The Sword and Laser discussion

I was talking to my cousin-in-law (well what do you call your cousin's husband?) about the relationship with denna and kvothe. I hate it. It is a personal thing with me. I used to be like Kvothe in the whole "young idiot male" sort of way. I dated a girl who was like denna. Aloof, makes you rethink the way you view the world, constantly making you wonder if she likes you or if you are nothing to her, and inevitably ran away time and time again. James, my cousin's husband, stated he fell in love with denna. I asked him why. He said, because she a little broken. I hate her because she is flaky and unreliable.
So he has a savior complex, and i've been burned.
How did you guys (and gals) feel about their dynamic.
Stupid? or romantic?

For me it's kind of both. Not sure what that says about me.

I realize it would ruin the dynamic, but for me, I mostly just want to yell at them, "USE YOUR WORDS." But I need to remember that just because it's a huge book doesn't mean that much time has past. And how young they are. I realize I imagine them both as young twenties, but they're teens, really.

Allison wrote: "I realize it would ruin the dynamic, but for me, I mostly just want to yell at them, "USE YOUR WORDS." But I need to remember that just because it's a huge book doesn't mean that much time has pas..."

I have the same issue with the books. I keep aging the characters up and have to remind myself they are still very young.

I would have fallen for a denna at 17. my wife however, is much more of a xena warrior princess. while I bumble behind as joxer the mighty. maybe not that bad, but you get the idea.

I really dislike Denna. Really. She is cruel and does not care who she hurts really. When someone calls it out to Kvoth (sp? sorry) on the issue, he said you would not blame a thunderstorm for being cruel. I wanted to yell "Yeh, but when it storms most idiots would not stand on a hill with a metal rod in their hand either, like you are doing." That whole relationship seems like an unhealthy one. That being said, how PR writes that relationship is pure gold.

Like Nathan said, Rothfuss is a good writer, so I don't really have a problem with it. Sure she can be annoying at times, but that's besides the point for me. What's interesting about her is what she's hiding. Why is she the way she is? Who is she, really? What's the significance of the ring? That along with her relationship with master Ash. She's just a pile of mysteries that Kvothe is infatuated with, and I want to know the truth behind them.

I like Denna. I think she's ultimately a villain, though perhaps unwitting, but I like her. There are so many great characters, though.

@Kevan, you really can't skip the Denna scenes, especially in the second book. You are depriving yourself of key points to the mystery by doing so.

I liked the Denna in the first book, but then my eyes opened and I realised in the second book that I really didn't like her. I see her as one who holds Kvothe back from his greatness!

Sampsom wrote: "I see her as one who holds Kvothe back from his greatness!"

While she contributes, I still think the biggest one holding Kvothe back thus far is Kvothe himself.

I don't like Denna. I read the books about a year ago so my memory may be foggy but she was always so aloof and never seemed to really care about Kvothe - only what she could gain by being with him.

Denna is too important not to love.

She's the train wreck we're waiting to see, the spark that ignites the forest fire, the cough that starts the zombie plague. She's the mistake that everyone but Kvothe can see coming.

For what it's worth, I think that she genuinely likes Kvothe. Maybe not likes... admires might be more accurate. I could imagine him representing everything that she wants to be: clever, renowned, talented, and independent. Far from holding Kvothe back, she'll drive him on toward grander and more terrible things as she tries to make herself deserving of him, in her own eyes.

I know that I'm reading these books wanting to know how Kvothe ended up as a nobody innkeeper in a backwater town with hardly a lick of power to his name. Maybe even why.

And, as far as why's go, Denna seems great... but almost too obvious. I mean, we know that she's involved in some heavy stuff, that she's a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in the fondest hopes of young Kvothe's heart... but I hope that she's a red herring. I would dearly love to see the mysterious woman the Chronicler alluded to turn out to be Auri or someone similarly innocent.

Time will tell.

I will say that "sometime around midnight" by airborne toxic event plays when I think of their relationship.

I think when you consider her history/environment her actions mostly make sense. Kvothe had that scene where he realizes her plight. Her options are limited. And she's too free-spirited to do what other most other girls do (settle down with a husband for protection).

Early on, Kvothe simply can't give her what she needs. Yeah, we want them to throw caution to the wind, forget money, and just run off with each other. But this is a different world.

Now, later when Kvothe returns to university. I'm not sure about how that plays out.

@Sky She is too important not to have strong feelings about, love or not.

The way I look at it, Kvothe is intelligent and clever, but complexly lacks common sense's older brother, wisdom, meaning knowing where you are in life and what to do when.

