The Malazan Fallen discussion

There were dark surprises that day.

The Year of the Gathering
Koralb

And we have the Second Gathering of the T’lan Imass – 300000 years from the initial ritual of Tellan. The T’lan Imass beg Silverfox to be released from the war – she has the power to release them to oblivion.
‘ They in truth seek to become dust. Had they eyes, Kruppe would see the truth no plainer writ. The T’lan Imass wish oblivion.’
And she says No!

And we learn a bit more about the Imass.
We are introduced to the Imass Bonecasters including Olar Ethil who turns out to be our undead Dragon bonecaster who we first encountered last book and who also travelled through the Mhybe’s dreams.

We also learn the Imas are split into six armies. Only two are present at this gathering. Namely Kron T’lan Imass, and Logros T’lan Imass. The others are called Bentract, Ifayle, Kerluhm and Orsham. Of the four missing armies, 3 are presumed to be no more – casualties of the Jaghut war, while one is trapped in the Warren of Chaos on Jacaruku (Kallor’s former continent).

Logros T’lan Imass is also missing most of it’s bonecasters who have been sent on a mission to hunt renegades. If we remember back to last book, Heboric and crew encounter a group of Logros T’lan Imass on board the Silanda who inform them they are hunting renegade kin. I wonder who these renegades are. I can’t remember from the first read.

An interesting aside here – I notice the T’lan Imass on the Silanda assume the crew is in service to the “Chained one.”
‘Stand aside, Servant of the Chained One, we have come for our kin, and for the Tiste Edur.’
Perhaps Heboric has come in contact with the crippled god after all – perhaps the CG is using Chaos.

Back to this book – we have had vague references earlier in the book to The First Throne of the T’lan Imass. It was empty and guarded by the Imass until it found a worthy occupant who would then command all the T’lan –
‘Summoner, the First Throne found a worthy occupant. Logros was commanded so by the occupant.’
‘An occupant? Who?’
‘A mortal known then as Kellanved, Emperor of Malaz.’


And so we learn a lot of the secret to the initial success of the Malazan Empire. With an undead army at his command Kellanved (now Shadowthrone) was unstoppable. Until he ascended and vacated the throne – but still retained it in his possession.

‘He no longer occupies it, Summoner, yet he has not yielded it.’
‘What does that mean? Ah, because the Emperor didn’t die, did he?’
Olar Ethil nodded. ‘Kellanved did not die. He ascended, and has taken the Throne of Shadow. Had he died in truth, the First Throne would be unoccupied once more. He has not, so it is not. We are at an impasse.’

So the Imass have an empty throne again, and are no longer commanded by the Malazan Empire – Yet there is no succession because Kellanved still has the throne in his keeping.


So, in the absence any known Jaghut and with no occupant on the throne a schism arose, some of the clans have returned to Empire’s purpose and then there are these renegades who use the Chaos Warren to escape

‘No, Summoner. The renegades have found another path, which as yet remains hidden from us. They have, on occasion, employed the Warren of Chaos in their flight.’


In the meantime the Malazan army rout the remaining Tenescowri and execute the Sorceresses “The Women of the Dead Seed,(note they use the warren of Chaos in service to the Crippled God)

‘Those women – they were not defenceless. The power they drew on came from the Warren of Chaos itself....”

Anaster is captured – and it seems he is aware that Itkovian wants him. We also find out that there are two parts to him – his real self, and the influence that controls him against his will.

‘A soldier’s face,’ Anomander Rake said. He slowly faced westward. ‘From the city. From Capustan.’ He turned back to Anaster. ‘He is still there, isn’t
he?
His real self wants to be damned for his crimes – much like Rath’Fener did in the end. But the Shield Anvil is waiting to embrace him.


And then we have that weird dream where the Mhybe leaves her dream and somehow ends up in Toc’s mind where he has, with the Wolf god’s help, created his own dream world to protect his own mind. Toc, in his distress thinks he is talking to the Seer who he assumes is trying to invade his “safe place.”

Toc has finally discovered he is possessed by the wolf of winter

Do you know, I imagine seeing my own face, as if in a mirror.
‘But it’s the wrong eye – the wrong eye staring back at me. And worse, it’s not even human...

