The Sword and Laser discussion

In Orientalism, Edward Said forwarded one of the central tenets of post-colonial literary theory: that Western culture views the East in a manner which is both exotic and commodified. Presented as a place of mystery, but without much effort made to really understand that mystery on an empathic level, orientalism is the tendency of Western culture, authors, and readers to reduce Eastern culture to a kind of rubber-stamp for "exotically foreign." The problem, according to Said, is that this doesn't prompt Western audiences to really understand the East. On the contrary, it encourages them to view it as so alien that it becomes okay to conquer, buy, sexualize, and otherwise exploit.

Some of the discussion in other threads, particularly by those with some background in Chinese history, has accused Bridge of Birds of this kind of pandering, stereotyping treatment of its Chinese subject matter. That's particularly interesting given that one of the reasons this book was first discussed, some while ago, was that the group was looking for a non-Western fantasy for a Sword pick.

What about it? Is this book an encouragement to explore a new cultural matrix and how it interacts with the fantasy genre? Or is it the literary equivalent of Mickey Rooney's blatantly racist "Miss Gorightry! I protest" in Breakfast at Tiffany's?

I thought of Said quite a bit when I read this, especially the sexualizing of the other, but I would not say it is stereotypical in most other respects.

The author is emulating a particular genre in pre 1911 (fall of the last dynasty to rule China) and does it well. Most of the irony, whimsey, and humor fit right into it.

Other than that, the Chinese feel of it, to me seems pretty surface level. Again, Guy Gavriel Kay does that better capturing the feel of the same place and time in Under Heaven.

Not everyone will have that reaction, and that is fine. I am curious though, what seemed "Chinese" to you about the book beyond the proper nouns? There is no right answer. I am just would like to hear what people say.

BTW If I had one chinese Genre that would be a good graft onto fantasy, it would be Wu Xia I have yet to find something in fantasy thst captures the feel of it, but I have no read many that try.

On the whole I don't think it's as bad as, say, The Windup Girl, but there are enough questionable elements that I'm tempted to suggest the book to Requires Only That You Hate. Beyond the sexist elements, what I found most groan-worthy were the literally "translated" names. Now granted many of them were nicknames so it makes sense to render them in English, but awkward phrasings like "Number Ten Ox" are just neon signs saying, "Ooo, isn't this exotic?" Then you have the silliness of saying "The August Jade Emperor" instead of "Yu Huang" -- yes, technically it's a title instead of a name, but so are "Christ" and "Buddha" and we don't render those in English. By way of comparison, books on Japanese mythology use "Amaterasu" instead of "The August God Who Shines in Heaven."

P. Aaron wrote: "That's particularly interesting given that one of the reasons this book was first discussed, some while ago, was that the group was looking for a non-Western fantasy for a Sword pick."

No, what's interesting is that when we go looking for "non-Western fantasy," we turn to a white guy born and raised in the USA who happened to write some books about his conception of a non-Western culture.

I have seen translations of Daoist texts that do just what he did with names. In translating them you get a flavor of what Chinese see when they see names. My son's middle name means Cyprus tree, which eludes to a passage in the Analects. I think about it sometimes when I say it. I just wish he would of done it completely one way or another.

I don't know if anyone else does this, but when I see the names; Johnson, Smithson, Fletcher, or Flanders, I see patronymics, ancestral trades, or religious ancestry.

I think in a lot of ways Said's "lenses" don't simply apply to the Orient, but to how Western society dealt with other cultures in general. I'm reminded of similar problems with early accounts of the New World. There were many accounts of the "free women," and "barbarous, yet grand" courts of South America. Of course, by the 16th century, we'd mostly gotten over that.

Then there's the very real fact that China, Japan, and South East Asia are all very different from our culture. Their basic outlook on sex, gender roles, religion and individual rights are jarring to the average Westerner. I'm speaking broadly of course, there are commonalities, but that only highlights the differences.

Russia, the Americas, and numerous small scale societies absorbed western culture with our technology, Asia took industrialization, and was changed by it, but in ways no western society would have.

Though I still take Said's point that we shouldn't treat the Orient as one giant block of mystery, rugs, and spices; but as the group of unique and diverse culture groups that they are, each with their own difference and views.

