Outlander Series discussion

I always had the feeling that he and Claire weren't really suited for each other. I always thought that he felt threatened by Claire, or any smart woman. I am listening to Voyager and I was SO angry when the small-minded fiend proved me right.

Did anyone else want to drop him from the top of a standing stone?

I don't know about feeling threatened by smart women, but I think his personality fit in with the era, it was Claire's that didn't. But it was clear that he was not faithful. For that I didn't like him at all. I tended to lump all the Randalls in one "to hate" catagory. But when he took Claire back and raised her daughter, loving her as his own, I eased up on the hate and moved him to the "tolerable" catagory.

Yeah, I started out disliking him. It actually wasn't until Fiery Cross that I sort of began to see things from his perspective. I think the association with BJR and the fact that ultimately, Jaime is THE MAN influenced my initial opinion. Now I just feel bad for the guy. I mean, if your spouse came to you with a similar story, what would you think?!

I didn't really ever hate Frank. I disliked his philandering ways, but I had to admire him for taking care of Claire and accepting Bree as his own. It couldn't have been easy for him to take back his pregnant wife who was in love with a man from the past. Also, it was pretty awesome of him to have (view spoiler)[planted Jamie's headstone in the churchyard. (hide spoiler)] How many men do you know would do that?

Exactly! I mean, owning that doubt and complete inability to accept or believe what had happened, he was still man enough to acknowledge Clair's belief in her story without writing her off as insane. That takes balls and integrity.

Yes. It does. I think that's what Diana wants us to feel for Frank, as readers. He's flawed, but does have some redeeming qualities. He loved Claire the best way he could under the circumstances(minus the cheating). He made sure (view spoiler)[she found out that Jamie had survived. Remember, he couldn't write her off as insane because he found that mini portrait of Claire from when she was in France with Jamie. That's what helped him start believing her. (hide spoiler)] Thank goodness he's NOTHING like his "forebearer", Black Jack. *shudders*

but remember, that BJR wasn't (view spoiler)[his ancestor, Alexander, BJR's brother was - but BJR married Alexander's woman when he died... (hide spoiler)]

Right. That's why I put forebearer in quotes. ;) I (view spoiler)[loved Alex. Puir, puir, Alex. :( (hide spoiler)]

BJR was a psychopath, pure and simple. Speaking of which, does anyone know why he called Jaime "Alex" in Outlander, when they were at the prison?Was it supposed to be a creepy reference to his brother, if so, does that mean what I think it means? (ie, that BJR and his brother had some kind of freak show going on)?

no, there was (view spoiler)[a kid named alex who died in prison that BJR was attracted to - it is the same Alex who's bible Jamie has (hide spoiler)]

Oh! That's right... The Bible kid. Thanks! I feel marginally better now.

I don't know if I ever really "liked" Frank, but I didn't hate him either. I was somewher in the nether region.
As for the headstone business, I'm not sure he did that completely out of the goodness of his heart. He was very jealous of Jamie. Perhaps this was his idea of giving closure to Claire and himself as well.

Dolly wrote: " I think his personality fit in with the era, it was Claire's that didn't."

Very well said, Dolly.

I didn't hate Frank ever. I thought he was a man of his times, (which is what I say about Jamie when I get into the argument of his spanking her, how can I not condemn Jamie for something so horrid, but condemn Frank simply for wanting his wife in the home), and I believe that he loved Claire deeply, which he proved by taking care of her and (view spoiler)[a child that he knew without a shadow of a doubt was not his. And loving Bree with everything in him despite the fact that he wasn't her paternal father (hide spoiler)].

As far as Frank and adultery, here's my thoughts. (view spoiler)[I don't condone affairs, lol. But at the same time, I'm not going to say that I can't imagine a scenario where someone may have an affair and I can at least understand how it happened. Frank and Claire were separated for years due to the war. Claire herself says that they rarely saw each other, and the last time was only an overnight visit. Frank was fighting a war, his life was high stress. And again, Claire herself says that she saw many affairs start out of a easy flirtation and the stress of the war. Is it wrong, sure. But when Frank was trying to tell Claire that if she had, he would forgive her, I applauded him. He was willing to forgive an indiscretion that may have happened while they were separated for so long. And, if you think about it, he proved his point when Claire came home pregnant. Because, technically, Claire did exactly that herself. WE know that she had no choice but to marry Jamie. We also know she chose to stay with him. And yet, Frank did take her back and even continued to raise her child.

