The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of May 13, 2013 - May 19, 2013, we are reading Chapters Fourteen and Fifteen of Woodrow Wilson: A Biography.

This week's reading assignment is:

WEEK EIGHT: May 13, 2013 - May 19, 2013 (p 285 - 333)
Chapter 14. The Shock of Recognition 15. Second Flood Tide

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

John Milton Cooper Jr.

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS ARE EXTREMELY DENSE SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

TOC and the Syllabus:

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole Thread:

This link for discussion of the book once you are finished:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

John Milton Cooper Jr.

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Fourteen: The Shock of Recognition

On May 7, 1915, the Lusitania was sunk by a German U-boat, killing 128 Americans. Wilson wrote the German response alone, but would not declare war. The German response disappointed Wilson and he composed a second note. Bryan was worried that Wilson was taking a harder line against Germany and resigned. Wilson promoted Robert Lansing, but in reality, Wilson was his own secretary of state. This relationship caused friction for Lansing as he felt he was a clerk, not a secretary of state.

On August 19, the Arabic was sunk with 2 Americans killed. The president was able to get a public promise by Germany not to sink liners without warning.

Wilson was moving toward a preparedness stance, which went against his more conciliatory public statements. He won approval for a $500 million increase in the navy. However, in Congress, there was a growing opposition to preparedness. In December, he went before the public with a series of speeches trying to argue for a military build-up, while remaining neutral, a difficult line.

Wilson and Edith were secretly engaged in the summer of 1915. By October, their engagement was announced and the couple were seen more in public. On December 18, they were married at Edith's home and they honeymooned at the Homestead in Virginia.

Chapter Fifteen: Second Flood Tide

On January 2, 1916, two Americans died when the Germans sunk the Persia. It bought Wilson back to D.C. The Germans apologized for both the Persia and Ancona, while Lansing wanted an apology for the Lusitania, but Wilson stopped him from pushing this too hard.

From January until February, Wilson went on a second speaking tour to persuade people to support a build-up of national defenses. Wilson worked with members of the Military and Naval Affairs committees and got another navy bill passed. The army bill was more difficult. Some members of Congress opposed a larger reserve force in fear of a large standing army. They settled on a larger national guard plan that could be deputized by Wilson in case of war. Secretary of War Garrison resigned over the bill and Newton Baker became the new war secretary.

Wilson waged another congressional battle over banning Americans on armed merchant ships. He was opposed to a resolution on the ban and he got it defeated.

House went to Europe for another peace mission. He became close to Sir Edward Grey and House hoped for some mediation conference. House went beyond his "authority" by discussing Poland, the Ottoman Empire, and less on the league and disarmament.

On March 9, 1916, Pancho Villa attacked the town of Columbus, New Mexico. Wilson sent John Pershing into Mexico with 4,000 troops to find Villa. Pershing never found him and after nearly a year.

On March 24, 1916, the Sussex was attacked. Wilson was able to get a German pledge to limit submarine engagement. Wilson talked to President Taft about a league of nations, while Bryan was pushing for isolation.

In January 1917, Wilson appointed Louis Brandeis to the Supreme Court. It was a hard sell for the Senate as Republicans began to unite under the opposition of more progressive ideas.

It is interesting that Cooper remarks on Wilson's emotional response to Americans dying. First, he was shaken about Mexico and Lusitania.

Do you get the impression his responses affects his policy in some way and how he deals with (i.e. being alone)?

Wilson's Response of Sinking of Lusitania:

Department of State,
Washington, May 13, 1915

To Ambassador Gerard:

Please call on the Minister of Foreign Affairs and after reading to him this communication leave with him a copy.

In view of recent acts of the German authorities in violation of American rights on the high seas which culminated in the torpedoing and sinking of the British steamship Lusitania on May 7, 1915, by which over 100 American citizens lost their lives, it is clearly wise and desirable that the Government of the United States and the Imperial German Government should come to a clear and full understanding as to the grave situation which has resulted.

