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Roosevelt's Centurions
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11. ROOSEVELT'S CENTURIONS - CHAPTER TWELVE and THIRTEEN, (p. 241 - 265) ~ AUGUST 12TH - AUGUST 18TH; No Spoilers, Please
Chapter Overview and SummariesChapter 12 – The Home Front, p. 241 – 257
Black soldiers were segregated and relegated to non-combat roles. In 1939 black leaders urged FDR to appoint blacks to the Naval Academy and Air Corp training. Marshall defended the military segregation policy in a letter to Senator Henry Cabot Lodge. FDR meets with three civil rights leaders in the oval office. He showed a glimmer of support, but his press secretary Stephen Early told the press the civil rights leaders were content with the status quo. The Negro press accused FDR of hypocrisy. Within nine months, FDR issued executive order 8802 preventing discrimination by defense contracts and promoted to ranking officers. Marshall later expressed regret over how he handled the matter.
Eleanor urged FDR to open the military to women. Congresswoman Edith Nourse Rogers introduced a bill in 1942 to establish a women’s auxiliary corps and was met with objection about women were not suited for such tasks. Marshall embraced the idea as an opportunity to pull men away from desk jobs and into combat roles. The bill passed, but the ranks paid less than the men’s ranks and there were many other restrictions on what the women could do. Within a year, there were 250,000 women serving in the WAAC. The Auxiliary designation was dropped and the WAC became a regular component of the Army. Eleanor was instrumental in urging the Navy to create the WAVES and the marines and Coast Guard followed suit. The women air force service pilots (WASPS) flew non-combat missions delivering planes and goods. Despite their success and contributions, Hap Arnold cut the program under pressure. He admitted a belief that airplane pilots were jealous and worried about what would happen after the war.
The White House was taking on trappings of a bunker with gas masks and sand buckets and shovels for firefighting strewn about in the event of an emergency. FDR now had a rail car outfitted with wire and radio transmitters and personal effects. The rail car had a secret departure location from under the Bureau of Engraving and Printing so as to obscure the travels of the President.
FDR drafted and delivered a speech to the American people about the geography of the battlefront. He also thought it his role to boost morale of the American people, using his charm with the media.
Qualifying men in uniform was challenging as many suffered health issues brought on during the depression. Marshall lobbied Congress to lower the age of conscription to 18. The business of war supply manufacturing lifted the American economy out of depression. Marshall enlists a young Frank Capra to create documentaries portraying the virtues of being a soldier at war to boost morale. FDR planted the seeds for the GI bill supporting post-war education benefits for soldiers.
Construction begins on the Pentagon in late 1941. The effort was led by an engineer, Colonel Leslie Groves. Albert Einstein writes a letter to FDR about the powers of a new weapon – the atomic bomb. A sometimes confidant of FDR, Alexander Sachs, delivers the letter to FDR which warned that Germany now possessed the necessary uranium. FDR meets with scientific advisors to discuss if the US could produce an atomic bomb, on the day before Pearl Harbor. Within a few months, the Manhattan Project was started with Leslie Groves to lead it. He meets and enlists a young physicist, J. Robert Oppenheimer. Land is procured in New Mexico at the site of a former boys school in Los Alamos to use for the project.
FDR proposes the GI Bill, passing unanimously, paving the way for veterans to secure home and business loans, unemployment and education benefits. It was a huge boon to education and post-war employment opportunities.
Chapter 13 – Unconditional Surrender, p. 258 – 265
January 1942 FDR has been planning a meeting of the big three, but Stalin declined to stay close to the home front during the battle for Stalingrad. FDR embarks on the trip to Casablanca to meet Churchill. The journey took five days and was largely by air, and marked only the second time FDR flew anywhere. FDR, Churchill, and their staffs and advisors dined together and were joined by Roosevelt’s and Churchill’s sons. Patton was responsible for security at Casablanca. Eisenhower arrives at Casablanca the day after the President. Marshall had been urging FDR to promote Ike to a four star general, but FDR was impatient for the North Africa campaign to end. Ike would eventually get his four star designation. Ike meets with Churchill at Casablanca and learns that Churchill wants to next invade Sicily. “Churchill’s obsession with Sicily, Eisenhower sensed, would prompt another battle for FDR’s soul.” (p. 263) Kay Summersby, Ike’s driver, makes an appearance at Casablanca, and she attends a picnic with Franklin Jr., although she is generally not welcome by Marshall and others.