That said, I lemmed this book four chapters in. The names were a problem, but mostly I just kept waiting for the Taoist meditation questions that never came.

Chinese authors themselves sometimes use these same stereotypes in their writing, especially to establish elements such as the "ridiculous leader" or the "corrupt rich person." It made me think of Mo Yan, whom I read recently after he won the Nobel Prize in literature. It always felt like he was writing with a nod and a wink, because he needed some of that ridiculousness, some of that suspension of disbelief, to tell his story. And in a fable/myth/quest, we need even more of that. So I dunno, it didn't bother me.

No, what's interesting is that when we go looking for "non-Western fantasy," we turn to a white guy born and raised in the USA who happened to write some books about his conception of a non-Western culture.


I was one of the folks asking for non-Western fantasy. I was a little surprised at this choice. I wasn't expecting a book written by an American who lived and worked in China and now lives in the state next door. Bridge of Birds wasn't a bad choice. I enjoyed the read, but I think I still want something more.

More than anything else, this book reminds me of two series of mystery novels that I read years ago; the Judge Dee mysteries by Robert van Gulik, and the Yellowthread Street mysteries by William Marshall. Van Gulik's detective novels are set in ancient China and are told in a similar narrative style. Marshall's books are police procedurals set in Hong Kong before it reverted to the PRC, which have elements of the bizarre and absurd woven into the stories.

It seems that most, if not all, the fiction set in China that I've read, is written by Westerners. Since I don't speak or read Chinese, I guess I don't have much choice in the matter. Are there translations of Chinese fantasy or science fiction available? I'm not even sure that's what I really want. I probably won't know until I read it.

Jenny wrote: "Chinese authors themselves sometimes use these same stereotypes in their writing, especially to establish elements such as the "ridiculous leader" or the "corrupt rich person." It made me think of..."

True, but there is a difference between a member of a culture using stereotypes as shorthand for elements of his society that he fully understands, and an outsider appropriating those stereotypes because he thinks they're cool.

Mark wrote: "More than anything else, this book reminds me of two series of mystery novels that I read years ago; the Judge Dee mysteries by Robert van Gulik, and the Yellowthread Street mysteries by William Marshall. Van Gulik's detective novels are set in ancient China and are told in a similar narrative style. Marshall's books are police procedurals set in Hong Kong before it reverted to the PRC, which have elements of the bizarre and absurd woven into the stories."

There are the Inspector Chen novels by Qiu Xiaolong, who grew up in Shanghai but moved to the US after Tienanmen Square. But on the whole, Chinese genre fiction is pretty rare in translation unless you want to go with the classics like Romance of the Three Kingdoms and The Water Margin. The only Chinese SF I'm aware of are short stories that appeared in The Apex Book of World SF and MIT's Technology Review science fiction edition.

There are, however, tons of Japanese SF, fantasy and mystery novels that have been translated into English -- Vertical, Haika Soru and Kurodahan being publishers that specialize in nothing but Japanese literature.

Sean wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Chinese authors themselves sometimes use these same stereotypes in their writing, especially to establish elements such as the "ridiculous leader" or the "corrupt rich person." It made me think of..."

True, but there is a difference between a member of a culture using stereotypes as shorthand for elements of his society that he fully understands, and an outsider appropriating those stereotypes because he thinks they're cool."

I'll give you that, except I do believe the author wants us to forget he isn't Chinese, as if this is just another folk tale.

I wish more Chinese lit was translated into English. I'm hoping the Mo Yan trend will continue, although he may not be the best example since he's criticized as writing the company line at times.

Sean wrote: "Chinese genre fiction is pretty rare in translation unless you want to go with the classics like Romance of the Three Kingdoms and The Water Margi..."

It is mostly because the Chinese Fantasy equivants are hard to translate and have their own sets of genre conventions that you have to adapt to.

Wu Xia is particularly problematic in these areas. Pillars of the genre, like Jin Yong (a Grandmaster of the genre) have less than a handful of English translations.

They do tend to translate well visually though, so if you can get the Engish subbed dvd's, they are a real treat. I believe you can get some via netflix on disk.

