Women and Men discussion

I don't know much about this project. Something tells me it's ginormous, but I've no reason to think so. ebr published an excerpt back in 2004: http://www.electronicbookreview.com/t...

Water? I love everything about water!

Ha! There's a reason why we paired up, Jonathan.

Joe's website lists the Water manuscript as "completed." How long to wait for word of a pub date? http://www.josephmcelroy.com/

Joe reviews Joy Williams' Ill Nature in The Nation, 2001 :: http://www.thenation.com/article/eart...

An excerpt/chapter, Wetland Reflections, at New England Review :: http://www.nereview.com/vol-34-no-1-2...

Joe's appearance at MOMA earlier this month, video ::

http://www.momaps1.org/expo1/event/jo...

The water book should be completed by the end of this year. Publication for 2014?

And a bit more. Much of this courtesy of bibliomanic ::
http://bibliomanic.com/tag/joseph-mce...

Water on Us from 2010 @ ebr ::
http://www.electronicbookreview.com/t...

If It Could Be Wrapped from 2004 @ ebr ::
http://www.electronicbookreview.com/t...

Thanks, Nathan, for the info.

Joseph McElroy's articles on water:
Water Work
Wetland Reflections
Water on Us

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Joe reviews Joy Williams' Ill Nature in The Nation, 2001 :: http://www.thenation.com/article/eart..."

Bumping this due to Jonathan's reminder. Here's a prettier link, too ::
http://www.thenation.com/authors/jose...

Have you guys seen the photo of this Water book? It just might stand up to RURD. Which is appropriate.
https://twitter.com/watrwake

Can we stop for a moment to appreciate how good he looks in this photo? I wouldn't cross out the possibility of another 20–30 years of publication, personally.

Yeah - it seems like his instagram and twitter feeds post the same pics, which is helpful for those of us hungry for any info!

There is that and Voir Dire in particular from Joe that I am really keeping my finger's crossed gets published.

And yes, Sofia, the fact he looks in such good shape certainly keeps me hopeful there is more to come...

I feared I might've made a faux pas, but he really does look great. Here's to this inspiring similarly highly regarded authors to publish works on the other elements. I'm especially pumped for void, no, wait, Iridium.

Here are Joe's projects in medias res that I'm aware of: Voir Dire (been cooking since the '90s), a novel he's been working on since 1948-9, before he even began A Smuggler's Bible, a novella of vague conception, the Water book. I'm to understand Voir Dire is the furthest from completion. He's mentioned that print/ebook Women & Men to come from Dzanc this year, but we know how that's panned out.

as I know:
+ Fathers Untold (a novel begun in 1948 about California);
+ children's book The Island;
+ a book of poems;
+ a screenplay about Manhattan family.

Corrupting the youth, eh?

Sofia wrote: "Corrupting the youth, eh?"
exactly :)

"Easter Island. Seas ever leveling. Planet imagination rising. Water Book final section. pic.twitter.com/Igt4oC2OBy"

Love that second picture of him with his red trainers and white hat.

Nathan "N.R." wrote: ""Easter Island. Seas ever leveling. Planet imagination rising. Water Book final section. pic.twitter.com/Igt4oC2OBy""

Haha. I thought I was the only one stalking Joe on twitter.

His son and I follow each other on instagram and he is on Easter island with Joe - posted some amazing video - such an incredible place - has been high on my list of dream places to visit since I was little

I've been checking periodically to see whether his water book hits the stand. Can't wait!

Joe's webpage has this down for 2018. But no publisher identified. We'll keep them fingers crossed.

Joe said that his water book is roughly 600 pages now and still growing.

Keeping my toes and eyes crossed, too.

Any news on the water book? I Googled Joseph McElroy water and this GR discussion showed up first.

Aloha wrote: "Any news on the water book? I Googled Joseph McElroy water and this GR discussion showed up first."

No news.