Marshall and his joint chief colleagues met with the British colleagues to discuss the next invasion plans and were surprised to learn of Churchill’s plan to invade Sicily rather than mainland Europe, again delaying the cross-channel invasion. FDR accepts the Sicily plan. FDR decides he wants to visit the battlefront and is taken in a jeep pasts companies of surprised soldiers to an Army field kitchen where he dines with soldiers.
FDR's executive order banning discrimination in employment by defense contractors was a step in addressing the concerns of the black civil rights leaders, yet there was still segregation in the military ranks in terms of combat assignments and training. Are you surprised that Marshall is not open to the idea of black men in combat, given the challenges of having enough soldiers?
Alisa wrote: "FDR's executive order banning discrimination in employment by defense contractors was a step in addressing the concerns of the black civil rights leaders, yet there was still segregation in the mil..."Not really. Given the culture of the day, Marshall felt it was 'not the time for critical experiments'. Women in the military faced similar hurdles (and still do). But for Eleanor Roosevelt and her circle, I doubt any progress would have been made.
In the last section there were discussions about how circumspect the press was with regard to FDR's disability. But, at the end of this section we learn that the President had a meal with some of the troops. They certainly saw that he was carried, and probably communicated back home about this. And yet, it was not 'front page' news. There was more to the lack of coverage focusing on FDR's physical state than just a respectful press. I think it was a respectful nation.
There were many people in the country that didn't even know that the President was disabled, not that it would have made any difference. But it indicates the difference in the media back then and the media now. The President can't burp now without it being reported!
G, I agree with you about Eleanor. I am glad to see the feisty first lady inserting herself. I love it that she left FDR a daily memo in his inbox every morning with her ideas! She certainly did not seem like the type of person to hold back her opinions. FDR had a big personality, and here we see Eleanor flexing her influence. I applaud her for sticking her neck out at a time when few women enjoyed positions of leadership or influence. It must have been challenging to do that, and a little bit lonely. What do you think?
Jill wrote: "There were many people in the country that didn't even know that the President was disabled, not that it would have made any difference. But it indicates the difference in the media back then and t..."There was a lot of hiding his disability but it was not a complete secret. My impressions from what we have read so far is that FDR was comfortable navigating his physical limitations but did not seem terribly shy about it either. He was not afraid to let Churchill see him like this.
I think Eleanor grew a lot as a person during FDR's presidency. It gave her a chance to take on her own causes. It probably felt lonely at times, but I think she was passionate about civil rights.
Bryan wrote: "I think Eleanor grew a lot as a person during FDR's presidency. It gave her a chance to take on her own causes. It probably felt lonely at times, but I think she was passionate about civil rights."The White House is isolating enough, and she took on some unpopular causes. As a First Lady with a mind of her own it must be difficult to walk a fine line of how much and with which causes she could get involved without jeopardizing FDR's positions or policies. It's a tough job.
So true, Alisa. There was a serious political high-wire to navigate.
Bryan wrote: "So true, Alisa. There was a serious political high-wire to navigate."It must be for all of them, at least those who choose to be involved in things like health care reform - Hillary. But I digress. Still, a challenge.
Bryan wrote: "I think Eleanor grew a lot as a person during FDR's presidency. It gave her a chance to take on her own causes. It probably felt lonely at times, but I think she was passionate about civil rights."She was particularly involved in West Virginia and the health of the miners and their families in the coal camps. A brave stand in those days when the coal companies ruled and UMW President John L. Lewis was king.
I think that Eleanor was indeed a lonely woman since it appears that the marriage was less than perfect. Her strength of character came to the forefront as First Lady and her involvement in social causes was admirable although risky.
