Reading the Chunksters discussion

We're back in London, where Philip has decided on yet another career attempt, this time following his father into medicine. We get a preliminary look at medical school in the 1890s (when my grandfather was studying medicine in London -- he might well have run across Philip Carey at some point!), but the primary focus of these chapters is his relationship with Mildred.

I'm curious what people think about this relationship. Does it ring true? Is this how a person of Philip's character would actually have behaved?

Is this simply a classic example of "I don't know what he sees in her"?

I'm in the "what does he see in her" camp. Philip never finds one positive trait in Mildred--"he did not think her pretty; he hated the thinness of her . . . he did not like her mouth, and the unhealthiness of her color vaguely repelled him," and "she was not amusing or clever, her mind was common; she had a vulgar shrewdness which revolted him, she had no gentleness or softness." Even looking at her through the lens of adoration, he can find nothing to compliment. It's not even "what does he see in her?" We have the answer to that question--he sees nothing good in her. I can't fathom how he imagines himself in love; what is there to love? It's not even a case of lust for a beautiful woman who is a terrible person--he seems to have as much of a problem with her appearance as he does her character. Is it possible to madly lust for someone you find physically repellent? He describes her skin as being green!

Everyman, you have said that this book is partly autobiographical. I was wondering, as I read of Philip's passion with growing distaste, if this affair is some sort of metaphor for something in Maugham's life. I can't imagine it being a literal representation of an affair. I could be wrong, but I just don't see how a person can fall in love with someone who seems to be despicable in every sense from the get-go.

I have the sinking feeling that Mildred's not going to just discreetly disappear as Miss Wilkinson did. I also fear that Philip will doom his chances at yet another profession by this mad behavior!

I haven't met Mildred quite yet. But I did thoroughly enjoy the description of that first day in anatomy lab. And the continuous description of the smell....I can still remember it. They are right though.....you get used to it. During my first year of medical school gross anatomy lab was conveniently always right before lunch. After a few weeks going into lab off hours would cause your stomach to growl with hunger.

In all seriousness I am forever grateful to the person that donated their body for the sake of my education. It is certainly a rite of passage for any medical student but training would not be complete without it.

Hopefully I will meet Mildred later tonight. I'm going to be playing catch up again soon. My greatest hobby is baseball and the All Star game is in my home town. And I will be there. But please know I am tremendously enjoying this group.

Cindy wrote: " I was wondering, as I read of Philip's passion with growing distaste, if this affair is some sort of metaphor for something in Maugham's life. I can't imagine it being a literal representation of an affair. "

That's a really great question. I know that his sexual/love life was somewhat complicated, but I don't know who, if anyone, Mildred might have been based on.

I think Maugham may be suggesting that Philip's deformity (like his own) made him incapable of a "normal" sexual relationship -- his affair with Miss W certainly speaks to that -- and he is therefore drawn somehow but inexorably to other people with deformities of their own.

I'm not that much for the deep psychological analysis of characters, but if anybody here is, they should have a go at both Philip and Mildred, as well as their relationship. In the meantime, though, I contemplate what Maugham is saying about love; it may be that rather than anything about Mildred specifically that arises from his own life.

But all this is speculation, of course.

Philip claims he loves Mildred, and he hates himself for loving her, and he also hates her, except that he loves her...

This is not love, this is an obsession about someone (thing) he can't have. It's crazy and futile, but the pain is exquisite and the obsession owns him (as obsessions can do). I've certainly gone through phases like this (at about the same age as Philip), and many women I know have (it's not a condition limited only to men).

Philips wants to possess Mildred, to win her... like it was a horserace. The moral of this kind of story is -- you can't make people love you, and you can't have what's not yours to take. I hope Philip learns his lesson.

Janice George (JG) wrote: "Philip claims he loves Mildred, and he hates himself for loving her, and he also hates her, except that he loves her... "

Very interesting perspective.

But I'm thinking about any commonality between his relationship with Miss W and with Mildred. He was also disgusted by Miss M, but there was no issue with something you can't have, because he did. (And regretted it afterward.) But he apparently didn't learn anything from that.