The sinking of the British passenger steamer Falaba by a German submarine on March 28, through which Leon C. Thrasher, an American citizen, was drowned; the attack on April 28 on the American vessel Cushing by a German aeroplane; the torpedoing on May 1 of the American vessel Gulflight by a German submarine, as a result of which two or more American citizens met their death and, finally, the torpedoing and sinking of the steamship Lusitania, constitute a series of events which the Government of the United States has observed with growing concern, distress, and amazement.

Recalling the humane and enlightened attitude hitherto assumed by the Imperial German Government in matters of international right, and particularly with regard to the freedom of the seas; having learned to recognize the German views and the German influence in the field of international obligation as always engaged upon the side of justice and humanity; and having understood the instructions of the Imperial German Government to its naval commanders to be upon the same plane of human action prescribed by the naval codes of other nations, the Government of the United States was loath to believe -- it cannot now bring itself to believe -- that these acts, so absolutely contrary to the rules, the practices, and the spirit of modern warfare, could have the countenance or sanction of that great Government. It feels it to be its duty, therefore, to address the Imperial German Government concerning them with the utmost frankness and in the earnest hope that it is not mistaken in expecting action on the part of the Imperial German Government which will correct the unfortunate impressions which have been created and vindicate once more the position of that Government with regard to the sacred freedom of the seas.

The Government of the United States has been apprised that the Imperial German Government considered themselves to be obliged by the extraordinary circumstances of the present war and the measures adopted by their adversaries in seeking to cut Germany off from all commerce, to adopt methods of retaliation which go much beyond the ordinary methods of warfare at sea, in the proclamation of a war zone from which they have warned neutral ships to keep away. This Government has already taken occasion to inform the Imperial German Government that it cannot admit the adoption of such measures or such a warning of danger to operate as in any degree an abbreviation of the rights of American shipmasters or of American citizens bound on lawful errands as passengers on merchant ships of belligerent nationality; and that it must hold the Imperial German Government to a strict accountability for any infringement of those rights, intentional or incidental....

The Government of the United States, therefore, desires to call the attention of the Imperial German Government with the utmost earnestness to the fact that the objection to their present method of attack against the trade of their enemies lies in the practical impossibility of employing submarines in the destruction of commerce without disregarding those rules of fairness, reason, justice, and humanity, which all modern opinion regards as imperative.... The Government and the people of the United States look to the Imperial German Government for just, prompt, and enlightened action in this vital matter with the greater confidence because the United States and Germany are bound together not only for special ties of friendship but also by the explicit stipulations of the treaty of 1828 between the United States and the Kingdom of Prussia.

Expressions of regret and offers of reparation in case of the destruction of neutral ships sunk by mistake, while they may satisfy international obligations, if no loss of life results, cannot justify or excuse a practice, the natural and necessary effect of which is to subject neutral nations and neutral persons to new and immeasurable risks.

The Imperial German Government will not expect the Government of the United States to omit any word or any act necessary to the performance of its sacred duty of maintaining the rights of the United States and its citizens and of safeguarding their free exercise and enjoyment.

BRYAN
(Source: http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Wils...)

This is the signature of Sec. of State Bryan at the bottom. Is this the source of the confusion?

I checked the source. Your title said Wilson - but it was through Bryan. Got it.

Yeah, Wilson used Bryan as a vehicle for his own response. It is confusing.

Cooper describes that the German responses to the American protests as haughty and evasive. With a far inferior American military that was on the other side of the Atlantic why would Germany take Wilson seriously?

Were these American protests for domestic consumption? Did Wilson really expect to modify German behavior? I find it hard to believe Wilson thought Germany would notice his protests.

This is part of the story, Jim. What Cooper does not incorporate is the inside discussions German leaders are doing. There is a battle going on about how far to push the submarine warfare and the U.S. response. At one point, a German diplomat talks to the Kaiser about backing off on the subs and he agrees.

But at the end of the day, Germany did what Germany wanted...

Cooper makes a great point about the communications between countries in this time period. It is like a slow tennis match.