FDR was very fond of his routine cocktail hour, which often included White House guests such as Churchill. I wonder if Eleanor was invited to participate and if so how much did the First Lady engage in the conversation.
FDR certainly entertained regularly at the WH and Hyde Park. I have to think that Eleanor was present, along with the plethora of other guests. I guess the question would be to what extent she participated in after dinner conversation, and how much those conversations were segregated when it came to conversation of more serious matters. Good question.
I get the impression she was too busy for many dinners. Her list of committee memberships were long, she traveled, gave speeches, worked on civilian defense, and wrote newspaper columns just to name a few.
She was an independant woman ahead of her time I think. An interesting First Lady.
Alisa wrote: "FDR's executive order banning discrimination in employment by defense contractors was a step in addressing the concerns of the black civil rights leaders, yet there was still segregation in the mil..."Marshall was a good man but was shaped by the times in which he lived regarding integrating black and white troops. He and the other generals believed that the black troops performed poorly in WWI (although the reason for that belief was not explained) and had no expectations that the situation as they perceived it had changed. This quote by Lt. General Robert Lee Bullard (pg 242) "Our government seemed to expect the same of them as of white men. Poor Negroes! They are hopelessly inferior........" paints the picture of race relations of the time and even though more troops were needed in white regiments, blacks were not acceptable. In my opinion, this was not strictly a Southern attitude but more of a white elitist attitude.
It is the self fulfilling profecy of the white elitist of the time, as you point out. There is no logic to the argument, since black soldiers were apparently banned from combat roles so there is no measure of performance. Ridiculous. We know now the Tuskegee Airmen were heros and overcame the attitudes and policies that held others back in the military. So what did Marshall regret and when did he express it? Not clear in the book.
I think it is even more disturbing that FDR thought the country could "back into" integration in the Army but that since in the Navy the men would have to live aboard ship together, it was unacceptable, unless, he joked, you "could have a northern ship and a southern ship". (pg. 243) I was disappointed in his response and that he felt he could joke about it.
Jill I could not agree more. Hard to fathom. It is a good example of how misguided decisions have terrible consequences.
On page 256, chapter 12, we are told that "The GI Bill prompted an educational revolution." It's easy to forget how uncommon a college degree was before the war...and how popular and prevalent it became afterwards. We can often take for granted that an education and the opportunities that come with it are available for all...and that it was not always the case. In spite of an imperfect world, we live in a time of great blessing.
Alisa wrote: "Jill I could not agree more. Hard to fathom. It is a good example of how misguided decisions have terrible consequences."This where Eleanor comes in as she supported more rights for blacks. But it wasn't enough to persuade FDR. You wonder if FDR had the muscle to push the military brass to change if he wanted it. Probably, but they would be grumbling.
Lewis wrote: "On page 256, chapter 12, we are told that "The GI Bill prompted an educational revolution." It's easy to forget how uncommon a college degree was before the war...and how popular and prevalent it b..."The GI Bill was amazing, truly brilliant. The whole college landscape changed, a real game changer. For all of us who went to college, we thank you FDR.
It is fascinating to see how fast the Manhattan Project got underway. I think it illustrates a visionary FDR and his strong persuasion.I keep returning to this particular presidential power of persuasion, since they are others, but FDR had it in spades.
Lewis wrote: "On page 256, chapter 12, we are told that "The GI Bill prompted an educational revolution." It's easy to forget how uncommon a college degree was before the war...and how popular and prevalent it b..."I think this not only changed the nature of education but the workforce. It really is quite remarkable, and opened a path to higher education that many would not otherwise have had. That, in turn, would certainly open up career opportunities to people who otherwise would not have had the education. The industrial manufacturing supporting the war effort was not going to last forever, and the thought of soldiers returning from battle with diminishing trade jobs would have been a problem. It seemed to also turn the thought of higher education as a right. Huge sea change.
Bryan wrote: "It is fascinating to see how fast the Manhattan Project got underway. I think it illustrates a visionary FDR and his strong persuasion.I keep returning to this particular presidential power of ..."
