vehement belief in her talent; her strength of will was extraordinary.
"If I thought I wasn't going to be really good, I'd rather give up painting," said Philip. "I don't see any use in being a second-rate painter." [48]
Then at the end of chapter 48 we get a major plot event which I have put in spoiler quotes for those who haven’t yet gotten to that chapter. Since it happens in this section it’s fair game to discuss, so nobody else needs to “spoiler” it, but I didn’t want to include it in open text in this initial post.
(view spoiler)[
We end this section with another punch to the emotional gut – the suicide of Fanny Price, Philip finding the body and then the paper with his name written on it over and over. How often is it that we don’t realize how important we are to other people until it’s too late? And what a tragic and lonely life she chose to live, when apparently she could have gone back to London and resumed life as a governess. Was death really preferable to that?
And what about her brother’s response to her suicide, particularly viewing it as an injury done him (and his wife and children?) – inhuman, understandable, cruel, pathetic, how would you describe it?
And how sad that of the small group who attended the funeral, “they had all disliked her during her life.” (hide spoiler)]
And then we have that visit with Flanagan to the Bal Bullier. Watching the woman, “it seemed to Philip that they had thrown off the guard which people wear on their expression, the homage to convention, and he saw them now as they really were...Philip loathed them, and yet his heart ached with the infinite pity which filled him.”