I was just reading an Interview called "In the Port of Possibility," and came across the following the rest might find interesting:

"That was about 1954 or 1955. I had plays and poems and the beginnings of novels, and I always had Fathers Untold which was begun in 1948 and which I have always believed in. I now have been writing it all my life. And it’s only a novel, that’s all, it’s not the summing up of anything. But I was writing it as early as eighteen, I think. And you can say I was unable to finish it, or you can say I was unwilling to finish it, or it wasn’t quite right or something like that. And when I look at what’s happened since Women and Men, there are a lot of other projects on the table. I guess I’ve written a lot. But the projects on the table are not finished books.

There’s one that I began when I was teaching at Queens College around 1989 or so, around the time that I published The Letter Left to Me. There’s a novel about a changeling and I set some store by that. But it’s not finished. And from the 1980s, when I and my wife, Barbara, a painter, spent a lot of time in New Mexico and I worked with a counter-culture farming group, I have two boxes full of manuscript for a book called Talavaya, which is a Hopi word for the time of day early in the morning when the Hopi farmer gets up and looks at the fields down in the valley below the mesas and says a prayer about the ground and the crops and so forth. That novel is going to get done some day, and it exists in considerable manuscript. But that’s an example of something that I embarked upon with passion. It still exists but I just haven’t finished it. Am I someone who doesn’t finish things? The nine novels that I have published, and I’d add to that two or three other books—essays and a novella—are not exactly the mark of somebody who doesn’t finish things. But I don’t feel that I’m like Paul Valéry and reluctant to yield up a manuscript to the publisher. I just think that when it isn’t right, you don’t declare it finished.

And there’s a lot of other stuff. There’s a screenplay that I now set considerable store by, which is of the last five years. That’s set in Manhattan, although it has an American desert source as well. There’s a libretto which I began with a German composer, and I decided I didn’t like his music enough. It’s very good, but it’s just not for me and it didn’t seem to suit the libretto that I had written. I think, now, down the line, Boone [McElroy’s adult son] is going to score it for me."

"No, I think it’s an important question, but I don’t feel really able to be more articulate about it than that. I think maybe the novels are articulate. What happens in this other novel—actually there are two—there’s Voir Dire, which is a big long one, which goes from 1991, but this other one that began in 1948 called Fathers Untold, I think it maybe gets into that neuronal chaos that one protects oneself from, but one also wants to enter and make use of somehow. We’ll see, I don’t know what the book will be like."

Has anyone mentioned this book in other posts? "Talavaya"?

P.S Here is something from The Ukrainian Week Interview - June 23rd, 2017.

"Do you contemplate any experiments in writing? Would you try new genres, methods or formats?

There is this text that I began in 1948. It is terribly important for me, and it is not finished. It is called «Fathers Untold».

Everything is an experiment when you write all the time: I want to finish a screenplay. And I also write poems quite a lot – partly because you can finish them quickly. I want to finish a stage play and have it performed. I’d like to have that experience, hearing my dialogues said by actors on stage. And maybe seeing people walk out. Or maybe not."

Never heard of "Talavaya" - have a stash of personal letters from the late 90s to the late 2000s and lots of mention of Voir Dire, which seemed imminent, and of course the book on water... Most interesting letter, as an aside, is one where he talks about a dream of buildings crashing all around him, dated 6 months or so before 9/11 (and McElroy living close to the epicentre).

You probably have the best collection ever, Lee. I am jealous. I did find a copy of the Review of Contemporary Fiction to add to my collection. But that's nothing compared to personal letters. May I ask how you came by those? I am still trying to locate the Storie 54 publication. I really wanted to read the excerpt from Voir Dire. I really do hope we get this novel.

I am always on the lookout for interesting material concerning novelists I like. It's always helpful if they entrust their personal effects to a University, College or even Library of Congress. This is how I came by some amazing never Published stories by Bernard Malamud, some stories and unfinished novels by Saul Bellow and a never before seen screenplay by William Gaddis.