Denna, as you imply, is the embodiment of this. And this is why I strongly dislike her, because I hate that about Kvothe and want to yell at the book every time he is weak because of his strengths. I want to read more about her, though because PR does such a good job getting me to care enough about her to dislike her so much, if that makes any sense.

BTW, if Kvothe had a lick of sense (which he does not) he would have got with Fela (intelligent, beautiful, someone who actually cares if they hurt you and is there for you). And yes, I am a member of team Fela.

Nathan wrote: "@Sky She is too important not to have strong feelings about, love or not.

The way I look at it, Kvothe is intelligent and clever, but complexly lacks common sense's older brother, wisdom, meaning ..."

Yeah, Fela seems like the right choice in the 4C world. Or that busty red head from that one time.

4c world?

I'll respect your right to just feel strongly about her one way or the other, but here's my rationale for loving her:

I don't want to read a story about how everything goes right.

Fela is awesome. So are Devi and Mola and the ninjas and all the lovely ladies that Kvothe seems to get involved with. And yes, Kvothe should have seen that every last one of them was the girl for him... but that would have been too easy. Denna is the most obvious path toward tragedy. We hate her for her role. We love her for the story.

At least, that's how I see it. Is there a team for Devi, though? I'm a fan of spunk.

Oh, and I'm imagining that 4C world = Four Corners world, where the books are set.

Tastykimchi wrote: "4c world?"

What Sky said. The four corners.

I Dont really mind Denna, i just Dont understand the dinámic. It seems to me that if you love someone, go to then but they just slap you in te face everytime, you end up loosing interest in them, but this doesnt seem to happen in these books.
I can totally relate this to Dickens "Great expectations" sort of love, but still.
BEGIN UNSUSTAINED RANT:
Do you think that maybe Denna is helping the chandrians(playing Kvothe on the way) but ends up falling in love with him thats why she runs away(as not to hurt him)
END RANT:
but that would be too predictable and thats not like Patrick Rothfuss.

Anyhow, Elodin is my favorite character, so as long as hes there i can over look close to anything, including this idiotic sort of love

Favourite character? So far, the little Adem kid, and demon Devi. Elodin is also great, I agree.

"Kvothe is crap at Interesting Fact."

Mopey innkeeper Kote is my least favourite, if I'm honest.

Nathan wrote: "@Sky She is too important not to have strong feelings about, love or not.

The way I look at it, Kvothe is intelligent and clever, but complexly lacks common sense's older brother, wisdom, meaning ..."

Not an option. People would have jumped to the wrong conclusion if Kvothe had started going out with a Fela ... ;-)

Hmmm, it simply reminded me of past relationships with me playing the part of Kvothe. I mean come on, most males find themselves in a relationship like this at some point. It's part of growing up.

I like Denna. I think she and Kvothe are very similar.

Manda wrote: "I like Denna. I think she and Kvothe are very similar."

Except Kvothe cares about people and Denna does not.

I never really liked Denna until I realized that she is the wind. Now I neither like nor dislike her. She just is.

I have to say I enjoyed reading about the Kvothe/Denna relationship. Not because it was an adorable, healthy relationship, but because it was messy and broken and confusing. It was also very well written and totally understandable. I felt like I could completely empathize with the characters. Though I will admit that the thoughts/behavior patterns seemed a bit too adult-like for the teenaged characters, but, on the other hand, they both clearly suffered traumatic events at a young age, which would force them to grow up more quickly.

I totally agree that Denna is a broken person/train wreck waiting to happen. We all know it will end in tears, but we all want to see how and why. As for her behaviors up to this point, I think it is pretty clear that she has been hurt in the past, and now runs away and hurts others to prevent them from hurting her first. She uses people to get ahead, and I can totally understand why that is a turn off for a lot of readers. But I think she genuinely likes Kvothe. Which is why she won't let him get really close to her - she doesn't want to give him the opportunity to hurt her. And she doesn't use him the way she uses other men. She won't really let him help her. Plus I am sure she feels like she is unworthy of someone who clearly is on a trajectory to greatness (between his music, the university, and his time with the Maer, it is pretty obvious he has the skills to be whatever he wants to be). But it also makes her happy to be around him, so they dance around each other and string things along. We don't get to read her internal conflict, but I think it is fairly evident.