I've also been trying to plumb the depths of the love / hate. Phillip is clearly obsessed with Mildred, in that unhealthy way that many young people experience, but the level of disgust that he also has for her is so interesting. I guess in my experience, when one is obsessed like Philip clearly is, your mind does everything in can to rationlize why this person is good and suitable for you, but it's like Philip is trying to come up with every reason to hate her and move on. And as I write this I suppose this is a coping mechanism as well.

I also find myself really disliking Phillip again. His arrogance and petulance are very unattractive. The last section I felt a little sympathy for him, thought he was growing and learning, and then Mildred is introduced and we're back to rotten Phillip. I want to shake him and say 'get it together man'. And again, that's probably purposeful on Maugham's point, and why this is a classic piece of literature.

Jen wrote: " I want to shake him and say 'get it together man'. And again, that's probably purposeful on Maugham's point, and why this is a classic piece of literature. "

It certainly is provocative!

There's an interesting comment on Philip's character early in Chapter 51, when Foinet comes to look at Philip's work. He had asked Foinet, but when he actually agreed to come, Philip regretted it. As with his winning the right to go to Germany, once again he got what he wanted, but regretted getting it. "If he had dared he would have asked Foinet to go away. He did not want to know the truth."

Foinet also gives Philip an interesting piece of advice which seems quite contrary to the stereotype of the high value of an artist starving in a garret for his art:

"There is nothing so degrading as the constant anxiety about one's means of livelihood. I have nothing but contempt for the people who despise money. They are hypocrites or fools. Money is like a sixth sense without which you cannot make a complete use of the other five. Without an adequate income half the possibilities of life are shut off. The only thing to be careful about is that you do not pay more than a shilling for the shilling you earn. You will hear people say that poverty is the best spur to the artist. They have never felt the iron of it in their flesh. They do not know how mean it makes you. It exposes you to endless humiliation, it cuts your wings, it eats into your soul like a cancer. It is not wealth one asks for, but just enough to preserve one's dignity, to work unhampered, to be generous, frank, and independent. I pity with all my heart the artist, whether he writes or paints, who is entirely dependent for subsistence upon his art."

I agree with Janice it's not love it's obsession. At first I found it sad and slightly pathetic but then I thought it bordered on stalkerish. If that kind of behavior happened today ( constantly being at someone's employment, showing up at their train station, spying on them when they were on a date with someone else) we call that person a stalker.

I feel sorry for Phillip. He just can't seem to find his way. At the same time though he is not easy for me to like.

Everyman wrote: "There's an interesting comment on Philip's character early in Chapter 51, when Foinet comes to look at Philip's work. He had asked Foinet, but when he actually agreed to come, Philip regretted it...."

Be careful what you wish for right?

Jen wrote: "I want to shake him and say 'get it together man'."

Ha! I was thinking the same thing. I kept wanting to reach into the pages and shake some sense into Philip!

I also agree that Mildred is an obsession, and it began when he was angry with her for not being pleasant to him when she waited on him and his friend the first time. He simply couldn't get over her attitude after he tried to put on his charms to get a laugh out of her, and he wasn't going to let it go. And somehow to him it turned into "love"?

Catching up. The relationship between Philip and Mildred is quite interesting. Clearly Philip has no concept of what love truly is. It's sad to see how willing he is to be mistreated just to spend time with her.

Mildred too is interesting. She really borders on being an escort as it seems she goes out with many men. The pin she stuck in her shirt to poke a man trying to put his arm around her waste both amused and horrified me. She is a puzzling character. I can't tell whether she is leading him on....I don't think so....or whether she is simply accepting of what he gives her. I would love to learn more about her background.

I also hope Philip gets it together soon before he wastes yet another career possibility.

Stephanie wrote: "[Mildred] is a puzzling character. I can't tell whether she is leading him on....I don't think so....or whether she is simply accepting of what he gives her. "

That's an excellent question. It seems to me that most of the time he's offering, she isn't asking. But is it right for her to take from a person when she knows the interest is so one-sided?

