Lover at Last discussion

Will John ever remember his old life?
Is murhder Butch & Manny's Father?
Is Havers the new info person for the bob?
Is throe's sister no'one?
In the warden's short story, who is the vampire in the basement?
Why do we not hear about the scribe virgin anymore?

Tracy wrote: "Will John ever remember his old life?
Is murhder Butch & Manny's Father?
Is Havers the new info person for the bob?
Is throe's sister no'one?
In the warden's short story, who is the vampire in th..."

1. No, he won't remember. She mentioned this in one of her signings. The price of his getting his new life was that he wouldn't remember his old one and he would make one concession (his voice). As far as I know, she hasn't changed this.

2. Not sure but I wouldn't think so. Butch and Manny's father was a doctor, we know that and I don't see Murhder as the doctor type though who knows. We only got that one peek at him so it's possible.

3. No, he's not. She stated at her signing that the solicitor for BoB is actually Saxton's father.

4. I don't believe Throe is Autumn's sister. I never really thought of a connection between those two and a brother was never mentioned when they were doing all the flashbacks in Lover Mine regarding Xhex's background story.

5. His name is Michael and he is Murdher's brother. She doesn't know if these two will ever truly come about in a story but it's always a possibility.

6. She mentioned that at her signing as well. She stated that we will, she's just sort of hit a rut as to where to go with it but will be working her back into the stories soon. I guess she just hit a brick wall when it come to figuring out what to do with her now that the Chosen are staying with Phury and traditions aren't being followed like they used to. They said, and I'm quoting. Will the SV be in The King? She doesn’t know but something will need to be done with her.

The Quesiton about Throe and Autumn,, wasnt autumn buried under the apple tree.

Gypsi Babii wrote: "The Quesiton about Throe and Autumn,, wasnt autumn buried under the apple tree."

Yes, Tohrment buried her under the apple tree after she killed herself after giving birth to Xhex. That's why there's an apple tree in bloom on the foyer of the mansion.

Thanks Brandi!!!! I still believe autumn is throe's sister but I guess we will have to wait and see.=) There is still more unanswered questions but I can't remember them now. Lol well atleast we know what happen to Quinns brother.

Gypsi,,she was buried under the tree but she came back a little unfinished business you could call it. In the end of lover reborn they tell you exactly what happen with that.

Any guess as to who Xcor's mother & father are? Because we know it is NOT the bloodletter,,right?

Aaaaand... The coffins in the basement?

@ tracy.. I asked that because did Xcor have her ashes ... So whos ashes did he have.

I am thinking that Xcor was maybe a baby born in the camp. But this is my biggest question.. at no time did him and V to meet? because I doubt if any of the BoB was born of the chosen.

Beatrice wrote: "Aaaaand... The coffins in the basement?"

That came up at the signing.

Do we know about the coffins in the garage? Not yet but she *thinks* it may come up in The King

I've felt this since reading LUnL, that Xcor is going to turn out to be Tohr's brother. Due to what was said about the many unclaimed "bastard children" Tohr's father is said to have had in the flashbacks of LM, to the constant references of Xcor's features (Hair & eyes) identical to Tohr's, in LUnL & not to mention we also learn that the Bloodletter is in fact not Xcor's father, and then to Tohr making the formal request to Wrath in LReb to being the ONLY ONE who can take Xcor out, this screams of a sure fire way plot wise, in keeping Xcor alive if Tohr learns that Xcor is in fact the brother he never knew about. Not to mention Tohr's request to Wrath (view spoiler)[ was brought up again in LaL briefly between Wrath and V (hide spoiler)] So this also says that something more is on the horizon concerning this in future books.

~*~Princess Nhya~*~ wrote: "I've felt this since reading LUnL, that Xcor is going to turn out to be Tohr's brother. Due to what was said about the many unclaimed "bastard children" Tohr's father is said to have had in the fla..."

