Green Building Geeks discussion

There are several I find fascinating, each for different reasons. I love the concept of cob for its simplicity, its natural nature, and the wonderful possibilities for design.

At various times I have considered yurts, sod homes, hay bale, adobe, and almost anything.

However I have decided upon underground, via the PSP method, in part due to the location, and in part due to the amazing efficiency, the unbelievable low cost, and the natural nature of the building both inside (mostly wood) and outside where it is almost invisible.

The design methodology allows for a great deal of light, cross ventilation, and views, which along with the considerations for drainage overcomes the problems of previous underground design methods which left the house either dark as a cave in some part, else subjected to near constant water leak issues..

The PSP method is also one that anyone can learn and use, much like cob in that respect. It does not require any special tools, nor any specialized building knowledge.

Perhaps the irony of all of this is that I have recently left behind a successful interior/exterior design and remodel business I built up over the last decade, largely based upon creating elegant homes, usually for modest homes. All of this was done on stick-built homes. So I could easily build a stick built home if I were so inclined, but I am much more interested in the alternative methods.

What about you? Also where in the process are you? (Finding land, planning & deign, building.. etc.)

When I left Austin last year, I had a plan which was to take me out of the country (in part to escape the depression I saw coming.. ) but as with all aspects of life things come up.. so changed plans mid-cross country tour on which I have been working on the homes of relatives and friends, and decided to go to my fall back location, that being in the Oachita mountains of Arkansas. So basically I am right next door to you. .:)

Those were some of the same reasons I was drawn to cob myself. I am still likely to use cob for the most open end of my home, and of course the rocket mass heater will be wrapped in cob, including as the base for my heated bed platform..

I am definitely with you on the garden aspect as well. There is little more amazing and rewarding than the entire garden process. I had just started using the double digging method found in both The Self Sufficient Gardener (a new edition is supposed to be coming out soon!) and How to Grow More Vegetables Than You Ever Thought Possible, to great success. The soil where I am is terrible, but I am hoping that in a couple of years I will have amended the soil enough with leave mold from the forest on the land, and of course compost created by me in the process of living..

I too am considering ducks.. mostly if not exclusively for eggs..

The site is on a ridge, overlooking some bottom land, a spring fed pond, and looking across to a mixed hardwood forest. I arrived here back in November, after leaving behind the home in Austin back in June. I have spent the time clearing the small site of the few small trees on the site (which will be used in the roof system) and harvesting fallen timbers, and snags (dead still standing trees). I want to try to build with as little impact on the world around me as possible.

If I can offer a bit of advice from someone who has worked on building new homes, and design, now including several designs of potential homes for myself, the most important thing you can do when you are building yourself, is to stage the process.. build as small a contained unit as you can, and add on over time. With cob that is fairly easy to do, unlike my own underground project! :) Still, I have some plans for possible areas of growth of the homestead..

Are you on flat land or hills? I only ask because cob lends itself nicely to combining with earth sheltered and underground homes as well, particularly on a hill side site. I have an open corner of the house (20+ feet of windows, door, and some wall) which I am still pondering the final finish of, contemplating cob, strawbale/cob, and simple timber-frame like the rest of the home.

I am hoping to add a bit of the whimsy of cob to my already somewhat whimsical "Hobbit house.. "

Just something to consider given the benefits in efficiency of U-homes..

Strange how just when you think you are walking along a path that no one else has every trod upon, you come across another on the same path, or one very near.. :)

I would love to have the help once I get to the point of doing the shoring, or any of the steps after that..So perhaps this summer or fall if that works with your schedule.. I will let you know when I get to the point where such work is possible. For now, I have to wait for some heavy equipment. Digging out in this very rocky was not something I looked forward to, and would have delayed building by perhaps 6 months or a year, so I have opted to hiring it done, but that is taking forever to get the guy out here.

Point being that even I am not making that much progress right now, other than harvesting the last of the timbers for the posts..

The curves and niches were one of the things that attracted me to cob as well. I suspect that I am going to build some cob structures not so much because I need them, but because I really want to do some cobbing.. Speaking of which, let me also make an offer to help once you get started.

I understand that feeling of getting away with something. That is sort of the same feeling I have.. That said, be ready for the resistance from others, it will be strong. I have been fighting family pressure, and pressure from most others to build a "normal" house, or barring that, building one which is more normal. The main argument you will hear is "what about resale?" My own thought is why on earth (or in earth!) would I build my own house to please others?