As for Kvothe, well, he obviously has a bit of a hero complex (he helps Auri when he barely has means to help himself, rescuing Fela from the fire, he wants to kill the Chandrian, etc.), though I suppose you wouldn't really expect much else from someone who grew up memorizing all the great stories, plays, and songs of their civilization. Denna is clearly a damsel in distress, and Kvothe wants to help her. I think he fell in love with her before he really knew anything about her, but I think her problems and behavior patterns only add to the appeal.

So I guess I can understand why people don't like Denna. I am sure if I met her in real life I wouldn't like her either. But I do enjoy reading about her. Maybe because some things hit a bit too close to home. I think this is the sort of relationship I would have hated reading about ten years ago, before life experience taught me better (I had to read Wuthering Heights in high school and hated it because all of the characters were acting like stupid ninnies, but I think if I re-read it now I might actually enjoy it, or at least have a bit more compassion for the characters). At this point in my life I can really feel for these characters. So I can understand why there is a divide over this relationship. But I am really looking forward to reading about its conclusion in the next volume.

Carmen wrote: "... BEGIN UNSUSTAINED RANT:
Do you think that maybe Denna is helping the chandrians(playing Kvothe on the way) but ends up falling in love with him thats why she runs away(as not to hurt him)
END RANT:
but that would be too predictable and thats not like Patrick Rothfuss...."


I have a pet theory that Mr. Ash = Cinder. It feels almost too much like a red herring, but then again...

Tsedai wrote: "I have a pet theory that Mr. Ash = Cinder. It feels almost too much like a red herring, but then again... "

That was my first thought. And it was solidified in WMF when Denna is looking to sing a positive history on the Chandrian.

Nathan wrote: "Manda wrote: "I like Denna. I think she and Kvothe are very similar."

Except Kvothe cares about people and Denna does not."

I disagree. With Denna, we don't have the benefit of a first person narrative but some of her actions clearly show she cares for the people around her.

When her friend's mother is sick, Denna pawns her jewelry so he can go home to see her.

In Severen, Denna defends the girl in the alley, even though the girl is a stranger to her and she had to put herself in danger to help her.

Under similar circumstances in Tarbean, Kvothe stands by while a young boy is beaten and raped. Granted, the boy has more than one attacker in that circumstance but we are privy to Kvothe's thoughts. He is not only uncertain he will be able to save the boy; he is afraid to put himself and his meager possessions at risk.

I am not criticizing Kvothe here. I think he is an awesome character who genuinely wants to help people. I am merely pointing out that the situation is not so black and white as you are making it out to be.

@Manda The examples you Kvothe helps when he can and he cannot he does not. In the alley, Kvothe could not have stopped what was going on.

Denna, on the other hand, manipulates others, inflicting emotional harm on people to get money out of them on a day to day basis.

So yes, she will occasionally care, but the broad arch of her life is one of doing bad to others and not really caring about it.

Hi Nathan. I originally posted this in another thread so this is a repost.

I love Denna and I'll tell you why. I am extremely invested in Kvothe and she is right for him.

It's true that Denna is not a paragon of morality. She's a con artist. A clever, charming con artist. But that's really not so far off from Kvothe, is it? How many times do we see him play a part in order to work a situation to his advantage? In fact, Denna is one of the few people who sees through his bullshit and calls him out on it.

Denna "trades on her charm" in order to survive and Kvothe can relate to that. In turn, there are many things about Kvothe she understands without explanation. He doesn't talk about his poverty, even to Wil and Sim, because their idea of being poor is not having enough money for luxuries but he doesn't have to say anything to Denna. She knows because she has been there. The signs of hardship are obvious to her.

Denna also shares his deep emotional connection to music. Remember the scene where Kvothe plays Josn's lute on the way to the University and it "felt like three years Waterside in Tarbean with a hollowness inside you and hands that ached from the bitter cold"? Kvothe reveals the innermost parts of himself through music and I think it is significant Denna hears him play that night. It grants her an understanding of Kvothe that goes beyond his persona at the University. She is one of the only people who ever sees his vulnerability.

I don't think it is a coincidence that Denna runs into Kvothe at the Eolian much later. I think she was seeking him out. Is it really so hard to believe she doesn't know how he feels about her? He stands her up the first time he asks her out and she sees him with Fela the following day. When she invites him to dinner, he stands her up again. I don't think she is trying to lead him on by inviting him along when she is out with men. Denna likes Kvothe but she is rarely by herself so she takes his company as it comes.

As for everyone thinking she is a big slut, I am not convinced. Either way, it's a huge double standard because Kvothe really is a big slut! He just makes it sound awesome and poetic.