Ya know...I never really realized that Xcor and Tohr look alike. Some of these more subtle 'hints' that she gives, I tend to miss lol. I'll definitely be paying a little more attention next time I go to reread the series lol

Omg I am so going to have to read this series again!!! So who is Tohr's mother again? Because I do recall ALL BDB mother's are of chosen blood line. I totally forgot about the coffins. Are those in Asil's garage? I REALLY HOPE THE KING IS GOING TO BE THAT BOOK IN THE SERIES THAT TIES A LOT OF THINGS PAST AND FUTURE TOGETHER!! Don't get me wrong I love the relationships but there is more to the series then just that.

I believe that Tohr's mother was either a Chosen, or of a Chosen bloodline. I can't really remember.

The coffins are in Wrath's garage at the mansion.

Not so much an unansweres question in the books themselves.
Why arent Rhage and Mary mentioned much in any books bar the first 2. It's like they're the forgotten characters.

I was thinking the same thing Francine. My thought is she's trying to fit a lot into her books so some of the bdb that already has had their story told kinda take a back sit until they are needed.

My questions: Has it been 20 months since Z's book? His Epilogue is 20 months after Nala's birth and training is supposed to have resumed by then. Also, what ever became of the idea of a civilian police force mentioned in Butch and Marissa's book? And, wasn't there talk of a young for Rhage and Mary in a novella?

I think we'll see more of the SV when Payne returns to the Sanctuary to rejuvenate herself. There's probably some kind of reunion/reconciliation waiting in the wings for them. I also think that we're in for a MAJOR overhaul of the vampire society in THE KING.

@Tracy - apparently I missed the Short Story! Where is it?

@Princess Nyah - YES! I think Xcor is Tohr's brother. I caught the similarity in their descriptions and was almost certain of it when Tohr made his request of Wrath. I am dying to read how Xcor and Layla will get their HEA.

...and from whom does Payne feed?

Readinmama wrote: "...and from whom does Payne feed?"

I'm going to take a wild guess on this since I never really thought about that before but maybe V? Since he doesn't have to feed Doc Jane, that would seem the most logical even though Manny probably doesn't like the Goateed-Hater doing it lol

Ewww Feeding from her Brother? That's kinda kinky gross LOL

~*~Princess Nhya~*~ wrote: "Ewww Feeding from her Brother? That's kinda kinky gross LOL"

LOL Well yea if you think of it sexually it's gross :P But I see it kind of like the brothers feeding off the Chosen. I'm sure they consider the chosen family since they have no sexual attraction to them.

I say it's gross cos "feeding" has a sexual, intimacy undertone to it. It just is. It's something that even if it's not intended it can't completely be avoided to a certain degree. So feeding from one who is ur blood brother is too much for me to reconcile from just feeding from the Chosen that you may consider as family.

Yeah I don't think that Payne feeds from V that is sort of gross and Manny is part vamp so she might be able to feed from him and get what she needs

My question is in earlier books she alludes to the Shadows being black but in LaL she doesn't mention it all. I mean we got to know more about the brothers in this book than I would have liked because I wanted more Quay than Trez and iAm.

Letitia wrote: My question is in earlier books she alludes to the Shadows being black but in LaL she doesn't mention it all. ."

I think it wasn't mentioned in LaL cos there really was no need to mention it. We already know. Upon their introduction into the series as well as the fact that in numerous books in the series they've been referred to as the "Moors" in some fashion or another so it really was no need to re-introduce their race.

I'm glad we did finally get more background on them in LaL though.

Letitia wrote: "Yeah I don't think that Payne feeds from V that is sort of gross and Manny is part vamp so she might be able to feed from him and get what she needs

My question is in earlier books she alludes to ..."
I thought she does, though quite subtly. Selena says she can't place what kind of being Trez is, and he says he knows she's not referring to the difference in pigmentation. And Selena seems to be being described as someone of colour at least - she has 'cafe au lait' skin, though that's never been mentioned before either.