It certainly seemed to quickly change his thinking about conventional warfare. FDR seemed like a very creative thinker.
I thought that the basis of FDR's Washington's birthday radio address in which he spoke of the places where battles were being fought and asked people to get out their maps so that they could relate to where our troops were, was brilliant.(pg 248). Those places are familiar to us now but who knew about the isolated islands of the Pacific in those days. I am sure that this personal touch further endeared him to the people since it involved the listeners.
Jill wrote: "people to get out their maps so that they could relate to where our troops were, was brilliant.(pg 248). Those places are familiar to us now but who knew about the isolated islands of the Pacific in those days. .."This was a great learning exercise by held by FDR. In the 1940’s the grasp of world geography by most military officers (general's may be an exception) was no different than the public. When given an assignment to a remote location they usually had no clue where they were headed until they could view a map. Today the world seems much smaller.
On a side note, I thought it was interesting that Persico uses the chapter he calls 'Home Front' to highlight the segregation of Blacks and the exclusion/minimization of women in the military, whereas the term 'home front' in Britain had an altogether more noble meaning.
Mark wrote: "Jill wrote: "people to get out their maps so that they could relate to where our troops were, was brilliant.(pg 248). Those places are familiar to us now but who knew about the isolated islands of ..."In an age without the Internet and twitter, it brought the nature of the global community home. It allowed the US to see that people in these parts of the world were not really so far apart from us. It was, as Jill said, brilliant. I wonder if this was his idea, solely. He does seem to understand the American people and, going to one of Persico's themes, motivated and inspired a people at war.
By now the FDR fireside chats are quite popular so he had a captive audience. He used the press and his charm shrewdly. It was another way to flex his commander muscle by rallying the American people to his position. Brilliant indeed.
G wrote: "On a side note, I thought it was interesting that Persico uses the chapter he calls 'Home Front' to highlight the segregation of Blacks and the exclusion/minimization of women in the military, wher..."I was surprised that chapter did not include more detail about the other efforts undertaken by the American people to support the war - saving scrap metal, women entering the workforce in record numbers, etc. perhaps he was sticking to military themes. He was sticking to US activity.
Mod
Not to mention ration stamps, gas rationing, blackouts, etc. Like you, Alisa, I think he intended to stick to strictly military/political activities but those home front activities were a major part of the war effort and its odd he didn't mention them.
Mod
Leslie Groves was not a scientist so he knew he needed a physicist to head up the science module of the Manhattan Project. I felt that, although Robert Oppenheimer was no doubt brilliant, it was a little chancy to choose him due to his family connections to the Communist Party. Even though Russia was our ally and the "red scare" had not really taken hold at this point, I would have thought that Groves' decision would have been overridden because of the distrust of the Communists and their agenda.
Interesting Jill, certainly plausible. What struck me about this situation was how easily people were brought into the fold of sensitive projects. In some ways it reminds me of current day Washington, it's who you know and the connections you make. Leslie Groves seems like he was viewed as an apt administrator and someone who could make things happen. His encounter with Oppenheimer almost seem like he fell into finding a brilliant physicist.
I wonder if they had any idea what horror they were about to unleash? The project was based on a theory by Einstein that it would work but they couldn't have known to what extent or that there would be after effects such as the radiation sickness that killed thousands. It was a decision that changed the face of war forever.
Balancing the fear of what would happen if the technology was developed by the Germans, I am sure it was the only option at the time. You cannot combat what you don't know. Science can be used for good or evil, and the unknown is probably the scariest aspect of it all. What are the alternatives?
I'm not saying that the decision was wrong because, of course, the Nazis were also experimenting with nuclear fission. Can you imagine if Hitler had the first nuclear bomb.....it is beyond imagining. It had to be done but what a chance we took!
Well, we probably would not be here to discuss it. Frightening.