Open Book on BBC Radio recently did podcast about Chinese authors. Mo Yan was discussed, of course, but also several other authors. Not as much in the way of genre fiction, sadly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01pz59k

The biggest problem with getting genres like Wuxia into English markets is the bias that publishers have against genre fiction in general. The type of publishers that might have the resources to secure the rights and translators are the types of houses that disdain all but "literary" fare.

Personally I'd love to see, and buy, a handsome set of the works of Jin Yong. It would be great if Tor got into the translation business. While not specifically sf or f, I think there would be a great overlap in readership.

I'm going to follow up on some of the recommendations here. Thanks.

I also ran across this Goodreads list of fantasy with a Chinese or Japanese setting at http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/30...

Yeah, I'm not sure if was the ghost of Said, or just the stylized writing, but I was immediately turned off by Bridge of Birds. I know I should have given it longer, but I just couldn't stomach it - and I'd have a hard time recommending it to other China scholars for similar reasons.

It simultaneously seemed too contrived and yet contradictory not fantastical enough, at least in the first 50 pages. I know, I should have given it longer, but I keep my Sword reading on a very tight leash and this didn't make the cut.

What a lot of great contemporary Chinese works of fiction do really well, however is what the Nobel board described (in their statement wrt Mo Yan) as "hallucinatory realism", a uniquely Chinese take on the "magic realism" of latin america. Mo Yan, Yu Hua, Su Tong are the big trio of names that come to mind, and all three write great short stories as well which translates well for weird and wacky stories filled with visceral language, grotesque violence, and the like.

Yu Hua is probably my favourite, at least for shorter works. "One Kind of Reality" ( 現實一種) is great (although characteristically depressing). The collection The Past and the Punishments would be a good place to start IMO, rather than his novels.

For some great non0Western fantasy check out:

Samit Basu he wrote a great series that begins with The Manticore's Secret.

Lauren Beukes wrote Zoo City. Yes, she is white but she's from South Africa- so definitely not the same type of "Western" we're used to here in the US.

Great angle to approach this topic from, Aaron.

Jenny wrote: I'll give you that, except I do believe the author wants us to forget he isn't Chinese, as if this is just another folk tale.

I think you've hit the crux of the issue here. Edward Said laid out a lot of great examples in his essay of how Westerners became "experts" on the Orient (despite the fact that the historians of countries like China, India, and Egypt wouldn't even grant themselves that title) and went so far as to try to teach the native peoples their own culture which they had grossly oversimplified. A white dude from the midwest saying "don't worry about it, I'm just writing your average Chinese myth" can be a very dangerous thing. It ties into the question of who has the authority to write what. A major problem is that Westerners have a bad habit of privileging the study of an experience rather than actual living of an experience, thus enabling an outsider to "know" the Chinese experience better than the Chinese do. I don't think Hughart was disrespectful with his subject matter, and we certainly don't need to be disrespectful of his attempt to faithfully recreate it, but we can certainly call into question just how authentic an attempt it has the potential to be; not to mention, as Sean noted, why our first instinct upon looking for Eastern fantasy is to lock onto an outsider's view of China.

Interestingly, the other book I recall being tossed around a lot in that non-western fantasy novel thread was Throne of the Crescent Moon...which is by a guy from Michigan.

P. Aaron wrote: "Interestingly, the other book I recall being tossed around a lot in that non-western fantasy novel thread was Throne of the Crescent Moon...which is by a guy from Michigan."

A guy named Saladin Ahmed.

Which begs the question; if someone who grew up in Chinatown (any of them) writes a story from an Eastern perspective, using familiar tropes, in English, without ever having been anywhere near that culture area, can it still be said to suffer the bias of Orientalism?

Ever try reading a Wu Xia novel? Remember the Western audience's reaction to the first fight scene in Croaching Tiger... when they took to the treetops? Giggles. It's so normalized though if you grew up with it ... which indeed you could growing up in an overseas Chinese community around the world with ready access to Chinese graphic novels comics, Hong Kong cinema, etc.

Quentin Tarininto has made a career of distilling B-Movie Chic, which in its day certainly riffed off a deep tradition of Orientializing Asian culture (and simutanously mocking it with all the ridiculous dubbing back in the day).