~*~Princess Nhya~*~ wrote: "Letitia wrote: My question is in earlier books she alludes to the Shadows being black but in LaL she doesn't mention it all. ."

I think it wasn't mentioned in LaL cos there really was no need to m..."

I'm just asking because one it matters to me as a person of color and second I do want to see more diversity in her books. Yes we have gay characters and that is wonderful I am a total Quay shipper but I would like to see more color in the characters. I mean the Old Country can refer to Africa just as well as Europe.

Letitia wrote: " ~*~Princess Nhya~*~ wrote: "Letitia wrote: My question is in earlier books she alludes to the Shadows being black but in LaL she doesn't mention it all. ."

I think it wasn't mentioned in LaL cos..."

I know she describes there coloring in one of the book then in one of the Fallen angel she mention that they have an Europe accent.

Letitia wrote: I'm just asking because one it matters to me as a person of color and second I do want to see more diversity in her books. Yes we have gay characters and that is wonderful I am a total Quay shipper but I would like to see more color in the characters. I mean the Old Country can refer to Africa just as well as Europe.


I understand what you're saying. I was just saying since most of us who are familar with this series & with Trez & iAm, are aware of their race so there was really no major need to mention it again in LaL. Up until LaL all we really knew of them was their race and station with Rehv etc.. So the fact that we get a little more in depth info on them in LaL IMO, is what was most needed. Honestly I wanted to know more of them in this one than I did of Assail & his side plot. Hoping Trez gets more page time in "The King" though.

~*~Princess Nhya~*~ wrote: "Letitia wrote: I'm just asking because one it matters to me as a person of color and second I do want to see more diversity in her books. Yes we have gay characters and that is wonderful I am a tot..."

I'm familiar with the series and have read every book more than once, but she mentioned it in such a passing and never said anything about it again that I wanted to double check. She makes a point of always repeating someone's physical description that I wanted to make sure.

And since in this book she is starting to expand their role and get into there story I found it curious that she didn't mention their physical description again. I mean if that's alright with you.

Letitia wrote: I'm familiar with the series and have read every book more than once, but she mentioned it in such a passing and never said anything about it again that I wanted to double check. She makes a point of always repeating someone's physical description that I wanted to make sure.

And since in this book she is starting to expand their role and get into there story I found it curious that she didn't mention their physical description again.I mean if that's alright with you.

????? Did I say something in my previous comments to give the impression that it's not? If so, forgive me cos that wasn't my intention. I was just stating why for me it didn't matter if it was mentioned or not. Just as you were stating why for you it did. And that's how I took it. Just a discussion with a fellow BDB Sis about it.

~*~Princess Nhya~*~ wrote: "Letitia wrote: I'm just asking because one it matters to me as a person of color and second I do want to see more diversity in her books. Yes we have gay characters and that is wonderful I am a tot..."

LOL Letitia ... Funny you mention this because in my head they .. ARE OF COLOR. Doesn't matter how she describes them, I have my own image in my head.

Deneen wrote: " ~*~Princess Nhya~*~ wrote: "Letitia wrote: I'm just asking because one it matters to me as a person of color and second I do want to see more diversity in her books. Yes we have gay characters an..."

I see them as characters of color as well, but then that brings up larger issues forme if they are indeed "black men" as shadows. Which if they are shadows and do happen to be black men irks me a tad with the naming and it irks me again with the pairing if they are lol.

Just wanted to share, I read this on another site somewhere. It's a quote from J.R. Ward : Someone asked about more vampires of “color”. Here is the WARDen’s response: “The vampires in my books are not caucasian. They've got paler skin than African American humans, true, and they are not African Americans, true- but they aren't white/cauc. either because they aren't human and those are human race disctinctions.The Shadows have darker skin- yes, abso. And they resemble more closely African American humans in terms of physical characteristics- and they are refered to as Moors- but they aren't human, either, so technically, they aren't African American because again that's a definition that refers to the human race. That being said- and I truly hope this is making sense- and this is coming across in the very respectful way I'm intending it to- as far as I can see, iAm and Trez have stories to be told and I'd love to write them! They're mad hot and very very interesting. And they are vampires, just another evolutionary off shoot in the vampire bloodlines.” 