...The face I see before me, Seer, it is winter’s face. A wolf’s. A god’s.’


We also learn that the Matron adopted the Jaghut Seer and taught it how to use his warren – before he eventually usurped her and now controls her.

Her children were long dead, entombed in their barrows – for without a mother, they withered and died. She looked to you, then, Seer. Her adopted son. And showed you your power, so that she could use it

And Toc is also aware that the wolf has a mate, and she’s coming

‘Hear that?’ the man asked. ‘That is my mate. She’s coming. I looked for so long. For so long. And now, she’s coming.’


Toc/Togg

David Sven wrote: "I wonder who these renegades are. I can’t remember from the first read."

(view spoiler)[ The renegades are the six Teblor Gods (hide spoiler)]

Really big spoiler, read at own peril: (view spoiler)[ And remember that Olar Ethil is actually Burn. (hide spoiler)]

@Mikeiwo(view spoiler)[thats a big debate on its own when we finally get there - Was she just a raving lunatic, or if not, is she just a fragment/piece of Burn who is herself a piece of a larger entity again (hide spoiler)]

From the Prologue, when Happy Kallor was awaiting Draconus' in his ash pit.

I knew you were coming. Draconus, of Tiam's kin.

Now this;

Silverfox asked, 'What Soletaken shape do you assume, Olar Ethil?'
'When I veer, I am as an undead twin to Tiam, who spawned all dragons.'

That is quite a link, one i missed completely last time. It raises the question of kinship from family or kinship from their soletaken form.

@Mikeiwo, (view spoiler)[ I never brought into that statement from her. There is nothing to suggest it is actually true. Well, I should say, there was nothing that I read that gave me any reason to believe it. She was kind of a skanky bitch, especially at the end, I am really looking forward to tracking her movements in this re-read. (hide spoiler)]

Wait what?

(view spoiler)[ Olar Ethil as Burn? I never got that. Olar is Sechul's mother, Sechul being the half-brother of Errant, and the 2 of them killed Hood's wife, right? This was in FoD, where we also met Burn in her chamber. I recall not liking her much, whereas I liked Burn who seemed wonderfully compassionate. I don't remember the above quote, but never thought of them as the same....hmmm. something else to watch for! (hide spoiler)]

Oh and Fanderly Fanderly is coming!

OK how dumb am I that I never connected Tog/Toc....

@ Lori,
(view spoiler)[ Yep, Olar claims to be Burn in Dust of Dreams. I am Burn the Sleeping Goddess, in whose dreams life flowers unending, even as those dreams twist into nightmares. But she was ranting on to Torrent that she was mother to everything, that all spawned from her, she was mother to all D'ivers and Soletaken and that she also knew the recipe for the Colonels secret chicken recipe.

I never believed her in this speech because she was losing it and ranting and saying she was everything that ever was. (hide spoiler)]

The Mhybe/Silverfox interaction, or lack of, is frustrating.

The whole executing the Tenescowri mages (little old ladies in flowery dresses) was a powerful scene. Especially with the interaction between Whiskyjack and Rake. Some real bro hug stuff going on there. Especially when Whiskyjack realises he had hurt Rake's feelings by assuming Rake was doing the killing as a murder and not to protect Whiskyjack. I had to read that one again. You have to admire Eriksons writing, that is some deep complex feelings they have going on there in a the midst of battles, death and mayhem, the touchy feely side of the scene was much more powerful than the battle. Followed up then by Korlat explaining that the army was hurting with Whiskyjack at what he had to do. Everyone knows what Rakes sword means.

Although, in saying that, Entrance stage right by Rake was pretty impressive as a bad ass dragon.

"she also knew the recipe for the Colonels secret chicken recipe" HAHA!

That scene was so wonderful in every way. The bromance, the thoughts of what war does to people, the realization of Whiskeyjack that he no longer wants to be a part of that altho wondering if he knows anything else. And Rake again - so much self-knowledge and still he goes on because he knows what is necessary.

I'm enjoying reading these chapter summaries and commentary I must say :)

Lee wrote: "From the Prologue, when Happy Kallor was awaiting Draconus' in his ash pit.