I mention this because I feel like McElroy might entrust all his work to one of these facilities and in the end even if let's say this unfinished work "Talavaya" never sees the light of day in a proper publication and completed form we might still request it and study it through these educational havens. He already has a collection stored at Middlebury College, Vermont. Perhaps the rest will go that way as well.

P.S And indeed a very interesting and prophetic dream. I was reading the "The Unknown Kid" last night at that had a very interesting dream sequence. It was very well written, very descriptive but also so very weird. I often wondered if certain Novelists write their own diary entries, e-mails, letters with the same artistic flair or in a more relaxed approach not striving for the same peaks.

Came by the letters honestly - we corresponded for quite some time. Strangely that slowly died when e-mail became the thing. Perhaps it's not that strange though. Interest in McElroy began when I tired to read Lookout Cartridge and failed, returned it to the library but something stayed with me (a scene where people are watching a drive-in movie and the giant screen falls off into the ocean - landslide drive-in) and I went back again and it was a lesson in meeting the author on his terms. After that hunted down all his works, most of which - other than Plus - we're out of print, but there were remaindered W&M's everywhere...

His letters had the same flair/style. Just a lot shorter (many of which were on postcards).

Hey Lee,

That's fascinating. It's indeed very strange that the correspondence worked more actively in the more archaic form before we all switched over to electronic forms of communication. But nonetheless, its amazing you have those and they will always be a fond memory to look back on.

I had more or less the same experience with his work. I got the short story collection from the library, Night Soul and Other Stories and it took me forever to finish. I think of myself as a fairly decent speed reader and I haven't experienced a slowness like this before. But there it was. And I couldn't do anything about it. I fought myself and fought myself and eventually I gave up. But I was drawn back. There is just something about him, he is challanging, difficult but he can be navigated with enough time and understanding which comes from more reading of his work. I think there are some writers that can be a challange like Gaddis, DFW, Pynchon, Bernhard etc but none of them could hold a candle to McElroy but thats just my opinion. Except perhaps Vladimir Nabokov who will forever remain as my favorite novelist.

I am slowly collecting more of his work now. It's certainly an expensive past time but so rewarding in the end.

P.S I recall reading something about the e-mail from the Interview I quoted above yesterday. Here is the quote:

"There was a time fifteen years ago, maybe twenty years ago, when someone, a friend of mine, criticized me for long e-mails, for treating the e-mail like the old hand-written letter, or the typed letter. And I think it’s true that I do. I don’t know that that is really using too many words. I think what it is is being warmed by the e-mail. And since I’m someone a little bit paranoid who wants to go to the post office when he finishes a letter and mail it, although one doesn’t do that anymore except for bills, I feel gratified that I can send a substantial e-mail to you, or to my son, or to Robert Walsh, Marie Barrientos, Nick Pappas, a close circle of friends I depend on. For what? I wonder, but I do. Also my daughter, Hanna. And it goes right to them. Whether they read everything in it, I don’t know. E-mail and the Internet I know are not the same thing. But I think e-mail has been very comforting to me, as if I can speak to someone in written down words and I don’t have to wait for three days to imagine their receiving it. So I think that’s been good."

Yes, something about McElroy that's not there with other authors - a kind of mastery of something far below the surface, those concrete abstracts. I like that Night Soul was your introduction. After I wrote him in the late-90s, he responded by sending me a copy of Fathers and Sons, which had his story Night Soul. If I wasn't hooked as a fan already... He also hunted down my three obscure print publications and gave me feedback, unbidden. Tell me about Nabokov - love Lolita of course, and Pale Fire and Pnin and some of the stories. What 'gets' you?

Hey Lee,

That's such an awesome story. I honestly can't think of a better introduction. And certainly a very high compliment from Joe. I had no idea you wrote. I should have known. I am a writer myself but not published. I am self-publishing this year, a collection of short stories.

I think I knew around the age of 8/9 that I wanted to write. I have stories dating back that far if not farther even. I spent a large chunk of my life reading and watching great cinema. Finished film school for Directing. Only drawback is I think I spent a few too many years trying to write Screenplays ala Fitzgerald, Faulkner and now I have made it back to what I do best and going to give self-publishing a chance. Let's see how it goes.