Which brings me to the idea of Franks latter affairs. Again, still wrong, but let's put it in perspective. Claire came home pregnant and madly in love with someone else. There is no way that she ever forgot about Jamie or put him aside. So every night Jamie was in Frank's bed, between him and his wife. I'm sure Claire didn't hide that she loved Jamie still, otherwise why would Frank think he'd need to look into Jamie or add the headstone. So yes, it led him to stray to other beds. Again, it's wrong, but Claire wasn't really in her marriage with Frank 100% either (hide spoiler)].

Frank did his best to be a good man. And in my mind, and actually I think Claire and Jamie believe this too, he mostly succeeded. I don't think that he had a happy life. I think he was just as miserable as Claire. But even in the end they cared for each other, and this is why even in the later books (view spoiler)[Claire still speaks to him and feels his presence, and why she never took his ring off (hide spoiler)].

What I love about DG's characters is that none of them are perfect. Frank was definitely NOT perfect, but he felt honest and realistic. He's not my favorite, but I never hated him.

While I can kinda see what you're saying about the adultery, Wendy F, I really believe Frank would have screwed around on Claire whether everything happened or not. I think that was just one of the things he did, the way he was. I think whether there was war or not, he would have cheated on her and whether she came back pregnant or not, he'd have cheated on her. But I'm not a fan of Frank. From the first, when he pre-emptively told her that if she'd cheated on him, he would have forgiven her... it was sort of an admission of guilt himself, and I kinda disliked him from that point.

The one redeeming thing he did, in my opinion, was (view spoiler)[getting Bree prepared should she ever go back in time -- getting her riding and shooting lessons, etc. when that wasn't something Frank himself was really all that interested in. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, well I can't say your wrong, lol. Since we didn't ever get to see how it could have been between Claire and Frank. My impressions of him were not that he was a cheater for the sake of cheating. Claire never hinted that in the few years they were married before the war he may have cheated. And she didn't say that his cheating started right away when (view spoiler)[she came back (hide spoiler)]. But I guess you never know.

I will say that I totally agree with you, it was an admission of guilt, lol. But I also think he meant it. Plus, he could have divorced her immediately upon (view spoiler)[coming back pregnant. Nobody would believe she went back in time, so to him she had an affair with someone else and stayed away for 2 years. That's grounds for divorce and nobody would have blamed him. She DID cheat on him. But he didn't (hide spoiler)].

But, hey, lol. That's the beauty of reading, we all form opposing opinions and can chat about it. :)

I will say it's funny because so many reviews I read say people are upset because Claire has an affair and then marries a second man. They refuse to read a book condoning this. I never blamed Claire, probably because I love Jamie though. If Jamie had been Frank, I might be more livid.

Yeah, I know lots of people had problems with how "easily" Claire married Jamie. Not that he wasn't her soul mate and they're perfect together, but it was not something she went into with her heart. She was surviving. The heart came on board later. I mean heck, the spanking thing that people also got up in arms about was because she was trying to return to the stones to get home! That's not exactly a willing partner to me, lol.

I never quite knew what to do or feel about Frank... Regardless of his ancestors, Frank isn't BJR. (view spoiler)[He's not Alex, either. (hide spoiler)]

If not for the events that took Claire to the past, it's difficult to say whether Claire and Frank would have been happy or unhappy in marriage. In a way, I tend to think that (view spoiler)[without Bree, Claire and Frank wouldn't have been together or stayed together when she came back; so in a way, Jamie is what held them together even when it was rough. Through Bree - and Jamie - Frank had a child... something we learned later was impossible for him to have on his own. (hide spoiler)]

The war indiscretions... well, no, I don't condone adultery, but in times of war, people tend to grab what's right in front of them and to hell with everything else. You never knew if you were going to live the next minute, much less past the war. I can't even imagine being part of that - seeing all of that - and not wanting to reach out to someone for comfort... to be reminded of life and love, even if it's temporary. I do think that Frank hoped that Claire had an indiscretion or two of her own, so that he could ease his conscience. But I do believe that Frank intended to forgive and forget anything that Claire had done, as he hoped that she would do for him. The first book, Outlander, seems to bear that out. Even if his choice of pursuits on their second honeymoon was a bit selfish on his part, he did spend time with her... and he hoped they'd make a baby or two.

