Indian Readers discussion

I've initiated this thread since I didn't see one on Sci-fi, especially dystopias, or, to be precise, cyberpunk.

Part reason is, I am beginning my Ph.D. on feminist cyberpunk, wishing to trace the growth of cyberpunk from its inception to its feminist leanings and environmental issues. There is another group (Sword and Laser) dedicated exclusively to sci-fi and fantasy, but there was only one Indian member there, so I have no idea what Indians read in this genre, whether they have done research in the field and whether cyberpunk has been explored as writing in Indian languages or by Indian authors writing in English.

There is no definite starting point for this thread, I'm just hoping to discuss anything about sci-fi, cyberpunk/dystopias in particular if possible, and ideally, feminist cyberpunk.

Discussion of movies too is appreciated.

All views are more than welcome. Thank you.

Will Neuromancer fall into this category? Dystopian readership is quite large in India I guess, but cyberpunk fans are pretty rare. Most of what I have seen in cyberpunk has come from anime/manga, haven't read much books.

The Mistborn series, you could say has a touch of cyberpunk mixed with fantasy maybe.

Any recommendations?

Neuromancer definitely is cyberpunk.

Neal Stephenson's 'Snow Crash' is psot-cyberpunk

'Islands in the Net'

are just a few examples of early masculinist cyberpunk prose

Laura Mixon‘s Proxies
Marge Piercy's 'He, She and It'
Lisa Mason's novels,
Kathleen Ann Goonan’s Queen City Jazz
Melissa Scott - Trouble and her Friends'
and Lyda Morehouse's novels
Edith Forbe's 'Exit to Reality'
are feminist and queer cyberpunk.

Joanna Russ' 'The Female Man' is also considered a classic, but I really didn't like it at all.

Is Snow Crash the one where the protagonist works for some Cosa Nostra Pizza Delivery?

Yeah, read some Asimov too and Ray Bradbury has been on my list for some time.

Have you seen the "Ghost in The Shell" movie and anime series? Very good cyberpunk series. Even inspired The Matrix.

Saw Matrix series and really loved it, without knowing what cyberpunk was. Actually haven't read much cyberpunk, but am really interested in it and have begun my Ph.D. in it so am reading stuff one by one.

Yes, Hiro works as pizza delivery guy in Snow Crash.

I haven't yet seen "Ghost in the Shell", though I'm familiar with the name...

Let me know if you've read anything good, I'd be glad if everyone recommends, reads and discusses stuff...

Did you go through "The Female Man"? or "The Divine Invasion" or "Nemesis"? The last two aren't cyberpunk, though...

Nope, haven't had the chance to read them, or much cyberpunk in general. Books of this genre are very rare in India, and cost a lot in online stores.

Do check out "Ghost In the Shell". The 1995 movie came first, all other anime adaptations like GITS: Innocence, GITS: Stand Alone Complex etc came later. You can also check out this old anime called Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I'll try going through some of your recs. Could you clarify what's "steampunk" and how is it different from cyberpunk?

Have read around one-fourth of Snow Crash then. Neal Stephenson is the biggest cyberpunk name at the moment I think. Unfortunately, the book belonged to my roommate, who had to shift, so it got left in between.

Cyberpunk is sci-fi about the future, steampunk is sci-fi about the past when steam engines was the latest technology.

Steampunk is a sub-genre of science fiction that typically features steam-powered machinery, especially in a setting inspired by industrialized Western civilization during the 19th century.

Therefore, steampunk works are often set in an alternate history of the 19th century's British Victorian era or American "Wild West", in a post-apocalyptic future during which steam power has regained mainstream use, or in a fantasy world that similarly employs steam power.

Steampunk perhaps most recognizably features anachronistic technologies or retro-futuristic inventions as people in the 19th century might have envisioned them, and is likewise rooted in the era's perspective on fashion, culture, architectural style, and art.

Such technology may include fictional machines like those found in the works of H. G. Wells and Jules Verne, or the modern authors Philip Pullman, Scott Westerfeld, and China Miéville.

Other examples of steampunk contain alternate history-style presentations of such technology as lighter-than-air airships, analog computers, or such digital mechanical computers as Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace's Analytical Engine.

Steampunk may also, though not necessarily, incorporate additional elements from the genres of fantasy, horror, historical fiction, alternate history, or other branches of speculative fiction, making it often a hybrid genre.

(Took the info directly from Wikipedia, except for the first sentence, which was my own)

Don't read 'The Female Man' if you are not interested into heavy feminist stuff. It is a story of one woman living in 4 different alternate parallel universes, living as different women with different mindsets, unaware about each other's existence, and a discussion of feminism when they happen to come together. So basically, the 4 women are one woman living in different worlds, at the same time.