I would love to sample your work. I am sure its easier to find than some of Joe's lol

With Nabokov, I find him to be masterly. Someone who has a complete grip on the language, subject matter, storyline, etc He excels at what he does. I started by reading Transparent Things and not liking it and then going back to him by reading Pnin and loving every page of it. Then I believe I read The Defense, Despair, and Invitation to a Beheading almost back to back. I don't often have this with most authors I like. But certain ones like Don Delillo, for example, I have read 2-3 of his books back to back. Certain authors just grip you and don't let go.

Ironically enough I haven't read Lolita yet. I was saving it. I did read The Enchanter which was an early draft of Lolita. Nowadays I try a bit harder to pace mysef once I know I really like someone. To savor their work. Otherwise, it will all be gone before you know it. And while I like at least 30 authors I could easily name right now, it's not always the same. Everyone has their absolute favorites and while there will be other authors, and other books and perhaps even additions to that favorites list I still try my best to slow down. Recently Thomas Bernhard made my list but I cannot even imagine reading a few of his books back to back... the man just exhausts you. A great writer, a bleak comedian, etc but you cannot read too much of his work in a short amount of time.

I do own all of Nabokov's work. Same with Delillo. Try as I might they will all get read within the next ten years or less lol I noticed we enjoy most of the same authors. I am still 50-50 on Pynchon but let's see. I own at least 4-5 of his books and while I loved The Crying of Lot 49 I also hated Bleeding Edge finding it to be very tedious.

Lee wrote: "Came by the letters honestly - we corresponded for quite some time. Strangely that slowly died when e-mail became the thing. Perhaps it's not that strange though. Interest in McElroy began when I t..."

Very cool to hear about this, Lee. I've been trying to get in contact with McElroy for an interview in The Collidescope. Any tips?

Warmly,

George

George wrote: "Very cool to hear about this, Lee. I've been trying to get in contact with McElroy for an interview in The Collidescope. Any tips?

Hi, George! First suggestion would be the obvious, which I'm sure you tried - his contact page at his website (but who knows who monitors that). Jeff Bursey - you published him in February - would have had more recent contact that I have had (interesting side-story: though Jeff and I lived only a 90 minutes apart, we were introduced to each other by McElroy, some ten years ago). Also, I do have an earthlink.net email address for JMc... PM me if you don't have that yourself.

Nick wrote: "Hey Lee,

That's such an awesome story. I honestly can't think of a better introduction. And certainly a very high compliment from Joe. I had no idea you wrote. I should have known. I am a writer m..."

Hey, Nick - A lot less stigma with self-publishing these days, or hybrid publishing. I work as an editor/book designer and most of my clients self publish and I've thought about self publishing a collection of some 15 thematically-related stories I've had in print since 2000.

Just added you as a 'friend' - thought we were already, and there are links on my profile page (for my fiction). One of my favourites is online though:

http://numerocinqmagazine.com/2016/01...

Still consider Gravity's Rainbow the ultimate reading experience, and Pynchon as 'favourite author' but Against the Day and Bleeding Edge remain unread. Same goes for much of McElroy's Cannonball. I read Ulysses in 5 days, Women and Men in 5 weeks, but those days of perfect readership with perfect insomnia are long gone, so short fiction is a little more my speed now.

Could never get into Bernhard, but always meant to try again. Love much of Delillo but nothing since the Body Artist (Underworld - unread in the 'no time yet for tomes' shelf).

Current favourite is Keith Ridgway, an Irish author.

When is your story collection likely to see light of day?

Lee wrote: "Nick wrote: "Hey Lee,

That's such an awesome story. I honestly can't think of a better introduction. And certainly a very high compliment from Joe. I had no idea you wrote. I should have known. I ..."