Everyman wrote: "That's an excellent question. It seems to me that most of the time he's offering, she isn't asking. But is it right for her to take from a person when she knows the interest is so one-sided?..."

I don't think Mildred is capable of thinking beyond her own needs. I think she accepts whatever comes her way as befitting... the tunnel vision of the self-centered.

Janice George (JG) wrote: "I don't think Mildred is capable of thinking beyond her own needs."

Or is she is, we certainly haven't seen it yet.

To me Mildred isn't puzzling, she's just a type of girl who wants to rise higher in the society by catching a husband. Obviously, she would prefer somebody with a profession or money, but I'm afraid she would marry Philip and they would be unhappy for life.

I'm also frustrated with how little if at all Philip thinks about his future. I was excited at first when he chose medicine after the first two fiascos, but he's losing it again, with two exams failed and this obsession about Mildred. I was thinking that maybe he likes being unhappy and is punishing himself somehow, unconsciously wasting chances laid out before him. Just like with his aunt, he never acknowledged that he loved her when she was still alive and was sorry only after she died.

Teanka wrote: "I was thinking that maybe he likes being unhappy and is punishing himself somehow, unconsciously wasting chances laid out before him."

Isn't there a psychological condition centered around self-destructive behavior?

I actually found the scene with Foinet to be extreme mature development on Philip's part. He's terrified of what the man will say, but he wants to know the truth, doesn't want to deceive himself, as Fanny did. I was rather shocked that Foinet took the time to go to Philip's apartment and honestly assess his work. I think that he recognized that Philip was honestly asking and would be willing to receive whatever criticism came, and respectfully; unlike Fanny who claimed she wanted honest opinions, but lashed out at anyone who said negative things. I think that's why Foinet was so harsh to her: he knew she wouldn't accept his opinions anyway, so was very brutal to her. He is much more respectful with Philip, gives the honest opinion he's asked for, and goes a step further, advising Philip to go out and try to find something he really DOES like, while he is still young enough and in position enough to do so.

I also thought he showed remarkable maturity in his conversations with his uncle when back in England. "At all events, you will do me the justice to acknowledge that I was justified in my opposition when you made up your mind to become an art student." "I don't know so much about that. I daresay one profits more by the mistakes one makes off one's own bat than by doing the right thing on somebody's else's advice. I've had my fling, and I don't mind settling down now."

I heartily agree with this assessment. If Philip hadn't gone on his own volition to try it, he would have always wondered. And now he's tried it, seen its pitfalls, and knows for sure it's not the life he wants. Now he can accept, even joyfully, the idea of being a doctor, something he simply could not have settled down to do before. As he later points out to his uncle, he does not view these years in Paris as wasted, but rather as valuable learning experiences. He even sees the countryside of England as more beautiful than when he left; he sees beauty in the colors, the beautiful simplicity of the landscape.

"Philip wanted to find out how he ought to behave, and he thought he could prevent himself from being influenced by the opinions that surrounded him. [Yeah, we'll see about that!] But meanwhile he had to go on living, and, until he formed a theory of conduct, he made himself a provisional rule. 'Follow your inclinations with due regard to the policeman on the corner.'" Boy, isn't that a true statement!

Regarding Mildred, what a mess! At first, I had rather high hopes for the relationship. She seemed just rather coy and fun, and probably a good match for him. The business of jilting him when a better prospect came along was rather despicable, I must say. Although, part of me was glad he was finally getting a taste of some of his own treatment of women in his past. He is even mature enough to reflect on this: "His mind went back to the past. He wondered whether Emily Wilkinson and Fanny Price had endured on his account anything like the torment that he suffered now. He felt a pang of remorse. '"I didn't know then what it was like,' he said to himself." Granted, he seems to be excusing himself, but at least he THOUGHT about it, recognized it.

I like some of the honesty that Mildred shows. She outright tells him that he's ridiculously easily offended, and she's right! I think some of that honesty is part of what draws him to her. And once she's honest that she's seeing other men, will not be exclusive, what he does with her after that is kind of up to him and his own fault. She treats him horribly though, leading him on to a degree (even though she makes it clear she has no particular regard for him, but rather uses him to get her entertainment for free). But his reactions are what's frightening to me. He can either take what she says and completely leave her, or he can respect her decision and not be jealous of the other men. But he remains obsessed and "hated, despised and loved her." Um, NOT a healthy relationship! Definitely concerned about where this will all end up going.