Alisa wrote: "Interesting Jill, certainly plausible. What struck me about this situation was how easily people were brought into the fold of sensitive projects. In some ways it reminds me of current day Washin..."I don't remember the book in detail, but I do remember that while reading
American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer I was amazed that Groves chose Oppenheimer given the knowledge he had of Oppenheimer's convoluted personal life. Apparently, it had to do with his ability to build a lab, which he did do first while at Cal Tech and then again at Berkeley. Another book which describes Oppenheimers ability to manage not only scientists, but staff is listed below. I thought both were terrific. This is another example of FDR choosing people who can choose people to get the job done. I am constantly amazed at the mans perspicacity.
by
Kai Bird
by Jennet Conant (no photo)
Alisa wrote: "Well, we probably would not be here to discuss it. Frightening."I think one of the reasons the Second World War fascinates me is because of the incredible serendipity (there has got to be a better word, one with more gravity but I can't think of it) which brought these unique people together under one roof, so to speak. In this book, I am seeing all the overlapping spheres of interaction. What are the chances of that happening within a defined time period as this was? What brought these unique talents together in this time and place?
Great additions G. It really does highlight FDR's ability to choose those who get the job done.
G wrote: "Alisa wrote: "Well, we probably would not be here to discuss it. Frightening."I think one of the reasons the Second World War fascinates me is because of the incredible serendipity (there has go..."
At every step of the way. It is an uncanny coincidence, and a unique point in time that brought these people together and brought out the qualities in them that allowed them to persevere.
G wrote: "I was amazed that Groves chose Oppenheimer given the knowledge he had of Oppenheimer's convoluted personal life..."The nation’s top physicist, Nobel recipient Ernest Lawrence, was the first choice of most to head the Manhattan Project, but he could not be taken away from his current duties with the uranium 235 atomic component at the Oak Ridge Lab in Tennessee. Oppenheimer said he would cut all communist ties while devoted to the project and this along with the backing of Lawrence sealed the deal with Groves.
The Pentagon, which had just been built and staffed with layers of overseers along with J. Edgar Hoover in his prime as head of the FBI, in addition to Groves, would continue to keep tabs on Oppenheimer. What a whirlwind time.
Pages 37-39
by Jennet Conant (no photo)
Thanks for that info, Mark. And you can bet that Hoover kept tabs on Oppenheimer!!!!!I think I have to read a little more about Oppenheimer since it appears that he was a very complex individual.
As we end this week's assignment, I have to re-mention one of the great FDR programs that was touched upon by earlier posts......the GI Bill. What a stroke of genius which "rewarded", if you will, those who were fighting across the globe and would have returned to a country that could not offer them much more than what they had when they left. This bill which was passed unanimously by both Houses was more than just for education...it also covered loans for homes and unemployment compensation. It not only strengthened the economy but showed that the US cared for its veterans, something that we have sometimes forgotten in recent years.
The GI Bill did a lot for veterans as well as the country. Very smart.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
109 East Palace: Robert Oppenheimer and the Secret City of Los Alamos (other topics)American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer (other topics)
109 East Palace: Robert Oppenheimer and the Secret City of Los Alamos (other topics)
Roosevelt's Centurions: FDR & the Commanders He Led to Victory in World War II (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jennet Conant (other topics)Kai Bird (other topics)
Jennet Conant (other topics)
Joseph E. Persico (other topics)
For the week of August 12, 2013 - August 18, 2013, we are reading Chapter TWELVE and THIRTEEN, (p. 241 - 265) of Roosevelt's Centurions: FDR & the Commanders He Led to Victory in World War II.
This week's reading assignment is:
Week Eleven - August 12th - August 18th -> Chapter TWELVE and THIRTEEN, p. 241 - 265 - TWELVE - The Home Front and THIRTEEN - Unconditional Surrender
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off on May 28th (the day the book is released officially). We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on August 12th. We offer a special thank you to Random House for their generosity.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Alisa will be leading this discussion.
Welcome,
~ Alisa
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
(Part One) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
(Part Two) http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Q&A with Joseph
Please as you are reading post questions to the author's Q&A thread because Joseph Persico will be looking in periodically and will be posting answers to your questions and will be available for a chat. We are very fortunate that he is making time to spend with us.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...