On starting small, when I first began designing homes for myself I began with a 400 sq ft foot print (with loft area for sleeping) and that has grown through changes in location and build method to double that size. All the while I have been fighting to keep it modest, but still I have given in on some aspects, including to some degree the size.

Point being surround yourself with us "weirdos" who support doing it your one way.. :)

Thanks for the book recommendation. I always love finding new books on gardening.

The first site I had chose, the one out of the country, was on the land of some dear friends who have a need for someone with my skill set (and shared beliefs in peace, privacy, and non-coercion in all things) Unfortunately some things came up to prevent me from using that site, so I have my fall back site, which is on the ranch of a relative. From that point, I chose land that was not being used (edge of a ridge) so as to not deprive the ranch of pasture for the cows. At that point it was simply a matter of choosing where on the ridge I would put it. The specific site I chose was based upon cutting down the fewest living trees, relatively easy to build on, view provided, and ease of access to water and electricity, though I am probably going to be off grid a decision I made after the siting of the house..

Cost is a major player for most of us, and certainly was for me. This is why I looked for cooperative situations where I could get a house site in barter for labor, knowledge, or some other aspect of my life which I have in more abundance than money. I have used cooperative living arrangements for most of the last decade and know that it can work very well.

One approach you might consider is looking for "junk land." That being land which is useless to others, this can include old quarries or sand/gravel pits, steep hillsides, or perhaps recently timbered land. Word of mouth may well be the best method since often folks do not think of selling such land figuring that no one would want it anyway..

Hope some of that helps..

I certainly understand the concern about finding like minded folks. That is one of the major drawbacks of my current location. The attitudes of most folks around here, whether "liberal" or "conservative" are far from what I would like to see (largely because of the intolerance from both camps..)

I perhaps have an advantage in that I really dislike cities, preferring wilderness. That said, it would be nice to be able to sit in the glow of the setting sun enjoying a drink with someone who is willing to explore ideas, accept peaceful coexistence, and appreciation of freedom..

Still for me it was more important to build this house if only to get through the very difficult times we are facing now and will suffer under for the next several years. Thought it will take me most of a year to build a home, I am doing it in such a way as to leave open the possibility of doing it again if the possibility to move to an ideal (or significantly better) location.

I am interested in building a cob house. I like the organic look it enables. I would like my future home to have the feel that I am being enfolded into my mother's arms. I am coming to believe that our homes should be an artistic extension of ourselves. I am also open to cordwood, for the same reason. There's a mosaic look to cordwood.

I'm sure we'll use cob, but as I said under another discussion, I don't know that we'll go exclusively cob. Strawbale has some appeal, particularly if we decide to go with a code-approved house. I've considered underground and earth-sheltered houses, as well as earthships. In any case, I think we need to find a piece of land before we decide. Much as permaculture depends on the particular features of the land, I feel like building decisions need to take such things into account as well. The more flexible we can be, the better.

Solo?! Yikes! I would be doing everything I could to get friends interested in alternative building! It's amazing what you can get friends to do for a good meal and some sociability, and cob's so labor intensive that I'd want to have as many building parties as possible. Besides being good for the do-it-yourselfers, cob is good for the never-done-this-before friends!

One good thing about cob workshops, over and above the experience, is the network of people you can build who may someday help you with your project (assuming you're willing to do the same for them!). Of course, the problem with that is that, since most of the cob workshops seem to be in Oregon, many of the attendees are on the west coast. Still, I bet when we get around to building, we'll get at least a few cobbers out to help us.

Over the course of 10 days or so, we did a lot of the building of a small two-room house, minus the foundation work (already done, though we did some work on the foundation for another building to get a feel for that) and the finish work (no time). Hopefully you can see what we did here: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=58244... I put that together to show it to non-cobbing friends, but it shows the progress we made. The experience was really good, though we were getting a little weary of the early morning cobbing every day (though I'm sure it's better than doing the same amount of cobbing later in the day!).

Definitely be willing to change methods to fit the site. My first plan was to build some form of cob/straw bale/timber fram, but then my plans changed when the site changed, so I opted for underground (PSP) timber frame.