Alana wrote: " I actually found the scene with Foinet to be extreme mature development on Philip's part. He's terrified of what the man will say, but he wants to know the truth, doesn't want to deceive himself, as Fanny did.

I agree, his actions to me speak of a mature assessment of his own skills based from someone who has the ability and the impartiality to tell him the truth. Of course he's going to have that feeling of 'I wish I hadn't done it' when it comes to the moment of truth, that's only human, but he goes through with it, and accepts the verdict with dignity.


I also thought he showed remarkable maturity in his conversations with his uncle when back in England. "At all events, you will do me the justice to acknowledge that I was justified in my opposition when you made up your mind to become an art student." "I don't know so much about that. I daresay one profits more by the mistakes one makes off one's own bat than by doing the right thing on somebody's else's advice. I've had my fling, and I don't mind settling down now."

I heartily agree with this assessment. If Philip hadn't gone on his own volition to try it, he would have always wondered. And now he's tried it, seen its pitfalls, and knows for sure it's not the life he wants. Now he can accept, even joyfully, the idea of being a doctor, something he simply could not have settled down to do before.

I agree with this as well. His time in Paris was not wasted time, he matured as a person and has gained depth as a person. Even though it cost him more money than he can really afford he lived fairly much independently for the first time in his life and as anyone knows who moves out and flats for the first time, that's a big step.

As well as living alone and his first forays into art where he mostly, tbh, just parrots what he's told, his relationship with Fanny Price and her suicide also grows him emotionally. He acts both responsibly and compassionately. His annoyance at her brother but his assessment that it wasn't worth clashing with him shows great restraint, and a sort of dry humour which I found promising.

Everyman wrote: "We're back in London, where Philip has decided on yet another career attempt, this time following his father into medicine. We get a preliminary look at medical school in the 1890s (when my grandf..."

I'm curious what people think about this relationship. Does it ring true? Is this how a person of Philip's character would actually have behaved?
Oh my, you really picked a book most fitting for the theme...Emotionally Gut Wrenching" it truly is!

I find Philip behavior in his relationships to be true of his character. He was inconsistently loved as a child; his mother loved him, but she dies; he then moves to his uncle's house, where he isn't nurtured in the very best way either aside from his cautious and adoring aunt...Who also dies. Anybody who has ever genuinely showered Philip with love doesn't seem to stick around. From what I understand, when children experience this at a young age, they grow up to be very insecure because they lack this crucial component in building a secure emotional foundation. Emotional insecurity can trigger so many other (negative?) facets to the maturing psyche of a child and I see this in Philip. He has a very defensive nature which alienates him from most of his peers because who wants to be around that kind of person? Then there is his depression which stems from his alienation habit, as I am constantly reminded of how "alone" Philip is in these pages; and finally depression breeds his anger which I attribute to his cruelty, his wanting to torment people ...He does this, I think, to show how much pain he is in internally? For such an eloquent and well-spoken individual, what an ass backwards approach to communicating, Philip! SMH!

The relationship between Philip and Mildrid is not ideal, but I do find it to ring true taking into consideration who I think Philip is. Mildrid, I'm probably the only one, but I like her in the narrative at this point as she has the ability to really zing Philip's zang. If it wasn't for her addition into the narrative, I wouldn't be as inclined to read at a steady pace for Philip weighs too heavy on my heart, and I can't deal with his psyche for long periods of time.

Mildred is who she is, she wants to better her circumstances, as Teanka mentioned; but until she finds what she's looking for, Philip's courting her doesn't hurt anybody except for Philip who can't seem to take "no" for an answer. I don't resent Mildrid for being completely honest with Philip about how she could take him or leave him..."It makes no difference" to her. Philip does not bring out the best in Mildred, but then again, who does he bring about something good in? It's not love, it's a consuming passion...It's lust, therefore, superficial. He only wants to inevitably hurt her-He's a sadist, good lord, he's just as much a masochist as well! He completely lacks any respect for Mildred, but worst of all, he does not have any self-respect for himself. It doesn't look very fruitful for a healthy relationship, but definitely some good reading!