Could you image if these sinkings happened today?

The planet would light up with a nuclear glow - scary (:-(

Indeed, a kind of Cuban Missile Crisis all over again.

The time suited Wilson. He could go and be alone and reflect on a answer or response. I think it is much faster and the stakes much higher today.

With all this war baiting activity going on Wilson does find some solace in finalizing his relationship with Edith, so at least he has someone to confide in . . . maybe that was what influenced his decision to support the suffrage movement even though he still believes it's a state issue.

I find this position a little confusing . . . by being given the right to vote . . . that involves state and federal elections . . . so how can he believe it's only a state issue?

I think Wilson was very conscious of the fact that his decisions would result in lives being lost. He was successful in keeping the US out of war with Mexico, which to be honest I didn't even know was happening at that time. It's a good thing he did, because it seems a war with Mexico would have been very unpopular. It hadn't been too long since the last war with Mexico so it was still fairly fresh in collective memory.

But when it came to Germany, he had to walk a fine line. He had to make Germany back off without using American troops. His strategy worked for the time being, but I as I think Cooper said he got lucky.

Tomerobber, I agree that it sounds like suffrage is a federal issue. I think that's because we know the 19th Amendment was eventually passed and the Voting Rights Act under LBJ which was a federal law also expanded the right to vote.

Bryan wrote: "The time suited Wilson. He could go and be alone and reflect on a answer or response. I think it is much faster and the stakes much higher ..."

By today's standards, I think the submarine attacks seem provacative enough to warrant something more than diplomatic response.

The two greatest impediments to America entering the War were the lack of readiness of the armed forces and an electorate eager to stay clear of 'entangling' alliances. In one sense, the slow back and forth of diplomatic cables bought time for Wilson to get the army and navy up to speed and to move public opinion away from a policy of absolute non-intervention. You get a sense that with the sinking of the Lusitania, the Sussex and the other ships, the public was applauding Wilson diplomacy because it struck the right balance of hawk and dove ('the double wish'), regardless of whether it might actually change German behavior. It's interesting to me that Cooper rarely uses 'isolationism' or 'pacificism' to characterize the anti-war sentiment. I expect there's a reason for this, but I would like to have heard more from the author on how the public regionally and perhaps by trade viewed the threat of war, 'west of the Alleghenies' . Washington does not make history in a vaccuum. In the early 20th century, the U.S. still had half its citizens living in rural areas where 'non-intervention' drew its largest support.

Tomerobber wrote: "With all this war baiting activity going on Wilson does find some solace in finalizing his relationship with Edith, so at least he has someone to confide in . . . maybe that was what influenced his..."

Great timing on your question, Tomerobber. I was about to do a glossary entry on the suffrage issue.

Wilson felt it was up to the states to decide on the issue and not bother with a federal mandate of a constitutional amendment. Yes, in the states like Wyoming, women could vote in federal elections, but in Virginia, no woman could. I guess it stems from a constitutional philosophy that Wilson had. It doesn't always jive, because he believed in stronger federal power, but for some reason, this issue he felt was states rights. Cooper hasn't fleshed this out well enough.

Theresa wrote: "Tomerobber, I agree that it sounds like suffrage is a federal issue. I think that's because we know the 19th Amendment was eventually passed and the Voting Rights Act under LBJ which was a federal ..."

Indeed, I think women wanted to have a uniform right across all states, so some supported a constitutional amendment. Some women had no vote, some had votes only at the municipal level, some just state level elections, it was all over the place.

FrankH wrote: "Bryan wrote: "The time suited Wilson. He could go and be alone and reflect on a answer or response. I think it is much faster and the stakes much higher ..."

By today's standards, I think the su..."

Great comments, Theresa and Frank. I agree, Wilson did seem to use the time he had to beef up the military. You also get a sense that his methods are popular with the exception of some folks like German immigrants and TR who was a hawk. But the military was not ready that is for sure.

This question also comes to mind:

What affect do you think with Bryan gone and Wilson not having full confidence in Lansing have on the president's decision making?