Didn't like 'The Divine Invasion" too.

And 'Nemesis' was good, in fact, but I'm not that interested in stories about space-travel. Cyberpunk, the setting on earth in the near-future technological dystopia is more my type... 'I, Robot' (movie) or 'The Minority Report'(movie) is more to my taste...

Try second-hand sellers for less expensive books. I'm thinking of ordering online, from flipkart... Free shipping.

Lucky guy, your roomie left 'Snow Crash'. I haven't read it yet, just read the summary online. Let me know when you finish it. Hope to read it soon myself.

cyberpunk has often carried elements of cyborgs, robots, androids, etc.

Cyberpunk is a postmodern science fiction genre noted for its focus on "high tech and low life."[1][2] It features advanced science, such as information technology and cybernetics, coupled with a degree of breakdown or radical change in the social order.[3]

Cyberpunk plots often center on a conflict among hackers, artificial intelligences, and megacorporations, and tend to be set in a near-future Earth, rather than the far-future settings or galactic vistas found in novels such as Isaac Asimov's Foundation or Frank Herbert's Dune.[4] The settings are usually post-industrial dystopias but tend to be marked by extraordinary cultural ferment and the use of technology in ways never anticipated by its creators ("the street finds its own uses for things").[5] Much of the genre's atmosphere echoes film noir, and written works in the genre often use techniques from detective fiction.[6]


"Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body." – Lawrence Person[7]

Did you see the recent movie 'In Time'? I liked it. It's pretty much cyberpunk. I have a list of about 30 really good cyberpunk movies. Check out also, the novel and the movie 'Children of Men'. Not seen it or read it, but again, it has been much acclaimed.

i love the early ballard, 'crash' and the short stories. i would put him as the ultimate writer of dystopia, although whether his writing has enough elements of cyberpunk or not, is debatable.

i read an interesting article the other day about steampunk and its relevance to fashion today, but this discussion on its impact on literature, is fascinating despite my general aversion to the genre and its offshoots.

Read anything you can by William Gibson--after all, he is considered the writer who really made a name for cyberpunk. I read Snow Crash but didn't like it all that much. It seemed too derivative.

Ken wrote: "Read anything you can by William Gibson--after all, he is considered the writer who really made a name for cyberpunk. I read Snow Crash but didn't like it all that much. It seemed too derivative."

Yes, will have to begin with him though I'm going to focus on feminist point of view for my research... I'm going to order books online. Even Landmark or Crossword have no books on sci-fi, which is very depressing... they don't even have a single book of Gibson...

Kunal wrote: "i love the early ballard, 'crash' and the short stories. i would put him as the ultimate writer of dystopia, although whether his writing has enough elements of cyberpunk or not, is debatable.

i r..."

Could you give me the link you mentioned? Although it is not very relevant, but then, who knows, it might be useful in some unknown way...

I've heard that there's some sci-fi written in Marathi. Don't know about other regional languages, but I hope someone knows anything about it and posts a reply concerning that.

Is there no sci-fi in Indian languages? or written by Indians in English at least?

Foram wrote: "I've heard that there's some sci-fi written in Marathi. Don't know about other regional languages, but I hope someone knows anything about it and posts a reply concerning that.

Is there no sci-fi ..."

Closest i came to know is Satyajit Ray's short stories..

Foram, Asimov's Robot series is set in near future Earth rather than the far and are primarily murder mysteries unlike the Foundation series. Do they qualify for cyberpunk?

Are they dystopias? Where technology decides, or at least, has the power to decide the course of human life? I'm sorry I haven't read Asimov except for 'Nemesis' and watching 'I, Robot'. Primarily because I'm focusing on dystopian sci-fi, i.e., cyberpunk, especially feminist ones for my Ph.D.

If it's like 'I, Robot', I guess it will be cyberpunk. Technology needs to dominate human life leading to a dystopia. Or at least, mega-corporations need to control human life extensively through technology.

Though the starting premise is pretty much common across Asimov and I, Robot they digress a lot as to the reason for dystopia. I, Robot attempts to be more grandiose, while in Asimov's robot series u don't see dystopia coming through so soon. It happens eventually after 5 books have passed in the series - he just talks of times where technology is a boon as well as a bane. The lead character is not as embracing of the technology though... Am sure u will like the Robot series much better than the I, Robot movie..

Okay, I'll read it. Actually, I read Asimov's Opus 100 and Opus 200, a memoir on how he wrote his first 200 books and excerpts from them. He said that he had condensed and altered a little bit his ROBOT series to make them into one novel, 'I, Robot'. The latter is actually maybe 7 or 9 of his Robot stories interwoven together to form a coherent novel.