I knew you were coming. Draconus, of Tiam's kin.

Now this;

Silverfox asked, 'What Soletaken shape do you assume, Olar..."


That's a good pickup Lee - and an interesting point re kin vs Soletaken

Draconus(a variant of Dragon I'm assuming) is described as kin to Tiam. Tiam being described as the first dragon who spawned all others.

Olar Ethil however is only as an undead twin WHEN in her dragon form. As opposed to an actual twin.


- maybe it's time to revisit some of our dragon lore we have learned so far in the series.


In book one we encounter two types of dragon (or Eleint). A True blooded dragon and soletaken dragons.

The Jaghut Tyrant Raest is attacked by 5 dragons from Moon spawn - Silanah is described as Elder and True Blooded as opposed to soletaken

'Silanah red-wings,' Raest muttered, eyes narrowing. 'Elder-born and true-blooded Tiam, you lead Soletaken, whose blood is alien to this world.

So Silanah is a dragon proper with blood lineage to Tiam. The soletaken are described as having "alien blood" - That's because their true form AND blood is Tiste Andii (themselves from an alien world)

Also Raest use of the word True-blooded is interesting. If he used the word "full-blooded" instead then we might infer that sole-taken dragons are "part-blood" dragons. But using "true-blood" implies the alternative is NOT true-blood or FALSE blood?

Why is that important? Because Rake is also a Tiste Andii sole-taken dragon. When he battles the demon lord in Darujhistan...

'Dragnipurake. And I smell the reek of Tiama in you, Lord. There is more of her in you than Tiste Andii blood.'

Now Rake "reeks" of Tiam(but not Tiam's blood) - but he is still referred to as having Tiste Andii blood.
So Rake is not related to Tiam but I'm thinking they must use some ritual related to Tiam to become soletaken dragons and that they have some of her (smelly) essence - and whatever it is, Rake has an extra dose that invites the comment that he is more Dragon than Tiste Andii.

In this book we then have

Korlat stared at her Lord. Stunned once again, thrown off-balance yet one more time. The Draconian blood within him. He does not think as we do. Is it that blood? Or something else?

So Rake has "Dragon blood," smells like Tiam - but is never described as Tiam's kin - Where then did the "Draconian blood" come from?

Then we have Lee's quote re Draconus

Oh yes, I knew you were coming. Draconus, of Tiam’s kin

And bear in mind that Draconus. Krul and NightChill are brothers and sisters and so by implication related to Tiam.


Ch4 - Draconus, Blood of Tiam!

Does that make him a descendant of Tiam? Or an Ancestor? Or are they just blood relatives.


And the warrens are Krul's body and blood and are represented in "The Deck of Dragons"


More questions to ponder and look out for

Lee wrote: "Some real bro hug stuff going on there. Especially when Whiskyjack realises he had hurt Rake's feelings by assuming Rake was doing the killing as a murder and not to protect Whiskyjack."

Yeah - when it came down to it, somebody had to be the bastard and do the deed - Rake steps up to assume that burden. And it is a burden and he feels it and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Interesting lines of thought there David. I have in the past, thought of Silannah and other True Blood dragons as ancient elders that are solely dragons. Then you have tainted dragons, which are soletaken and d'ivers. True dragons would see them as tainted as they have two forms and not of the true Elder line. So given that, I do not see Tiam's line as True Blood. So Rakes blood is Andii but is tainted by being Elient. We are also taking the word of someone we have only just met. Tiam who spawned all dragons?
We don't know this for sure. Olar Ethil believes it, but is it true? I guess this means this is another area for us to keep a close eye on over the coming books.

Let there be Dragons and more Dragons.