I think knowing that Frank had affairs during the war made it easier to blame him/hate him for what he did later. But the two aren't necessarily connected. And IMO, Claire and Frank were well matched, sexually; her love language (and Jamie's) seems to be physical touch. Who's to say that Frank's love language wasn't/isn't touch, too? Which would make sense. He'd want to experience love through touch.

(view spoiler)[Claire realized when she returned that she could never love Frank as she did Jamie. So, in a way, Frank sought love and comfort where he could. Was it right? Then again, was it right for Claire to withhold her love and comfort from Frank - especially for a man who was long dead upon her return? By staying legally married to Frank, Claire also had the obligation (according to the Catholic Church) to Frank - her body was to be his. While we know they did sleep together, I'm guessing it wasn't often. Because every time, Claire would feel as if she was cheating on Jamie.

I don't condone Frank's affairs, but in hindsight, I can understand them. In many ways, Frank felt like *he* was the most injured one. He lost his wife in almost every way, but especially her heart, when Claire stumbled through the stones. Just because her body returned didn't mean her heart or soul did. And Frank had to deal with a very incredible story and the ghost of Jamie for the rest of his life.... (hide spoiler)]

It's easy to be black-and-white about Frank, and I'd like to be. But the reality is that Frank suffered as much or more than Claire or Jamie in the matters of the heart. And he had to have some love for Claire - to stay by her and with her, despite and in spite of it all.

I do think that's why Diana G keeps Frank in Claire's thoughts throughout the books - not just in the early ones, but always. And I do think that's why Claire keeps her gold wedding band from Frank; despite everything, Claire knows she owes Frank a lot - that he gave up a lot to be with her.

Yeah, I agree. At that point she was definitely still trying to get home. And that's why when he found out he felt so awful, because he knew it too.

I liked how Claire said that she'd felt lots of lust for other men over the years, but after ignoring it it would just go away. She was forced to giving into it with Jamie.

I usually try to explain that marrying Jamie was the only thing she could do to keep herself out of BJR's hands. She literally had no other choices.

Wendy --
While I agree with all that you've said, I have to perhaps disagree with you when you stated that Claire was forced into giving (lust?) into it with Jamie. I don't think she was forced in any way. Forced to marry? yes. Forced to carry through with her lust? I don't think so. She may not have wanted to admit to herself that she wanted Jamie just as much as he wanted her.

That make sense? I tend to rattle on sometimes.

Yeah, but there was the whole "proof of consummation" to contend with. She did not marry him because she had the hots for him, and she admitted that after the first time it wasn't so much about obligation, either. Claire, though nominally Catholic, wasn't religious and made mention of having other lovers before Frank. Father whatshisname at the abbey pretty much absolved her of the sin of adultery. A technicality, perhaps, but valid in the eyes of the Holy Church. She did show, I think, "appropriate" disdain at the idea of marrying again... In the same chapel, no less! There was no moral ambiguity, it was very much a needed resolution to the threat on her life.

Mmmm, after the first time, I'd agree with you. But remember Dougal had men posted out of their wedding chamber because he said that there was no way he was going to leave room for them to say the marriage wasn't real. Yes, Jamie said that they could say they did it, because they were he only ones who knew the truth. Though they both knew that it needed to be done to really keep her safe. So, I can see how Claire thought she had no choice..... The FIRST time, hahaha.

Wow, you ladies all have strong opinions. It's so much fun to read them. I think this is what make DG's books so amazing. We FEEL so much about the characters.

Plainly stated, Frank was a good, but imperfect man. Just as Claire is a good, but imperfect woman.

I want to start reading the series again before MOBY comes out!

Lori McD wrote: "I never quite knew what to do or feel about Frank... Regardless of his ancestors, Frank isn't BJR. [spoilers removed]

If not for the events that took Claire to the past, it's difficult to say whet..."

Hahaha, Sounds like we had the same opinion, pretty much.

Jen, Sinatra fan wrote: "Wow, you ladies all have strong opinions. It's so much fun to read them. I think this is what make DG's books so amazing. We FEEL so much about the characters.

Plainly stated, Frank was a good, b..."

I know! I love that too. :)

I hope that we all know that despite our differing opinions, it's awesome to be able to sit and break it all down like this and still all get along.

Exactly! I've been DYING to discuss the books with people. My book club is really more of a traveling cocktail party and though the women are great ladies, they just didn't get into the finer points and I was frustrated. There is just so much there...