I, Robot is a collection of stories as recollected by one of Asimov's characters named Susan Calvin (no relation to the character in I, Robot movie), when she was interviewed .

I will end here, if i talk any more Asimov, am sure the other mods will delete my posts as unwarranted promotions! :(

More reference here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/6...

Mods,
:P

Is it so?? Asimov IS a part of Cyberpunk, na??? I haven't made a strict demarcation of topics to be discussed.... :(

Foram wrote: "Is it so?? Asimov IS a part of Cyberpunk, na??? I haven't made a strict demarcation of topics to be discussed.... :("

I didn't mean talking asimov in general, i was pointing to my relentless promotion of Asimov's works urging ppl to read (as if i were the author), enticing them unwittingly :)

LOL, I actually welcome the insistence on reading. Only if something is really good, do people urge others to read the same. I have a pretty good idea I'll like Asimov, and I do not at all dislike the idea of being egged on to read. I might end up missing some nice thing if somebody doesn't push me!!! (Won't argue if the mods have a problem)

Foram wrote: "(Won't argue if the mods have a problem) ..."

Nope, mine was just a tongue-in-cheek remark. I have deleted many a author's self-promotional non-contextual posts in various threads and while typing out my prev posts i thought thats exactly how i sounded too

:) Funny, I too end up begging people to read my favorite books, then realize it maybe went over the top. But I earnestly welcome insistences from almost everyone to read books. Most of my favorite books have come from others' lists.

>>"..or written by Indians in English at least?"

I've still got my India passport so I guess I qualify :)
But my work is in the hard science genre, so no Space ships, FTL or aliens.
I do approach cyberpunk but barely graze it, not really docking in there (if you'll excuse the forced attempt at a sci-fi pun).

The story in Memories with Maya touches on Transhumanism, even Quantum Archeology (raising the dead) and mind-uploading. That last one, mind-uploading, is where we rendezvous with cyber punk a bit.

Though yes, for me, the defining cyberpunk author is Gibson. So sorry Litbug, haven't come across any feminist steampunk in Indian literature in my limited exposure to authors from here, but if it's modern (hard) sci-fi you're looking at, I've just ventured in.

Best Regards.

Lit Bug wrote: >>Even Landmark or Crossword have no books on sci-fi, which is very depressing... they don't even have a single book of Gibson...

Wow, and considering India is an I.T. powerhouse with a huge younger generation.
This is valuable info you've provided. I was thinking of visiting the Landmark outlets in Mumbai and Delhi with a promo in mind.

Now I feel I was in part right, in keeping the story to novella length. It seems that literature is dying hobby, what with always-on distractions of the net and bite sized video clips keeping the younger gen, and anyone under 50, distracted.

I don't know if literature is dying, exactly, but it seems to be trending increasingly toward "junk food" novels here in the US. The top three categories on Amazon are romance, erotica, and erotic romance. That should tell us something :)

Fantasy and cyberpunk/sci-fi are two genres you won't get easily in Landmark. God knows how many times a month I visit it. There are SOME fantasy novels but not that good and usually only the very popular ones.

Your right Ken, good analogy. Mommy porn lol, whoever coined that phrase, got it right too.

The Raven, Is there also a censorship issue on book subjects/topics? Could that be a reason for not stocking shelves or is it that the genre itself has no takers?
The reason I ask is, because I've been out of touch with book shelves in India. Or is it a non-issue.

I don't think that's the case. Mills & Boons and Fifty Shades sell a lot over here so no genre is taboo. IF some book may be viewed as hurting some religious sentiments, ONLY then it will be banned.

Majority of the readers in India are female and most of them aren't that interested in fantasy and cyberpunk, so that may be a reason. Online stores are the only place to get these from. I was lucky enough to get some not so well known fantasy novels from Landmark that I actually liked.

That's great then. I've also noticed by amazon dashboard now shows that kindle e-books are available in India. That opens up a whole market for readers.

Maybe males catch up! with the kindle app on phone/ipads.

Reading is not a respectable pursuit worth aspiring to in India, for majority of households, which is not to say that people don't read, but that very few people read, and fewer people know what to read, and even fewer people read what they are interested in. Many people read to show off, to tell their civilized compatriots how many classics they have read. Second-handers, as Ayn Rand would put it. Reading to please others, to make a name, to be considered well-bred.

Wait till a cyberpunk title becomes a huge hit, not old ones, but a new title, and everyone will swear by it and begin to read everything that comes under cyberpunk so as not be left behind in the race.