Hey Lee,

I have the utmost respect for Editors. It's something I never liked to do myself. I get into this whole Marcel Proust perfectionism already with every sentence, word, etc and then when I have to Edit it becomes so hard to not be tempted to alter and then edit that and repeat. It's a whole never-ending cycle with me.

This collection of Stories and One-Act Plays has already had one serious Edit. I am currently re-writing/shaping three stories from the collection and once that's done I need to send them off for another Edit. Then recheck everything after that and hopefully prepare the file for Amazon.

Due to the quarantine I have all the time now, I should be done hopefully in the next two weeks and can send the file for editing. I once read Cesar Aira (who while not my favorite Latin author is decent but of course he isn't Borges, Puig, Cortazar, etc) writes something like a page or few pages a day and never goes back to them to re-write or to edit. Must be nice lol I think I lack the discipline and patience that's required of professional Editors.

As far as reading goes, I recall reading a McElroy interview about that. The balance between reading and writing. Writers becoming readers of others. He doesn't seem to have an issue with finding the perfect balance it seems. I dip my toe into reading every day, I cannot say I write every day. A work in progress I guess.

With age too, it's also all becoming a bit harder. Reading after even 10 PM tires me out completely. My speed is decent right now but my dedication to sit there for numerous hours is waning a bit. Of course, it also depends on the author and my interest in the reading material. Give me a John Banville book and I might not even finish it. I am not a fan and yet I keep buying his books perhaps thinking one day my opinion might change. It's all these glorious reviews praising him to be the next Nabokov. Yet I never left a Nabokov book unfinished lol

But Ulysses and Women and Men to be read in the time you stated, is very very Impressive. Perhaps one day I can get to that speed.

I will add as a side note that The Body Artist might be the worst Delillo book ever. It's beyond tedious. Even Running Dog had more going for it and he wrote that one in mere months. I take him to be a perfectionist usually but I guess he just wanted to get that one out there between projects. A tedious novella though, The Body Artist, with only some redeeming things towards the end. I have the hard to find French film adaptation of it. I have yet to watch it Lol

Zero K and Cosmopolis were the last great Delillo which is pretty good I think. His legacy is very much intact. Some authors fall into mediocrity but he held on strong. Underworld is also unread but on my shelf waiting for the day. I had started it 3 years ago got through 100 or so pages and it was interesting. But between moving and other things, I put it down.

It's funny but I also prefer reading short stories nowadays. It's that completeness feeling and being happy it wrapped in time for you for that day. Once you have those 400+ books you know they will be carried over and over until you finally finish them. Although this year I promised myself to read more mammoth epics. Finally, get around to those books stealing the most about of bookshelf space. Underworld included lol

P.S I have added you. Let me read what you sent me and I will get back to you via PM.

Cheers

Lee wrote: "George wrote: "Very cool to hear about this, Lee. I've been trying to get in contact with McElroy for an interview in The Collidescope. Any tips?

Hi, George! First suggestion would be the obvious,..."

Just saw your comment, Lee. It's very much appreciated. And quite wonderful that Jeff is roped into this story too. Yes, I've only tried his FB page and the email on his website. Perhaps you can PM the other email you mentioned? I would be very thankful for it.

McElroy's 2013 lecture: https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/co...

Discussing and distinguishing the "project" from the book.

I believe that Nathan had linked to this talk years ago through MoMA but the site is no longer offering it. Triple Canopy archived the audio from the six presentations themed 'Overextending Ourselves.'

I really do hope that we'll see this book in the near future.

I don’t think we have a discussion thread for the “Her Place is There” chapter (255 in the new edition). This is the “shower-power” scene between Jim and Jean. Lots of insight into Joe’s thoughts on water, it’s ability to connect us, bring us together, that it is imperative and fundamental to our very existence. Ancient civilizations were centered upon proximity to water. Our earliest agricultural advancements directly linked to water. The greatest challenges awaiting modern civilization concern water. Aurelius said “Dig deep; the water—goodness—is down there. And as long as you keep digging, it will keep bubbling up.”