Exactly! :)

It's like a cake. There are so many layers!!! I don't think we could ever run out of things to discuss. :)

In Voyager, (view spoiler)[when he told Claire (after she finally threw all of his mistresses in his face) "You might have behaved as if it mattered to you".
She said it had, he replied "Not enough". (hide spoiler)]
That was brutal. It was true, but harsh and sad and pretty much sums up her "absentee wife" position, at least in Frank's eyes. She couldn't give him more and he knew it and STILL stayed. I do feel for the guy.

That's a very good point, Courtney. Especially when you compare that to Claire's reaction in Outlander when he made the 'we were apart a long time and I'd forgive you' speech. Claire was upset and jealous at just the idea of cheating. So it's definitely a big change.

I just think that it's not so black and white when you put yourself in Franks's shoes.

(Please remember to mark spoilers. I know it's hard, I forget too, but if it's past Outlander we can't assume everyone in the group has read them all.)

Sorry!!! Y'all got me all carried away... ;)

Hahaha! There's no problem with that!

the other courtney wrote: "She couldn't give him more and he knew it and STILL stayed."

Wasn't this more a societal/religious thing, though, at that time? In the 60s, it still wasn't common for people to divorce, especially when they were Catholic. I think it started to become more common in the 80s, but isn't that around the time he died? I guess that's why I never really felt like Frank had a choice in taking Claire back, pregnant and all. She was found, alive, and they were still married in the eyes of the church. I don't think he realized at that point (view spoiler)[that he couldn't have children (hide spoiler)] so I don't think that was a factor. Maybe I'm not giving Frank enough credit, and I do believe he loved Claire, though not in the all-consuming way Claire and Jamie loved each other, I just didn't see his staying with her as altruistic. I saw it as obligation.

And yeah... it's funny we're talking about these people as if they're real. Just goes to show what great characters Ms. Gabaldon has created.

They were in Europe at the time - not sure how accepted divorce was there at that time, but I assume the Catholic Church (view spoiler)[would allow an annulment since she had disappeared and was pregnant with another man's child. Not to mention that the doctors thought she was batshit crazy. Also, She did tell him to leave her and it was implied that he considered it - he wouldn't because he wasn't a "cad" and couldn't imagine leaving her, pregnant, to fend for herself. (hide spoiler)]

It's funny, when my sister-in-law talk about the books we always mention characters as if we knew them. It's never "when this or that happened in the story" it's "OMG, can you BELIEVE that ass Bonnet? He's such a $&%£!!"

Heather in FL wrote: "the other courtney wrote: "She couldn't give him more and he knew it and STILL stayed."

Wasn't this more a societal/religious thing, though, at that time? In the 60s, it still wasn't common for pe..."

AND, while Claire and Frank were both Catholic nominally, Claire admitted that she really wasn't really a practicing Catholic. I would imagine Frank was the same, because otherwise I feel that she would have spent more time in the church.

I'm not sure that either of them would have bothered to ask the Church for permission.

Oh yeah, sure. Okay, I get that.

I just meant that I'm not sure that church doctrine would even have been in their minds at the time.

Initially I did hate Frank, but now that I'm farther in the series, I don't so much hate him as I don't like him for Claire. And not just because I prefer Jamie. ;)

One of my favorite quotes from the book about Claire and Frank's relationship is in Outlander and it's I didn't notice it until I re-read it after Dragonfly and had a bit more of Frank's story.

It's at the end of Chapter 23 (page 381 in my eBook). After Jamie and Claire return to Leoch there's a bit of drama and they have some exceptionally carnal make-up sex. Afterwords Jamie says "I am your master... and you're mine. Seems I canna possess your soul without losing my own." Claire doesn't respond aloud, but her inner dialogue is "You're too quick by half, lad. ... Frank never did find that out."

I don't think Frank and Claire would have had an overly happy marriage without Jamie intervening. Claire is independent, strong and progressive for her time while Frank is more traditional. Frank doesn't strictly approve of Claire going to medical school and Claire is fairly disinterested in Frank's historical research. There's also the incident with the Bainbridge's that leads me to think that Frank is rather embarrassed by Claire's lack of social filter. Add to that the fact that their marriage would be childless. They could have co-existed and had a life, sure, but I don't think either one of them would ever be truly happy and satisfied with one another.