Serious readers are exempted from this criticism. Since this was a question of the lack of MASS appeal in cyberpunk, I left out the respectable minority that reads for the SELF.

Litbug, I hear you. At the risk of taking this thread at a tangent into a critique of how mainstream "Bollywood" is to blame for it's lazy production and the commercially minded attitude of screen-writers and producers... oh wait, this is veering off track isn't it ? :)

I remember Atlas Shrugged was on many a "high society" bookshelf when I visited with friends.
I know that I'm repeating myself, but it is strange that for an I.T nation, the males aren't reading or creating works (either film or literature) in the sci-fi genre.

On a side note, I'm taking another look at my own book Memories with Maya, and seeing if it may just be grazing at cyberpunk to a certain extent. Would being plugged into (not Matrix style plugs) a network, wearing Augmented Reality visors and err.. having sex with tactile feedback qualify as entering cyberpunk to a certain extent?

I'd be happy to send you a Kindle Gift-card for the book if you care to have a look and maybe I'd garner a review if you're suitably drawn in? At 215 pages it's more novella than novel.

Let me know?
Memories With Maya

Clyde wrote: "Litbug, I hear you. At the risk of taking this thread at a tangent into a critique of how mainstream "Bollywood" is to blame for it's lazy production and the commercially minded attitude of screen-..."

Thank you for the offer, but I'm afraid I won't be able to take it up. No issues with your work, I'd be glad to read it, but I've other prior commitments to fulfill first.

Best regards for your work.

But you can ask the others by posting a new thread under the Promotions folder in this group. Thanks.

Thanks LitBug. The paperback is already on a give-away promo on GoodReads. The request above was only to see if the story also fits in with cyber-punk specifically.

Best Regards.

I think it might fit in if it a dystopia brought in by control through technology. Although they say the original cyberpunk is now dead, and cyber-punkish is what all later works are called, derivatives of the original cyberpunk.

I wonder why no one yet mentioned these book series

1)The Hunger Games - Suzzane Collins
Set in the dystopian world, in a nation named Panem. Panem is divided into the wealthy Capitol and twelve surrounding districts.As punishment for a past rebellion against the Capitol, one boy and one girl between the ages of 12 and 18 from each district are selected by an annual lottery to participate in the Hunger Games, an event in which the participants must fight to the death in an outdoor arena controlled by the Capitol, until only one individual remains.

2) Divergent series - Veronica Roth
After the apocalypse, humanity reorganised into 5 factions.Those who believe society fell apart because of greed formed the faction of Abnegation (the Selfless), sworn off of practices considered self-indulgent and pledged to act selflessly. Those who believe the collapse was due to ignorance pledged themselves to the Erudite (the Intelligent), sworn to a never-ending path of complete knowledge acquisition. Those who feel that human duplicity wreaked havoc in the world took the banner of Candor (the Honest), pledging to always speak their minds and the truth. Those who feel that aggression was the root of society’s collapse became the members of Amity (the Peaceful), taking the mantle of peace at all costs. And finally, those who feel that the root of all their problems stemmed from cowardice formed the tribe of the Dauntless (the Brave), the faction of the courageous and strong.

I dnt recollect any scci fi aspects in hunger games.....

And welcome back Meen, after a whole year! How've u been?

Hunger Games definitely can not be called a sci fi but yes it is about a dystopian world.

Well I did a lot of 'studying' the past year ..I had my boards this year. Hence, the absence. Since my exams just finished, I decided to take a break but don't welcome me back just yet; I have entrances and competitive exams to give.

Meenakshi those are post apocalyptic/dystopian but I don't think they qualify as cyberpunk. Technology must be involved in a major way and impact people's lives on a day to day basis in this genre.

The main premise of cyberpunk is that Technology has to define the dystopian world. It is a dystopia that has to be come into existence through a technology that comes into exclusive power and over-rides any other argument against its existence or implementation.

One man's Dystopia is another's Utopia.

I feel Cyberpunk will slowly evolve to include a non-dystopian world.
Punk by definition is quite broad, and although "rebel" is one of it's definitions, it does not state explicitly that the rebellion is in favor of bringing about a dystopian world. It could be rebellion for good: Singularity? (again that opens another can of worms depending on which side you sit on)

Consider this: A person wearing "Google Glass" could be thought of as being "jacked in" to the grid.(internet), thereby bringing about Cyberpunk like overtones. Yet I don't see the world devolving into a dystopian one because of this (arguably)exclusive tech that we know will over-ride any argument against it's existence...the same way as we are crippled without Google.com (or similar search engines).