With luck I will have a bit of help, but to be honest almost all of the work will be entirely solo. I have no friends in the area, and for various reasons do not want many folks locally to know that the house is there. (Not doing anything illegal, just do not like some of the activities which can go on locally)

So for me the trade off is time. I hope to have the house dug here in a month or so (been hoping this for a while.. so we will see) and then get it closed in before winter. If I can do that, then all of the detail work can be done over the winder..

Still all that said, I really want to build a cob structure, and will have an earthen oven if nothing else..

There were 15 workshop participants, plus more or less three instructors (2-3 were working at any given time) and one couple came partway through who had already been through the workshop. At most, then, we had 20 people working (plus, I should add, 2-3 people plus kids helping in the kitchen, keeping the cobbing machine fuelled).

We didn't plaster it, but I'm pretty sure the strawbale wall will take the earthen plaster as well as the cob wall. Now, building this way we dipped the bales in a clay slip to help integrate them into the wall. It definitely sped things up, though, and should be good to insulate that north wall somewhat.

Brian, are you documenting your building process photographically? I read The $50 and Up Underground House and was fascinated by the ideas there, so I'd be really interested to see them put into practice.

In any case, we're right there with you wanting to build an earthen oven! My best friend built one and there is no better way to cook pizza! I love baking bread, too, so it's a natural fit for us. While we were at the cob workshop, we picked up Kiko Denzer's Build Your Own Earth Oven and can't wait to build one.

I am indeed documenting it as best I can. I have to travel from time to time to work on the homes of others, but when I am on my homesite, I have been taking pics to show what I have been doing. So far that has amounted to clearing the site (as little as possible as I want to leave most of the trees) and collecting snags and fallen timbers to use to build with.

I figure that the earthen oven is a natural with underground construction, at least in warm climates. Combining that with Mike Oehler's BBQ window, I plan on doing virtually all of my cooking outdoors during the warmer months so as to keep the house as cool as possible naturally. In the winter I hope to be able to do some cooking on top of the Rocket Mass Heater I plan on building, this time both for the fun of it, and for the reduction in energy usage, primarily my own!

I head back to the site at the end of the week and hope to get the area dug this month. Then the real progress will begin...

I usually hear about cob, strawbale, or high-tech construction in connection with "green building." Is there something about stone or masonry construcation that is not environmentally friendly? Or is it just that they are too expensive to interest the diy crowd?

-a sucker for stone

Stone isn't completely out of the diy crowd's consciousness. One of the famous homesteading couples, Helen and Scott Nearing, were big advocates of building with stone, especially where there's a lot of stone present on the land.

I think the issue with stone comes from its thermal properties. Strawbale construction offers great insulative benefits, which stone obviously doesn't. Cob offers thermal mass, which both helps to keep a stable temperature and is good in combination with passive solar designs for collecting solar energy and releasing it as the air cools. If I'm not mistaken, stone does not have that benefit either, or at least not to the same extent.

Probably the biggest issue is the relative difficulty of stone. While most anyone can learn rudimentary masonry skills, it's more involved than cob. The work of gathering the stone, though, makes it very labor-intensive from the start, and lifting the stones into place is either hard work or energy intensive. Cob isn't so bad in this respect--the gathering of materials can be done in one fell swoop with a backhoe and it can be glommed onto the walls in whatever size one chooses.

I suppose the mortar might make it a bit less environmentally friendly as well.

Stone is actually an even better thermal mass than cob, as it is denser. For instance if you are building a rocket mass heater, putting stone around the exhaust venting is highly recommended as it will hold the heat longer than mere cob.

I am fully planning on incorporating stone into my own home, both as described above in the RMH, but also in the exposed areas (going to be an underground house..) where I will initially use some more traditional material, but built with adding stone later in mind.

In my own case, stone is VERY plentiful, with no cost involved at all. This alone is reason enough to use it. But Along with the additional thermal mass stone will provide, and the inherent aesthetic beauty of stone, as I will be using found stone, rather than cut stone, I will be able to incorporate stone into my home to help lessen the apparent distinction between house and environment. What I mean is that the house will blend into the surroundings even more than it will already being a U-house.

Now it is true that while stone is a great thermal mass, it does not excel as an insulator. But that is easily allowed for depending on the type of construction used. For instance in my own case, I will have an insulated wall existing before I add stone, so the stone will add some insulation, though admittedly little, to an area which is already sufficient. If you were to build the two wall method (inner and outer) then you could easily insulate between these. Or you could add stone to strawbale again reaping the rewards of both.