I found this on on another topic hope it helps....

As for another question I have does anyone know or have a guess as to who LASH'S real mother is....could that be Throe's sister? I believe she has a story some where as to who his sister is. Just have that feeling lol

Tracy wrote: "Just wanted to share, I read this on another site somewhere. It's a quote from J.R. Ward : Someone asked about more vampires of “color”. Here is the WARDen’s response: “The vampires in my books are..."

Thanks for posting that Tracy. And I've read this quote as well but IMO, it just made her sound really ignorant. Yes, they are Vamps but they are vamps with not only human blood/Non Species blood in them (cos remember Wrath is the last Pure blood among them), but they also come from a region where the last time I checked with those physical traits/characteristics, they would be considered white. No question. And as far as Trez & iAm are concerned, Moors are black. So if Ward did not want them to be classified as that, then she should not have wrote them in as such.

I feel like whether you choose to write a minority in ur stories or not and then make the choice to elaborate on that, then don't try to cop out on ur reasons for doing it or not doing it.

It's your story. You don't owe anyone any explanation as to why this is present and why that isn't.

Tracy wrote: "As for another question I have does anyone know or have a guess as to who LASH'S real mother is....could that be Throe's sister? I believe she has a story some where as to who his sister is. Just h..."

I've never thought about who Lash's birth mother could be. The way it was written when that story was being told was that she was just a civilian vamp that the Omega had kidnapped. Plus, this occurred over in the "New World" as they call it, and not the old Country. And given Lash's age it wasn't that many years ago. Cos Lash is the same age as JM & Qhuinn and Blay.

But it would be an interesting twist I think, if Ward were to change some of the particulars surrounding Lash's conception.

And I can't remember but didn't Throe's sister die? or is she still living in the old country somewhere?

Tracy wrote: "Just wanted to share, I read this on another site somewhere. It's a quote from J.R. Ward : Someone asked about more vampires of “color”. Here is the WARDen’s response: “The vampires in my books are..."

Whether they are human or vamps she is describing them in human terms and not all of them are pure vamp either. And frankly when you use the word Moor everyone is going to think black. I'm sorry that just reads like a cop out to me.

And thats what happens when you throw around minority characters without understanding the nuisances of minority characters.

But that's just me. I still love the books tho.

Letitia wrote: Whether they are human or vamps she is describing them in human terms and not all of them are pure vamp either. And frankly when you use the word Moor everyone is going to think black. I'm sorry that just reads like a cop out to me.

And thats what happens when you throw around minority characters without understanding the nuisances of minority characters. "

Exactly.. And Like you, I too still enjoy the books inspite of this.

Nhya I didn't know what MOORS were so thanks to google I found this:
The term "Moors" has also been used in Europe in a broader sense to refer to anyone of Arab or North African descent, whether living in Spain or North Africa. Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people. Medieval and early modern Europeans applied the name to the Berbers, North African Arabs, Muslim Iberians[2] and West Africans from Maliand Niger who had been absorbed into the Almoravid dynasty.[3] Mainstream scholars obseed in 1911 that "The term 'Moors' has no real ethnological value."[4]

So now I kinda get what she was going for. I don't believe any of the BDB are white I believe they are European which is different and that's why she always refers to the old country, the old country meaning Europe. I could be wrong it is just my guess. My grandfather is from Russian desent and his skin was darker his hair was black and very different from mine. I believe beth is described different because her mother is white American. I don't know what do you think? I'm trying to do this on my phone so excuse my misspelling or mistakes. Lol

About the throe's sister she was kidnapped and then that story kinda was left without telling what happened to her. That is how Throe became a BOB. So my thought is that she could be either Autumn or Lash's mom. When he was born it was here I thought in the old farm house. I really need to go back and read so I know for sure. I read so many series I sometimes forget certain details.