Thing is, while you might take offence to QT's cinematic aesthetics, no one can deny he knows his B-movie legacy that he has sworn to revere through his work. He might use a whole wack of orientialist tropes in the Kill Bill films, but most viewers simply caulk it up as part of the over-the-top nature of his films that use these cultural tropes as a launching pad for his plots. It's all a vehicle for showing off some witty dialogue & stylized ultaviolence.

So... the question I have for those who have read more than my 50 pages, what is the Bridge of Birds primary motivation as a book, a fantastical take of ancient/medevial China, or a fantastical world unique on its own that just happens to imploy some classic tropes from Chinese WuXia mythology? The problem of the fictional "uncanny valley" or the "narcassism of minor differences" becomes more acute with Fantasy based in part of an imagined past. . It's why for me alternate history/urban fantasy has to be sufficiently weird for me to accept the universe as is. (Loved The Rook for that - cross Harry Potter with the X-men and you reach the sufficiently weird mark.) Classic old Wu Xia is already pretty weird, and was written and told to be at least half-believed. There's oodles of weird old Daoist / Buddhist folk tales thats pretty compelling. Combining it all together in a convincing way is definitely a challenge.

why our first instinct upon looking for Eastern fantasy is to lock onto an outsider's view of China.

Perhaps a lack of translated works that would fit as a sword pick would explain it? I see people are long on Chinese authors and short on actual novel length works that would work.

Plus, fantasy, as a genre, is a Western construct and has had less success than, say Literary Fiction, or even SciFi in transcending places of strong Western Influence. Is it any wonder that within the genre it would be the West reaching for the other rather than the other way around? As brought up above, there are native genres that have overlap with fantasy, but those often lack a representation accessible to a book club like this.

I think the author combined elements from Chinese literature (WuXia) and western fantasy in a way which, for me, was ultimately unsatisfying. I felt this book was Chinese fantasy light or Chinese fantasy for westerners, although I don't feel it was orientalist in the way Said describes. I believe the authors intentions are good and that the book is intended to bridge the gap between Chinese and western literary traditions and encourage more westerners to read Chinese literature, but for me it just felt really inauthentic.

The best specific example I can give of why I felt this way is probably the main character, Number Ten Ox. He has many characteristics common in main characters from both traditions, a young male, from unlikely circumstances who must undertake a quest. He is capable of this quest through innate physical strength and a pure incorruptible heart. He is loyal, courageous, truthful, uninterested in wealth or personal gain etc. Unfortunately, this resulted in a very two dimensional character with almost no room for personal growth. Number Ten Ox succeeded in embodying all the qualities that make western and Chinese, male protagonists lovable and none of the ones that make them interesting.

That is how I feel about the whole book, the author took elements of whimsy, humor, and divinity from Chinese literature and put them on a plot line digestible for western readers creating something that was enjoyable, but unsatisfying.

Panamajack wrote: "Ever try reading a Wu Xia novel?

I'd love recommendations -- the closest I've come was Three Kingdoms several years ago, which was pretty thick going. I've watched more than my share of the movies, though.

See when i see a novel like this i find that at the very least it might provide proof of market for Chinese fantasy even if it is Chinese fantasy lite. I have faith enough that if there is a demand for Chinese or eastern fantasy someone will want to make money off that demand.

I'm working on adapting Bridge of Birds into a feature film. This discussion is exactly what we need to consider in our early stages. I know I'm coming to this list late to the part, but if any of you are interesting in discussing I'd be very grateful. You had a lot of really pertinent things to say. Cheers

Sean wrote: "On the whole I don't think it's as bad as, say, The Windup Girl, but there are enough questionable elements that I'm tempted to suggest the book to Requires Only That You Hate. Beyond the sexist el..."

I am about halfway through TWG and rather than read the second essay, I went back to the first one. I think I may just read both essays and chuck TWG into the virtual trash. Author SO had me at "gap-year backpacker scum". I actually wondered whether something like this existed when I recognized rambutan for what it was long before the character did.

Daran wrote: "I don't know if anyone else does this, but when I see the names; Johnson, Smithson, Fletcher, or Flanders, I see patronymics, ancestral trades, or religious ancestry.

I think in a lot of ways Said..."

Too few people have read Said. I need to read that one in particular again.