I have gone through phases with Philip, as I'm guessing may be the point. I loved him as a child and championed behind him in having a happy childhood; this continued into his early adolescence, but quickly waned with his growing manipulative nature while knowing where it stems from...His insecurity, his inability to accept proper adoration or love because he knows it will not last. He wants to flourish amongst friends, family and lovers...Only to ultimately push them away before they would him?

Really excellent commentary, Ami. You've really given Phillip's motivations a great deal of thought.

Renee wrote: "Really excellent commentary, Ami. You've really given Phillip's motivations a great deal of thought."

You think so, Renee? I've sat with these thoughts on my mind for quite a while trying to get in here to post them. I've cast a cloud on Philip's character, I understand, but I also feel a figment of hope for him. He is trying to convey his grief no matter how sordid in manner it may seem...I think he wants to be coddled, nurtured and protected. Philip seems to crave the presence of a sympathizing female and other than his mother, whom he hardly knew, he has not achieved this?

Ami wrote: " Anybody who has ever genuinely showered Philip with love doesn't seem to stick around. From what I understand, when children experience this at a young age, they grow up to be very insecure because they lack this crucial component in building a secure emotional foundation."

Excellent point. And interesting that even without all the modern research into this issue, Maugham apparently understood it quite clearly.

Ami wrote: "I think he wants to be coddled, nurtured and protected. Philip seems to crave the presence of sympathizing female and other than his mother, who he hardly knew, he has not achieved this? ."

Is this what his relationship with Miss W is all about?

Everyman wrote: "Ami wrote: "I think he wants to be coddled, nurtured and protected. Philip seems to crave the presence of sympathizing female and other than his mother, who he hardly knew, he has not achieved this..."

Everyman, Miss. W. fulfills the position of "nurturer/sympathizer; but I think he was just being a typical nineteen year old boy with her...Experimenting? One thing that sets her apart from Mildred, with whom he "craves" this attention and does not receive, is that he doesn't pursue Miss W., she pursues him. (Do not open this if you have not read the next section) (view spoiler)[This happens again with Nora in the next section (hide spoiler)]. I think whether he chases, or is being chased, makes a difference with whom he accepts and denies the desired affections; it also speaks to his juvenile tendencies and arrogance towards these women because he's being very petty...Is he not?

It's interesting because the women with whom Philip has a tendency to deny, are the one's who reflect the image he creates for himself in his interactions with Mildred...The yearning, the pleading, pledging love for the other, knowing it will not be reciprocated, the denial of the reality-It's wretched. Philip is lost and stuck somewhere in between reality and fantasy...He sits at the intersection of hopeful and delusional.

I haven't yet read all these comments but what I have read deals with the Philip-Miss Wilkinson and Philip-Mildred relationships very thoroughly. What I have to add is really redundant. Therefore, I concur with all of these insights. Philip is obsessed with Mildred, but were he once to catch her I think that his interest would soon diminish and that very quickly. They are broken characters in their own ways. I think that Mildred secretly admires this medical student, but that in itself is enough for her to treat him badly. His 'success' underlines her lack of it. The social climber in her is ready to put up with him as he adds a certain sense of self-worth to her while at the same time undermining her, I think.

As for Miss W, Philip did not need to make any of the running so she lost any mystique, that she had initially, very quickly. Immaturity is a big stumbling block for Philip. I'm not sure how he will ever learn.

Philip's obsession isn’t really about Mildred. If she has any intuition at all, she must know that. She must know that Philip, despite his declarations, has no real respect for her. Of course she refuses his marriage proposal. He doesn’t love her and doesn’t have much else to offer her.

The obsession is a manifestation of Philip's insecurity, loneliness, and lack of focus in life. Mildred has very many flaws and is from a lower class, so she should be obtainable. His ego is crushed when he’s unable to attract her. He wants to obtain her to validate himself.