It is going to make Wilson second guess Lansing even more - at the very least not having effective sounding boards would make Wilson more uneasy or anybody else who has much on his or her plate.

The lack of a knee jerk reaction from Wilson over the sinking of the Lusitania is most telling of his character. The separating of himself from others and seeking his own council before listening to the saber rattlers or pacifist marks him as a man of peace. He knows or at least thinks he is the wisest of men and acts accordingly. His ability not to rush to war is a sign of maturity. This may be a result of his Mexican adventures and the profound effect the loss of human life had upon him. The more I read of this man the more I am becoming to believe in how great he really was.

I agree Clayton - he is a man of integrity even though he has his warts and flaws like anybody else. But I think you are on to something.

Thanks Bentley and Clayton. Making these kinds of decision is the reason we pay the POTUS the "big bucks." I am encouraged that Wilson still talks to his cabinet and he has good communication with Congress. There is growing partisanship, but he still talks to them.

The comment on page 304 where Thomas A. Edison asserted "I think the whole nation is convinced that we ought to be prepared, not for war, but for defense." is a bit disingenuous on the part of Wilson. I know it says it comes from an advisory board but I have to wonder if this idea did not originally come from Wilson to Secretary of the Navy Josephus Daniels and then on to Edison. By doing it this way Wilson could keep his option open and continue to play the delicate game of balancing that he was so adept at. This would disarm WJB on one hand and pacify the hawks on the other. If this is true he was certainly a genius at politics in this instance.

On the subject of Edith Galt I am amazed at the blindness Wilson shows towards the social climbing she displays. How she manages to weave herself into his life is simply masterful. She is indeed one cunning person. I have not read ahead so I am not sure of what role she plays later in politics but from what is written so far I can bet she will be a major factor in all major policy decision. Time will tell.

Thanks, Clayton. Cooper says that the allure of office helped Edith stay interested.

I think Wilson was good at trying to balance his message to keep neutrality and try to pacify both sides. There is a long tradition of disliking a large standing army in the U.S. until after WWII.

Was it more luck or skill that Wilson did not ignite a full war with Mexico?

Wislon certainly created a stir with his statement: “to proud to fight” (pg. 287).

House stated (pg. 303): “I thought if our plans carried true, the President [Wilson] would easily outrank any American that had yet lived; that the war was the greatest event in human history excepting the birth of Jesus Christ.”

Personally I’m very turned off from any political leader or government official who views war as a promotional tool to historical status.

Mark wrote: "Wislon certainly created a stir with his statement: “to proud to fight” (pg. 287)."

Yeah, that phrase got him into a trouble. It comes off as hubris and since he is moving to military preparedness, it makes his position harder.

Mark wrote: "House stated (pg. 303): “I thought if our plans carried true, the President [Wilson] would easily outrank any American that had yet lived; that the war was the greatest event in human history excep..."

Yeah, you get a sense House is a political animal, a senior adviser to the president (in today's language) that thinks up political strategy.

You get a sense Wilson is not served so well with House in foreign affairs and Lansing at the helm at State.

House does seem to support the league idea, though. We see in these chapters Wilson investing more of his emotional, intellectual, and political capital on this idea.

I had to laugh at Daniels quote (pg. 301)

Daniels later recalled that he recoiled at once from the "dangerous high and exalted mission of Minister Plenipotentiary and Envoy Extraordinary to the Court of Cupid .. in the performance of which my official head might suffer decapitation."

During this stressful time, a bit of humor is nice to read.

A great quote, Kathy.

Bryan wrote: "You get a sense Wilson is not served so well with House in foreign affairs and Lansing at the helm at State.."

House really seems less like the careful instrument of Wilson diplomacy and more like a loose cannon. I suspect that Wilson was not always sensitive to this due to their history and friendship.

I agree, Frank, I think the friendship blurred Wilson's judgement a bit. Edith saw more clearly than he did.

Bryan wrote: "Was it more luck or skill that Wilson did not ignite a full war with Mexico?"