I propose the term "WizerPunk" for those wearing technology that plugs them into the internet. :)

of course a "WizerPunk" (visor+punk) world may not come about if Gary G. Howell gets has anything to say about it:
http://www.slashgear.com/lawmaker-see...

I think it is dystopia when it represses people's freedom through technology that not only participates intricately in you lives, but intrudes your lives, controls your choices and refuses to offer you any other alternatives of a way of life. It is a repressive SOCIAL ORDER brought about not by social or moral norms or beliefs, but by penetrating use of technology through which a few control the masses and are capable of PHYSICALLY restraining rebellious elements, where humans are not HUMANS, but herds to be controlled and monitored through systematic brain-washing and punishment in extreme cases.

Technology is bound to advance unbelievably in the coming years, and we will find ourselves more and more crippled without it in the days to come, and yet, it won't be a dystopia, because we are not being forced to do something or restrain from doing something against the norm simply because of the presence of technology.

There's a vast difference between dependence on technology and being ruled by technology.

Lit Bug wrote: "I think it is dystopia when it represses people's freedom through technology that not only participates intricately in you lives, but intrudes your lives, controls your choices and refuses to offer..."
Good definition!

controls your choices
This is a bit ambiguous; an oxymoron if you will.
Control of choice is not choice at all. It's dictatorship. I do know what you mean though: Giving fewer "options" to choose from.

..by penetrating use of technology through which a few control the masses and are capable of PHYSICALLY restraining rebellious elements, where humans are not HUMANS,

Sooner rather than later, there won't be physical rebellion as much, as we cast votes increasingly online. Complete system takeovers, crippling a Govt. can be done remotely, either by a country or group of rebels/hackers (controlling the power-grid or nuclear facility of a place)
...Just food for thought

or did you mean Physically immobilizing/restraining in a metaphorical sense, via brainwashing?

We are defining two things here as I see:
- Dystopia
- Cyberpunk

Both can be mutually exclusive?

Regards.

If you see 'I, ROBOT' or "IN TIME' (movies), you'll get what I mean by Physically restraining. They restrain us first by brain-washing, so they won't trouble you at all, and if somebody gets past through all that, and rebels, they try to physically restrain you.

Cyberpunk MUST be a dystopia. That is the definition of cyberpunk. A dystopia brought about by technology controlling human life, mostly through brain-washing, or by physical extermination of rebellious, potentially dangerous elements. Technology and dystopia are the keywords in cyberpunk. Without either, it cannot be cyberpunk. There can be dystopias without technology, but then they won't come under cyberpunk. A non-dystopian future with loads of technology also isn't cyberpunk.

Lit Bug wrote: "If you see 'I, ROBOT' or "IN TIME' (movies), you'll get what I mean by Physically restraining. They restrain us first by brain-washing, so they won't trouble you at all, and if somebody gets past t..."

This actually depends...
Here's a random sampling of definitions:

Wikipedia: Cyberpunk is a postmodern science fiction genre noted for its focus on "high tech and low life."[1][2] It features advanced science, such as information technology and cybernetics, coupled with a degree of breakdown or radical change in the social order.[3]
Cyberpunk plots often center on a conflict among hackers, artificial intelligences, and megacorporations, and tend to be set in a near-future Earth,

Note the careful use of "radical" and non insistence on "breakdown". Also, in the next sentence the use of the word "often"

merriam-webster:
1: science fiction dealing with future urban societies dominated by computer technology
2: an opportunistic computer hacker

Answers.com:
Fast-paced science fiction involving futuristic computer-based societies.

however, Dictionary.com does say:
1. a genre of science fiction that features rebellious computer hackers and is set in a dystopian society integrated by computer networks

My interpretation is, there is no insistence on tying Cyberpunk with a Dystopian world. While most novels will of course do tie them together, the definition leaves scope for classifying CyberPunk as capable of standing alone.

I would call a person wearing Google glasses or something similar, where he/she is jacked into a digital world, while walking the real world... a cyberpunk.
It does not mean that the world itself has devolved.

People could choose to be Cyberpunk or Amish, in that respect.

My two ¢ :)

I got my definitions from literary sources by authors who are considered authority on the subject. Patrick Parrinder's 'Science Fiction : A Critical Guide', as well as other sources.

There is a derivative of cyber-punk which is now called POST-CYBERPUNK, which fits with the definition in Wikipedia, Merriam-Webster and answers.com. Although many people err in calling them the same, technically, they are two different directions, the dystopian (cyberpunk) and the non-dystopian (post-cyberpunk).

Please see the link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpun...

It differentiates clearly between cyberpunk and post-cyberpunk...