I'm not sure what face adultery would have taken in their relationship without Jamie's involvement, but I've always had the feeling that Frank was unfaithful during the war and was looking to assuage his guilt by confronting Claire about being unfaithful.

I did come to have a sort of respect for Frank after Bree is introduced to the story. He puts a lot of personal feelings aside to be a good father for Bree and makes a point to leave a trail of breadcrumbs for Claire to follow when he finds out that Jamie didn't die. He's not all bad and I think he does the best he can with the hand dealt him.

Well put, Vicky. You touched on some very important points.

I agree with you Vicky.

Just a few thoughts I had while reading your post, lol. Because it always sparks further conversation...

I'm not sure that I think Claire and Frank would have had an unhappy marriage, though. I think Claire could have been content with Frank. I think it was the passionate consuming relationship with Jamie that put everything in perspective. If Claire had never met Jamie and felt how she COULD feel, she may have been happy enough to live her entire life with Frank. In the beginning of Outlander it read like she FELT happy. She just learned the difference between loving a man, and the ‘can't breathe without him around’ love she had for Jamie.

Also, I'm not sure that Claire would have decided to go to medical school if she hadn't gone through what she did in the 18th century. She says in Dragonfly... or maybe Voyager... that she had lived her life as a doctor with Jamie, and that she couldn't go back. So, I think she herself was irrevocably changed by her time in 18th century Scotland. And this was why she wanted to be more.

I think that had she never gone back in time she would have been content being Frank's wife and not a doctor. Though, I'm not sure how the children thing would have played out. Maybe in the end she would have finally convinced him to do adoption.

Also good points, Wendy! I am so brain dead today that all I can do is shout, "Here! Here!" :)

Yes and ditto :) My mom always told me that women evolve by nature, (most) men tend to stay at whatever evolutionary age they hit their peak. In my experience, it's somewhere around 13 ;) Claire did change and though Frank was not at fault, it completely altered their dynamic.

Vicky, I think you're right on. I don't think Claire and Frank would have stayed together if she'd never gone through the stones. I really think they would have drifted apart and eventually divorced... childless and unhappy. I do think they loved one another, but it wasn't enough. And that's why, in the weirdest of ways, it was, IMO, Jamie who kept them together and kept any love between them. Because Claire tried for Bree's sake, which was for Jamie. And Frank had a child to love and protect, even if he knew that she wasn't his biological child. Sticking with Claire might have been initially to save face or whatever, but Frank had to have felt something more than just superficial love to stay with Claire, even knowing that she had completely given her heart and soul to another man - a man that Frank would never know or meet.

It's true, Lori, Jamie was the glue that kept them together (view spoiler)[until Bree was of age. (hide spoiler)]

Random thought of the day: I think there is a tendency to group characters into "good" and "evil". Not deliberately, but I suppose it's a byproduct of trying to delineate the rightful winners in any conflict. Poor Frank, simply by virtue of not being Jaime, gets tagged as the bad guy even though (philandering aside) he's not really such a horrid person. Even BJR has a tiny shred of something not entirely sociopathic and stake-through-his-heart-worthy. These characters are brilliant for that reason. Just when you are ready to haul out the pitchforks and torches, you catch a glimpse of their humanity. The good guys are flawed and the bad guys are realistic and nothing is simple or contrived.

Yup... not Jamie = bad. :-) Just kidding. I don't think Frank is evil. Shades of gray. :-) BJR... I think his *only* saving grace was how he made sure his brother was cared for. I'm not sure we read anything else redeeming about him.

Yeah, that was the only thing about BJR that made me think "Ok. So you have ONE redeeming quality. Jerk." Frank did the best he could under the circumstances. A lesser man would have either had her committed to a looney bin or simply walked away.

LOL, Yep, that was the only time I felt anything other than hatred for BJR.

the other courtney wrote: "Yeah, that was the only thing about BJR that made me think "Ok. So you have ONE redeeming quality. Jerk." Frank did the best he could under the circumstances. A lesser man would have either had her..."

Lol, other courtney! That's exactly what all of us thought. His ONE redeeming quality was his love for his brother.

No way is Frank a bad man. His love for Bree warms my heart. He's flawed just like the rest of the characters. Except Jamie. He has no flaws. ;)

It would be interesting to read a novella or snippet from Frank's POV.

Oh yeah, that would be awesome!

I wonder why she's never done it--yet?

I'd love to have a story that was Frank-centered!