~*~Princess Nhya~*~ wrote: "Tracy wrote: "Just wanted to share, I read this on another site somewhere. It's a quote from J.R. Ward : Someone asked about more vampires of “color”. Here is the WARDen’s response: “The vampires i..."

Amen Sister

But I too have read or watched that somewhere. I really think that Ward is really trying not to offend people, same about the same sex issue. That's nice for her to continue to do that but also I do agree that if it is her book, that she is writing "WHO GIVE A FUCK" what she wants the character to be..Shit I have read books where I have change there looks in my mind completely to make my fantasy better.

Anyway.... I would like to see different colors but would you really stop reading a series because of the lack of races throught the pages.

Gypsi Babii wrote: Anyway.... I would like to see different colors but would you really stop reading a series because of the lack of races throught the pages. ."

No, I personally wouldn't stop reading a book/series because of this. Which is why I'm still reading it. LOL

Tracy wrote: So now I kinda get what she was going for. I don't believe any of the BDB are white I believe they are European which is different and that's why she always refers to the old country, the old country meaning Europe. I could be wrong it is just my guess. My grandfather is from Russian desent and his skin was darker his hair was black and very different from mine. I believe beth is described different because her mother is white American. I don't know what do you think? I'm trying to do this on my phone so excuse my misspelling or mistakes. Lol


No worries, those freakin phones! LOL

I can see why Ward explained it in the manner that she did. I understand that for some it's a sensitive topic and she didn't want to offend anyone. I get that. But her explanation, if you will, based upon her take, is just was not entirely accurate and it came off as a cop out IMO.

There are white & black people in Europe just as there are white and black people in Africa, just like here in the U.S. And like Letitia pointed out, they are Vamps yes, but she is describing them in human terms. And she's specific about what they look like as far as their physical characteristics.

White/Caucasian: pertaining to, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, marked by fair to dark skin, straight to tightly curled hair, and light to very dark eyes, and originally inhabiting Europe, parts of North Africa, western Asia, and India:

A moor is a Muslim from Africa. Most moors were from northern Africa (Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya & Egypt) and were olive-skinned with Mediterranean or Coptic features. Many moors were dark-skinned with African features.
*This is considered a minority/black* If they were asked to fill out an ethnic/nationality card, guess what box they would have to check..

So when you take into account the histories of our people where we all originate from etc... Compare this to Ward's physical descriptions of the Brothers & Trez iAm, (and lets not forget she labeled the shadows as Moors alongside their physical traits)
You can't argue the fact that the Brothers would in fact be considered/labeled as white, and Trez & iAm as black. Based on the physical characterization that Ward describes them as. And that's all I'm basically saying.

It's not a big deal to me either way when it comes to the books/series etc.. but my problem is when such facts try to be explained away or glossed over. Which is what IMO, Ward did in her answer. And so I found myself asking "Why?" this is what she classified them as. It is what it is so, why the cop out?
*shrugs*

What was left unexplained and had me curious was Trez's serious case of 'migraines'. He gets so sick that he's bed ridden and it seems like a common thing for him. I know folks get migraines but that bad? It seems like something more serious for him or some condition he has? I felt like Ward was deliberately being unclear so as to reveal more about it later on. I don't know it stood out to me and had me wondering what was going on with him.

1. I didnt read the short story, what is it called and where to get it... i feel lost now. Lol
2. Who is going to keep the stories like the chosen have done in a while.
3. From my understanding lasiter was mentioned in the rapture book, do u think he will help the fallen angels?
4. Do u think the bob and the bdb r going to join forces i feel like they r for some reson..
5. Is quay going to have their ceremony? I really would love to see that..
And i have more i juswent blankl... lol
6. R we going to find out who lasiter's love was or will he find a new one?
7. Also, maybe its just me but for some reason Quay and Adrian from the fallen angels series sound so similar to me, what do u think.... also i just love both of them!!! They even have same characteristics... hmmm...