“Each woman is like an instrument, waiting to be learned, loved, and finely played, to have at last her own true music made.

Some might take offense at this way of seeing things, not understanding how a trouper views his music. They might think I degrade women. They might consider me callous, or boorish, or crude.

But those people do not understand love, or music, or me.”

Here ends my impassioned defense of Denna. If she dies in the third book, I will cry buckets.

@Manda I never said she was a slut. Infect, as far as the reader knows, there is no evidence she sleeps with any of her targets.

Show me how Kvothe cons money or encourages other people to love him under false pretenses so he can make money off that relationship.

The difference is that Kvothe, for the most part, finds himself in a hard situation and turns it to his advantage, while Denna creates the situations she then takes advantage of.

Hey Nathan- That was a repost and all the stuff about Denna being a slut was a response to things people were saying on that particular thread. Sorry for the misunderstanding there. :)

But I disagree that Denna encourages people to love her under false pretenses. I think she genuinely cares for many of the people she dates. There is textual evidence for this but I don't have my book in front of me right now. I'll try to post some quotes later on tonight.

David Sven wrote: "That was my first thought. And it was solidified in WMF when Denna is looking to sing a positive history on the Chandrian."

Really? After WMF, I was fairly sure that Bredon was Ash, for the following reasons:

1. He is both white haired, older, and wealthy, matching the initial description Kvothe was given.
2. He vanishes from court at the same time that Denna vanishes from Severen. She later explains that she left because of her patron.
3. He is extremely secretive, to the point of not necessarily even giving Kvothe his real name.
4. Denna mentions that Kvothe may have met her patron in court.
5. He is specifically mentioned as having a cane.

Of course, I've heard that the main argument against Bredon is that Patrick Rothfuss mentioned that the character was not in early drafts of WMF. So take that as you will.

However, the flippancy with which the rumors of Bredon's "pagan rituals" are treated makes me think that there's much, much more to them than meets the eye. Maybe he's in league with the Chandrian, or one of them himself. Maybe he's one of the Amyr. But I'm pretty confidant that, as of now, he's the best fit for Ash.

Sky wrote: "Really? After WMF, I was fairly sure that Bredon was Ash, for the following reasons:"


Ah, very interesting theory. It never occurred to me but now you mention it...

Sky wrote: "David Sven wrote: "That was my first thought. And it was solidified in WMF when Denna is looking to sing a positive history on the Chandrian."

Really? After WMF, I was fairly sure that Bredon was ..."

I like the Bredon/Ash theory, after WMF I think he very much fits the description, and I totally agree that the "pagan rituals" hint at him being something more than just a man of the court. It would be interesting if he were involved with the Amyr or the Chandrian. I don't know, somehow his "beautiful game" comments make me feel like he knows a lot more about what is going on than he lets on, and that he is toying with Kvothe while he is in Severen. Either way I still think that Denna's patron is involved with the Chandrian somehow.

I really hope Bredon doesn't turn out to be sinister. You do make a good argument though Sky. Jerk! O.o

@Nathan- Here's the quote I wanted.

"She went through them like a pen through wet paper. She left them, disappointed. Or, frustrated, they abandoned her, leaving her heartsore, moved to sadness but never as far as tears."

To me, this does not sound like a cold and calculating woman. Does she accept gifts from men? Absolutely. Does she pawn these gifts and live off the money? Yep, she does. But I don't think that's the only reason she dates men. Never once in the book does Rothfuss say, “She left him because the money ran out.” Denna leaves men because they want more, either sexually or emotionally, than she is willing to give.

I'm not saying Denna's behavior is always admirable. She makes fun of the men she dates to Kvothe and that makes it seem like she doesn't care for them. But I think she does that to show Kvothe it's not serious, that none of them could take his place in her life. She also skips out on her bill at the inn about ten million times. Seriously, shouldn't the inns in Imre be wise to her by now? My point is that Kvothe engages in less than admirable behavior quite often himself.

“I discovered the proper way to slit a purse and pick a pocket.”

“My days were spent looking for things to steal and ways to entertain myself.”

He's not above trying to con people. Remember how he posed as a spoiled nobleman's son and bullied that tailor into selling him a suit of clothes for less than their value? Remember how he got such a good deal on his lute? He lied to the pawnbroker and told him the neck was cracked.

And when it comes to hurting people, I don't ever recall Denna dousing someone in cheap liquor and lighting them on fire.

Of course, Kvothe has reasons for doing the things he does. We know his reasons because we get to see inside his head. We don't have that luxury with Denna.