I know this is cheating, but the Glossary has under "Elder Warrens"

Starvald Demelain: the Tiam Warren, the First Warren

(view spoiler)[I had thought Tiam was an Elder Goddess of the Dragons and that Rake became soletaken by drinking her blood (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[ Yes David, that is how I believe you become Elient. By drinking the blood, but that could also be metaphorical, of Tiam. So I have always thought there were true dragons and soletaken dragons, like the Elient. Where a true dragon has 'allowed' other races assume the dragon form (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[ You both have mentioned this before, I never marked anything about drinking blood, looking forward to finding it. I believe the Elient are the true dragons, descended from Tiam, not the Soletaken? But remember those dragons that came out of the Vityr in FoD? Were they the first Dragons, straight from Chaos? I'm thinking they were. (hide spoiler)]

There's more to it that just the execution. Rake uses Dragnipur which imprisons the souls of everyone he executes. WJ objects not so much to the executions, but to the severity of the sentence. He'd rather let these women find Hood's embrace.

I think this is the first time we realize that Dragnipur is not just a powerful sword - it's also an incredible burden to Rake. While WJ realizes that he may have insulted Rake, Rake on the other hand tries to save WJ from sharing the burden of doing the executions.

This reminds me a bit of Ned Stark in A Song of Ice and Fire. He insists that, if there is an execution to be done, that he must do it himself. That way, he will not lightly put anyone to death, knowing that he bears the personal burden of the deed. Here, Erikson makes clear that the "procedures" of justice exist largely to absolve people of that burden.

Here's something I don't actually recall from the first reading, but it looks to me right now that Erikson is setting up an interesting encounter between Mhybe and Itkovian (and of course between Anaster and Itkovian too).

I'll be curious if Silverfox's reasons for not freeing the T'lan Imas are explained, because right not it seems like she's saying no just because she has abandonment issues. I really hope that's not the only reason.

I like that WJ stepped up and did what he felt was right with those casters, saving them from Rake's sword. But he got a lot more Emo about it afterwards than I would have thought.

I liked how Korlat explained to him that his men weren't disgusted at him, but rather sympathetic to what must be done.

To me Whiskeyjack's reaction seems to go with the theme that war dehumanizes, which has been emphasized pretty strongly so far. It's particularly tough for Whiskeyjack because he still has a lot of humanity left. His soldiers sympathize because they're losing their humanity too, and know what it feels like. So he has it both ways (as far as leadership goes, not happiness) - when he's human the soldiers follow him because they admire his humanity, and when he's scarred they follow him because they sympathize with his scars. But it is odd for him to make such a big deal about the Women of the Dead Seed being unarmed, since as Korlat and Rake both pointed out they were stunned but far from defeated.

I don't think WJ realized they were still such a thread, and so it seemed to him slaughter. But I think that, as you said, SE's major theme is retaining humanity, what happens when it's lost, how you keep it in world of horror, the Malazans being exemplary. It's the only answer to nihilism.

David Sven wrote: "And bear in mind that Draconus. Krul and NightChill are brothers and sisters and so by implication related to Tiam."

I'm not convinced that K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill are literal siblings. When they refer to each other as brother and sister in the prologue I took that to be more their language of addressing peers, other Elder Gods; more similar to how priests, monks and nuns use familial terms to refer to each other rather than denoting actual blood kinship.

Chaz wrote: "I'm not convinced that K'rul, Draconus and Nightchill are literal siblings. When they refer to each other as brother and sister in the prologue I took that to be more their language of addressing peers, "

I think you are right here - given I'm now inclined to view some relationships differently than I originally did(MT Spoiler) (view spoiler)[For example the three sisters, Sheltatha, Sukul, Menandore, all claim to be daughters of Tiam - but I'm inclined to view that as a reference to them becoming soletaken by drinking Tiam's blood (hide spoiler)]

FoD spoiler: (view spoiler)[And my theory would be that all of them were Azathanai. We know this for K'rul and Draconus and I assume this for the Sister of Cold Nights as well. Therefore a brother/sister reference could be interpreted that they are siblings in being all Azathanai. (hide spoiler)]

I really liked the scene between WJ and Rake and the burden of "justice".

But simple question: Why couldn't Rake have used a different sword to kill the crazy ladies?

Save Dragnipur for those who deserve it.

DangerBin wrote: "I really liked the scene between WJ and Rake and the burden of "justice".

But simple question: Why couldn't Rake have used a different sword to kill the crazy ladies?

Save Dragnipur for those who..."

That is also what I was thinking. Why does he have to always use Dragnipur? Is it a deal that comes with the sword or just too much of a bother to think about switching?