Yes ur right Melody, trez's migranes just came out of no where and i wonder if it does have to do with whats going to happen in the future with his decision making....

Melody wrote: "What was left unexplained and had me curious was Trez's serious case of 'migraines'. He gets so sick that he's bed ridden and it seems like a common thing for him. I know folks get migraines but th..."

Yes, this is what I thought as well. That it was something purposely left vague so the reveal comes about either in his book or over the course of the next few.

And yes it was somethin common for him to get. The way it was explained anyway. Maybe it's somethin to do with his "genes"? Like a growing pain for an ability coming about that his particular species sometimes has to go through? It was definitely intriguing.

Readinmama wrote: "...and from whom does Payne feed?"

Payne feeds from Manny... his blood is strong enough to power her up!

Nhya the way Ward set it up kind of reminded me of Rehv and his sympath 'side effects' when his medication wears off. I think this is similar to that. It just confused me at first cause his condition sounded like he was sick after having a night of heavy drinking. Locked in his room not able to keep anything down and won't be up on his feet until a few days. Poor thing.

Melody wrote: "Nhya the way Ward set it up kind of reminded me of Rehv and his sympath 'side effects' when his medication wears off. I think this is similar to that. It just confused me at first cause his conditi..."

Yeah, I felt that a bit too.

The thing was he knew it was comin and so did Xhex and iAm for the most part. I couldn't imagine going through that so often enough that you recognized the symtoms right before it gets progressively worse. Like clock work. *shudders*

It just made me wanna go in that room with him with some hot and cold towels and rub his back and head for him til he got better :( Heck I would have even kept a bucket by the bed so he wouldn't have to keep getting up and going to the bathroom

I only came to this discussion to see what opinions were about the race thing as I did a search on Google is Trez black. LOL I'm at the point where I don't care anymore as I'm absolutely addicted to the series at this point. She could make them all pink with purple polka dots in the next one and I'd still enjoy it. My only complaint about this book is that I felt it needed a few more chapters (then again I feel that way about all of them). Too many cliffhangers for me to maintain my sanity until next year! On the race thing, I think JR should have been more forthcoming then the PC response. I initially thought the BDB was black in the first book with all the hip-hop slang and references to 2Pac, Notorious BIG, and Jay-Z. As a black person, there was zero indication that this was about white vampires. Then when I read the physical descriptions, I had to re-read them and LOL. I just accepted it. A bunch of white vampires in a mansion that happen to be blacker culturally than many of the black people I know and I'm from inner city NJ originally. Then when she used the term Moor, that for me let me know the Trez and Iam were black as in African. Now some have broadened the definition to say that Moors weren't necessarily "black" and technically that is true, but they definitely would be considered black in American culture. Furthermore, it was indicated that they come from a Matriarchal society, which lends more credence to them being black Africans as those societies and cultures are definitely associated with West Africa for thousands of years. Again, it's more about a visual. I'd be the last person to say anything against this series in the negative. But as a person of color sometimes it would be nice to see myself in some of the more popular series out there. Which of course is why I started writing, but that is another topic. Ann Rice when asked years ago about her vampires race stated that she writes what she knows. She stated that as a white woman she writes about people she is most familiar with. I'm paraphrasing of course. I respected that answer as it wasn't offensive and made sense. Then she came out with Merrick and well...never mind. JR. Just do you. No need to come up with the least threatening response concerning race that you can think of. However, I just have to know how she came up with the BDB's character traits. What made her think hip-hop, slang, and direct references to things like The Black Album. She must be one of the flyest, down, white women in America! LOL Other than that, please, please, don't let Layla end up with Xcor. That "relationship" just rubs me the wrong way.