If you guys are interested in speculation about Denna's patron, you should check out the Rothfussians group. There's lots of good debate about it over there. Cinder and Bredon are the two most popular theories but there's support for Maer Alveron as Denna's patron and others as well. It's good stuff.

Meghan wrote: "I never really liked Denna until I realized that she is the wind. Now I neither like nor dislike her. She just is."

This is a GREAT way of looking at her! Kvothe can't even learn her name!

Manda wrote: "If you guys are interested in speculation about Denna's patron, you should check out the Rothfussians group. There's lots of good debate about it over there. Cinder and Bredon are the two most popu..."

Can't be the Maer (view spoiler)[He could barely walk when her patron beat her up in Vintas (her "horse fall"). May have been hovering on the edge of death right then. And she also mentions what a good dancer he is... the Maer wasn't doing any dancing until Kvothe cured his lead poisoning. (hide spoiler)]

Sky wrote: "David Sven wrote: "That was my first thought. And it was solidified in WMF when Denna is looking to sing a positive history on the Chandrian."

Really? After WMF, I was fairly sure that Bredon was ..."

(view spoiler)[Bredon (place or perhaps family name) is also in Yll/Yllish, isn't it? I'm surmising that because of Kvothe mentioning how Yllish women drink Bredon beer during pregnancy, and we know Denna learns Yllish knots from her patron.

As far as Bredon himself, he both fits and does not fit the bill. Bredon claims he has been learning to dance when he meets Kvothe the first time, and Denna has been dancing with her patron. But she claims her patron is a very good dancer, and I do not think she gives unearned praise. (hide spoiler)]

Darren wrote: "Manda wrote: "If you guys are interested in speculation about Denna's patron, you should check out the Rothfussians group. There's lots of good debate about it over there. Cinder and Bredon are the..."

The Maer's not my personal choice for Master Ash but someone else pointed out an interesting detail to me. Denna only wears blue and white after her patronage agreement. The Maer's colors. He also carries a cane, is extremely secretive, and has an interest in the Amyr. There were other points made as well but I don't remember them off the top of my head.

@Darren-

(view spoiler)[ Remember their conversation about inherent vs. granted power? Maybe he had one of his lackeys beat her while he was feeling ill. And the Maer mentions he'd been well for almost a year prior to his current illness so dancing is not totally out. (hide spoiler)]

Manda wrote: "Darren wrote: "Manda wrote: "If you guys are interested in speculation about Denna's patron, you should check out the Rothfussians group. There's lots of good debate about it over there. Cinder and..."

Remember what the tree said? He beats her with his cane. . .

Manda wrote: "@Darren-

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[The Maer's cane was necessitated by his sickness. He finds the use of it unseemly, not fashionable.

As far as Denna's outfits, the colour of them is NOT always mentioned. Glancing through the section at the Maer's court, I looked at three instances of Denna and Kvothe together there, and not once did it mention what colours she was wearing. Only mentioned she was wearing at all once of the three, when Kvothe eavesdrops on her helping out that girl decide whether to go home or not.

Just read a fourth. Again no colours mentioned. Then a fifth, the night they sneak into the Maer's gardens... her outfit is mentioned ("a skirt, not a complicated dress of the sort a noblewoman would wear") but no colours mentioned, despite her just having come from a meeting with her patron.

She also says, in the gardens:
"So that's the Maer... He's shorter than I imagined."

So I'm going to call bs on that. It's not an interesting detail. It's made up. Her ring is blue and white, but was ever so, or at least since she appears in the story, on the road from Tarbean.

(hide spoiler)]

Again, Maer Alveron=Master Ash is not my theory. I just wanted to point interested folks over to another space with some good debate. I actually argued against the Maer Alveron theory when it first came up because Denna meets her patron in the Eolian and I felt he would have been recognized there.

That said, Denna's patron did not begin beating her with his cane until Kvothe's time in the Fae. After the Maer made his recovery.

"Two days ago he used his walking stick. That was new. Welts the size of your thumb under her clothes."

Israel wrote: "As a side note, Jo Walton did a very in depth read through of the two Kingkiller books that are out over on the Tor site. Some of the connections she saw just blew me away."

Thanks for the reminder. I've been meaning to check that out!

Manda wrote: "Again, Maer Alveron=Master Ash is not my theory. I just wanted to point interested folks over to another space with some good debate. I actually argued against the Maer Alveron theory when it first..."

You're arguing the merits of the theory. It's hard to see any. Maer Alveron travelled unguarded to play a wedding in Trebon?