While following along in this Wilson saga I've been reading a book about July 1914 and the thirty days before WWI. With each chapter the reader follows the foreign minsters of the major powers in Europe and their intercourse pre-August 1914. These ministers are acutely proficient in the language, history, politics and motivations of their counterparts. They every reason to appreciate actions and reactions, and the horrors that would result. Given all that, they proceed to pull the trigger.
Looking at Wilson / Mexico and Wilson's poor intelligence of Mexican affairs I'd vote that it was neither luck or skill that played a part. I would vote that the intangibles just didn't exist that pushes countries to war. Maybe the hatred, difference in religion, need to suppress or fear of suppression didn't exist at levels sufficient to pull this trigger.


July 1914: Countdown to War


Sean McMeekin

Thanks, Jim. Being across the ocean added some insulation to the whole thing, I think. The U.S. did not see the horror across a border.
.
If you have a book cover, you don't need to do a title link. If an author does not have a photo, just link it the author:

by Sean McMeekin

Tomerobber wrote: "With all this war baiting activity going on Wilson does find some solace in finalizing his relationship with Edith, so at least he has someone to confide in . . . maybe that was what influenced his..."

The Constitution leaves the organization of elections - including qualifications for voting - to the states. States still have different stipulations regarding voting rights, for instance, pertaining to those with criminal records. The 15th, 19th, and 26th Amendments restricted states' power to deny suffrage rights to certain groups of people without, however, denying states their constitutional jurisdiction over voting and elections - the flap over voter ID requirements being a recent reminder.

Excellent background, Mike, thank you.

It is another case of certain groups of people could not get a voice at the state level, so they turned to the Federal government.

Mike - thanks for that info . . . I see I have more reviewing to do.

I am late to the comments again but would note regarding the woman’ suffrage that voting was always “states rights” and that fight ended, legislatively anyway only the 60s and 70s of the last century. So it is logical to me that Wilson would have left this volatile issue to the states in this era.

Msg. 25 from Clayton – I didn’t get the impression that Edith was a “social climber” but rather a woman who fell in love, not to be corny, and shared her husband’s world in a way that both of them seem to have wanted and accepted.

Msg 27 Bryan – I have to think it was mostly skill and not luck that kept us and Wilson out of war with Mexico. War would have been easy to get into. The mention of his thought about the aggressive nature of our previous Mexican War reinforces that for me. And I agree with the conclusion of Jim in msg 37 that we didn’t reach a critical mass to start a war so that might be a “luck” consideration for the question.

A few other interesting things I noted in these chapters –

Page 293 – the recognition of the “other America outside the northeast” to sort of combine a couple of quotes. Still real today – guns, oil, god, and regulation resistance etc.– I think.

Page 294 end of para 1 – the remark about Bryan “He is absolutely sincere. That’s what makes him dangerous.” – brings me up to current when I (to me with my views) think of Mr. Ryan our last failing VP nominee.

It also stuck me as interesting, contrary to our reality today, pg. 328 “A few days later he drafted the Democratic platform…………..” - I wonder when the last time was that a Pres. candidate personally drafted a platform.

What an excellent point you make about woman's suffrage and the timing Vince.

Isn't it odd in the matters of the most personal affairs unless the woman or the man writes a tell all - you never know what went on behind closed doors or what the motivation was for a marriage. I guess it could have even have been a little bit of both.

I will leave any comment on msg 27 for Bryan upon his return.

Page 293 - yes it does sometimes feel that there are countries within countries and not states or areas within one country.

Without sounding political and this always will - I couldn't agree more about Mr. Ryan. It could be those eyes though (smile)

Vince, I can see that you think and I agree that Wilson was brilliant and probably one of the most brilliant and maybe the most brilliant to hold that office.

Great comments Vince as always.

Thanks Vince and all. Wilson, at this point, seemed to negotiate pretty well to stop the U.S. from getting deeper involved in Mexico. It must have frustrating for everyone not to find Villa.